Incarnate System: an insult to skilled players
By
AzureSkyCiel,
Posted on: 2010-12-04 02:53 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Well, almost right, not with a British accent but Texan. ;-)|
Originally Posted by Olympus_NA
As I was reading the thread I was visualizing Fritzy running around in-game screaming "YOU ARE UNWORTHY!!!" in a british accent
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Really, are you not running around screaming "YOU ARE UNWORTHY" to all those mass produced, monkey birthed, RNG blessed AE 50's? There are some players not worthy to become Incarnates. Think of the Lore and I'll bet you'll agree with me.
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It doesn't take skill to roll a character with one of the overpowered sets and then IO them out o.O
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Skilled players are the ones running the taskforces OR soloing at x8 difficulty doing things.
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Mew
... with an opening post like that... there's only one thing to do...
To the Scrubs Youtube Clips!
I choose you Pain Chart for Yet Another #10!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rWs_tncktU
I choose you Dr. Cox's No for How many ways can I just say no to what the OP said
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zNjQecyjE8
And for the last, but not least, I choose Dr. Cox yet again with Wrong Wrong Wrong!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY
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Not really. The RNG is not that harsh; I managed to get my first Incarnate Common after just one TF; Had enough VG merits for the G'rai matter, got the Nictus Fragment from the ITF and enough shards to make the Hero 1 sample. |
Originally Posted by Fritzy
That's truly funny. :-)
But, I've a point and you know it. |
And, well...I don't know any of the peeps I run with who are insulted. And some of them are pretty skilled players.
It's really not that huge an issue.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Nope, I'm not, I'm enjoying the game and honestly I've done A LOT of tfs since I19 went live and not once did a "monkey birthed" player do anything to negatively affect us, everyone pays for this game and they are entitled to the content as much as anyone, my only problem is that players (New and Old, Noob and Veteran) need to read the guides to the system, or give us players who understand the system a bind that facepalms players who have fifty questions about the system with a pop up guide :P
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Originally Posted by Fritzy
Really, are you not running around screaming "YOU ARE UNWORTHY" to all those mass produced, monkey birthed, RNG blessed AE 50's? There are some players not worthy to become Incarnates. Think of the Lore and I'll bet you'll agree with me.
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Maybe it's just me, but I read this, and the subtext that immediately jumps out at me is "I can't get Incarnate components because I'm such a poisonously vituperative jerk that I can't make it through a TF before the leader kicks me if I even get invited to a TF team at all, so the way the devs set it up to work is the absolutely worst way to do it." Well, neither we nor the devs are making you play; if the changes to the game are so horribly repugnant, feel free to vote with your feet and leave... just don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out.
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Originally Posted by Fritzy
2. I am concerned about the lazy programming that we seem to be heading towards with the future of the Incarnate System. Indications are that the future holds nothing but Raids involving many players. This means that the programming staff only need to create a couple of new TF's for each Incarnate slot release and throw them out to the user base while letting the RNG determine who gets the good stuff and who doesn't. Skilled players not required.
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
In case you missed the main point of my OP, I think something as important to the future of the game should be based on principles more profound than those relying on the RNG and Luck. Ramiel's Arc to open the Alpha Slot was a foundation that should be built upon instead of becoming an important but isolated mission.
In real life, I am the father of two grown kids and the proud grandfather of two wonderful children. I raised my kids with purpose and direction and they are succeed in life and the work place.
Imagine how those kids would have turned out if, at every important point in their life, I rolled the dice and solely allowed RNG processes to determine their fate. Progressing in the Incarnate System is no less important to this game than how the rearing of children is to their futures. We want those future Incarnates to be skilled, tested and proven worthy to claim the title and the huge reliance on RNG processes that is in place now is NOT the way to achieve that goal.
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Good thing this is JUST A GAME then, eh? Also, did you know you can get shards from Rikti Invasions? Just got 3 in Talos |
Originally Posted by Fritzy
In case you missed the main point of my OP, I think something as important to the future of the game should be based on principles more profound than those relying on the RNG and Luck. Ramiel's Arc to open the Alpha Slot was a foundation that should be built upon instead of becoming an important but isolated mission.
In real life, I am the father of two grown kids and the proud grandfather of two wonderful children. I raised my kids with purpose and direction and they are succeed in life and the work place. Imagine how those kids would have turned out if, at every important point in their life, I rolled the dice and solely allowed RNG processes to determine their fate. Progressing in the Incarnate System is no less important to this game than how the rearing of children is to their futures. We want those future Incarnates to be skilled, tested and proven worthy to claim the title and the huge reliance on RNG processes that is in place now is NOT the way to achieve that goal. |
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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Truth be told very little in CoH actually takes 'skill'. |
Originally Posted by Rosen_ice
It doesn't take skill to roll a character with one of the overpowered sets and then IO them out o.O
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It comes down to build and which AT you are.
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... Guys. He's serious. Laugh harder.
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Originally Posted by Fritzy
That's truly funny. :-)
But, I've a point and you know it. |
Goodbye. Not to the game, but the players. Goodbye. Everyone, remember to have fun. That's all I can say.
