Incarnate System: an insult to skilled players
By
AzureSkyCiel,
Posted on: 2010-12-04 02:53 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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As a skilled player, I feel that your attempting to co-opt my opinion is an insult to me.|
Originally Posted by Fritzy
Incarnate System: an insult to skilled players
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| 1. Using the RNG (Random Number Generator) to distribute Incarnate Shards puts them in the hands of undeserving players and can deny the shards to worthy players. Randomness should not be used to determine who obtains Incarnate boosts but should be rewarded to those who succesfully demonstrate mastery of their individual skills. |
Shards are basic building blocks in the Incarnate system. They're jumped-up invention salvage. Do you begrudge people who get a Chronal Skip when you get a Temporal Tracer or nothing?
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| Individual players need to have their skills tested before being rewarded with something as important as an Incarnate Shard. Using the same type RNG system as is used to determine the pick of real world lottery and slot machine numbers is an insult to the Incarnate System and the Incarnate characters. Skill, not luck, should determine who becomes an Incarnate. |
Once the Incarnate slot is open, they are as eligible and "worthy" as anyone else to receive incarnate salvage.
Moreover, it's not WHOLLY random. Remember that you get Incarnate drops as an option at the end of various TFs as well.
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| 2. I am concerned about the lazy programming that we seem to be heading towards with the future of the Incarnate System. Indications are that the future holds nothing but Raids involving many players. This means that the programming staff only need to create a couple of new TF's for each Incarnate slot release and throw them out to the user base while letting the RNG determine who gets the good stuff and who doesn't. Skilled players not required. |
Again, raids are merely one of MYRIAD options available for obtaining shards.
You can raid.
You can TF.
You can mish.
You can "street" hunt in high level zones.
As for "skilled players", you don't even know what the hell you're talking about. You're assigning some arbitrary value to it based on YOU and the fact you consider yourself a skilled player.
As someone else who considers themselves a skilled player, I take this opportunity to offer you the digitus impudicus.
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| Look at the new content for Incarnates in issue 19. Two new difficult TF's...and that's it. Let the grind begin as these two TF's (and the others that give Incarnate rewards) are farmed over and over again by every type of PUG that can be assembled