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Sorry, but;|
Originally Posted by Fritzy
Imagine how those kids would have turned out if, at every important point in their life, I rolled the dice and solely allowed RNG processes to determine their fate. Progressing in the Incarnate System is no less important to this game than how the rearing of children is to their futures. We want those future Incarnates to be skilled, tested and proven worthy to claim the title and the huge reliance on RNG processes that is in place now is NOT the way to achieve that goal.
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Real Life=! Game
It just...no. Sorry.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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While I admire your candor this would never make for a profitable MMO, it would detract a lot of players and would more than likely cause them to leave.
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Originally Posted by Fritzy
Incarnate System: an insult to skilled players
1. Using the RNG (Random Number Generator) to distribute Incarnate Shards puts them in the hands of undeserving players and can deny the shards to worthy players. Randomness should not be used to determine who obtains Incarnate boosts but should be rewarded to those who succesfully demonstrate mastery of their individual skills. Individual players need to have their skills tested before being rewarded with something as important as an Incarnate Shard. Using the same type RNG system as is used to determine the pick of real world lottery and slot machine numbers is an insult to the Incarnate System and the Incarnate characters. Skill, not luck, should determine who becomes an Incarnate. 2. I am concerned about the lazy programming that we seem to be heading towards with the future of the Incarnate System. Indications are that the future holds nothing but Raids involving many players. This means that the programming staff only need to create a couple of new TF's for each Incarnate slot release and throw them out to the user base while letting the RNG determine who gets the good stuff and who doesn't. Skilled players not required. Look at the new content for Incarnates in issue 19. Two new difficult TF's...and that's it. Let the grind begin as these two TF's (and the others that give Incarnate rewards) are farmed over and over again by every type of PUG that can be assembled. Surely, the programming staff and management of this game can do better than that to weed out those deserving to be Incarnates from those not so worthy. 3. The Incarnate System should be totally skill based throughout. There are multiple ways this could be implemented but I will suggest two: a. Create a huge arc wtih Ramiel as the primary contact where the rewards at the end of each mission is a Shard and the reward at the end of the arc is a Component. Each mission would fit with the Incarnate lore and would reveal more as the arc progresses. Missions could be done in teams or individually with equal rewards for a successful (not auto) completion. Arc could be repeated via Ourobouros. b. Create a large, related series of Shard missions that are offered randomly to level 50 players who have opened the Alpha slot. A similar system is already in game offering TIP missions and a Shard Mission system could be derived from that programming. Yes, it would take a lot of work to create quality missions but this game deserves to have that work done so that individual players have a fair chance to demonstrate their skills to the esteemed Incarnates like Statesman and Lord Recluse. 4. RNG based rewards inevitably leads to incessant grinding which, most players will acknowledge, is the bane of any MMO game. Skilled players want content and massive amounts of meaningful content that provides them with a story line they can follow and be rewarded accordingly at the end for their diligence in completing it. Unskilled players just want the rewards without the thoughtful work and those players should not be Incarnates. 5. The Incarnate System could and should be much more individually testing that what it is and seems to be headed for in future releases. As it is now, the laziest, most unskilled players can join a TF PUG and be rewarded richly while more highly skilled players receive far fewer rewards (or none at all). In the lore of comic super heroes, the lesser skilled pretenders fail while the more highly skilled ones succeed. Allowing the RNG to determine who moves forward and who lags behind runs counter to everthing super hero lore is based upon. Summary: Even with the first inteeration of the Incarnate System, the players deserve better and more than what has been done to this point. Allowing the RNG to control the system is an insult to the player base and to the Incarnate characters and lore. Change the thinking soon or risk the system crashing into disuse due its denial of skilled players the challenges and rewards they so richly deserve. |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Oh no, i think there is skill... it is how you play your AT and go beyond what powers you picked.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Truth be told very little in CoH actually takes 'skill'.
It comes down to build and which AT you are. |
The skill part is about what the player is doing, not what the character is automatically doing. The blaster who uses his caltrops in the right place at the right time... the healer who manages a spread out team with heavy damage... a controller targeting the right monsters and snapping off just in time to mez the boss that almost makes it to the squishy.
I was with a tanker running ITF who had a strong character. He could run around and nothing on the mission could hurt him. So, that is exactly what he did, he ran around attacking what he wanted and ignored everyone else. He would leave the group behind and leave things to ravage the rest of the team (he didn't taunt off of them, or even seem aware / care of what was on the rest of his team). This was a bad and unskilled player (even though his character could sit there AFK in the middle of a mob).
*sigh* some people have a crazy idea of what "skill" is. They go into pvp with an assassin and push the "har har, I keel you" button and think they are "l33t hot stuffz". Or jump into a mob and mash the massive area attack button to kill everything, thinking they rock the house. They are a little dilusional... but at least it makes them feel better to think they are super skilled players and that is why things are so easy?
Doooood! you should have seen my skill during the first incarnate mission! I was taking down tons of arch villains SOLO! BOOYAH!
Mew
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ok, heres the deal, the rng just isnt there to distribute reward but also to prevent it. we get exploits, a lot, every game does, but if the game is set up to give a cookie every time someone presses a button, then someone is going to crack the button, get cookies tot he point of absurdity, break any meaning of the system and turn the whole thing into a joke, it happens, rng helps hold that back a bit, turning the system into something called an intermittent schedule of rewards. in behavioral sciences this is a preferable reward setting because the uncertainty of rewards actually reinforces a conditioned behavior, whereas the direct rewards system(ok not remembering the exact terminology on that one) leads to satiation and fatigue. in layman's terms, they get bored because there is no surprise or chance of a big payoff. |
Originally Posted by Fritzy
In case you missed the main point of my OP, I think something as important to the future of the game should be based on principles more profound than those relying on the RNG and Luck. Ramiel's Arc to open the Alpha Slot was a foundation that should be built upon instead of becoming an important but isolated mission.
In real life, I am the father of two grown kids and the proud grandfather of two wonderful children. I raised my kids with purpose and direction and they are succeed in life and the work place. Imagine how those kids would have turned out if, at every important point in their life, I rolled the dice and solely allowed RNG processes to determine their fate. Progressing in the Incarnate System is no less important to this game than how the rearing of children is to their futures. We want those future Incarnates to be skilled, tested and proven worthy to claim the title and the huge reliance on RNG processes that is in place now is NOT the way to achieve that goal. |
so yeah, beyond the incredible absurdity of people's continual assertion that being able to game a fairly simple mechanic of a video game demonstrates any kind of real "skill" there are significant design issues that the rng is being used to alleviate. i am forced to find your argument unconvincing.
i do like your idea of the incarnate tip missions, but just because i would love to see the lore fleshed out more by them, realistically i do not see it happening.
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all it takes to be a "worthy player" is $14.95 a month.|
Originally Posted by Fritzy
Incarnate System: an insult to skilled players
1. Using the RNG (Random Number Generator) to distribute Incarnate Shards puts them in the hands of undeserving players and can deny the shards to worthy players. |
your money's no better than anyone elses, so suck it up buttercup.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Wow, must be the weekend already.
Fritzy, well there's just not enough coke in my glass to fully snork all over my laptop, so let me get a fresh one and start over.
Ya'll have a great weekend and enjoy yourselves!
Comic and Hero/Villain Culture
Saturday January 29th, 2005 (12:37 PM) ~ Monday August 9th, 2010
Those Who Lived It Will Remember Long after your Ban Hammer Crumbles and the servers flicker dead.
We Will Remember This One Moment In Time! ~ Shadow Ravenwolf
Wow there's a cupcake runnin around who's just full of hisself....and cream filling to boot!
Fritzy, the only point you're making is one of these two:
a. You're making a point about how you're an incredibly self-absorbed individual who believe that some abstract notion of superiority in a video game should not be awarded to players who are "not worthy" or "undeserving", which only raises the question...are you implying you're somehow worth "more" than other players, and that you are entitled to just rewards because of it, whereas other players are not based on some ridiculous mindset that you have to makes you superior to others?
or,
b. You're a happy troll!!!
Even if you do have any actual complaint about the game mechanics, the tone of your original post is so ridiculous that I doubt anyone would bother looking past the condescending statements regarding player worth.
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Actually, I was hearing this...|
Originally Posted by Olympus_NA
As I was reading the thread I was visualizing Fritzy running around in-game screaming "YOU ARE UNWORTHY!!!" in a british accent
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Originally Posted by Fritzy
Not so. During solo play only, I've Crafted my first Common and have 2 shards towards the uncommon; 2 Gr'ai Matter stored and 500 V-Merits towards whatever they need to be used for in the future. The fact is...I've been Lucky. And reliance on pure, dumb Luck is what I want to see reduced in the Incarnate system.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
all it takes to be a "worthy player" is $14.95 a month.
your money's no better than anyone elses, so suck it up buttercup. |
Yeah, ok, so don't let the "unworthy" team with you, then you will only be sharing your precious precious shard drops with those who are "worthy" of them.
Of course if you were truly worthy you'd be doing these TFs all by yourself and sharing the drops with no one. Obviously they're not worthy of your precious precious Incarnate stuff. They can limp along trying to collect shards at +0/x1 or repeatedly failing to bring down Imperious. This is WAI, I guess.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Once the entire incarnate system is released, i wonder how long it'ld take to level a brand new 50 character all the way through it 
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
I was expecting some stupidity about elitism when I19 launched, but this is from a totally unexpected angle
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Well if each unlock is mission based and doesn't require the other slot to be in use you might have two commons or 1 uncommon in use by the end. That should make most characters power full enough to do level 50 content at a higher difficulty so they can get a lot more frequent shard drops.
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Originally Posted by EU_Damz
Once the entire incarnate system is released, i wonder how long it'ld take to level a brand new 50 character all the way through it
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But, I've a point and you know it.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel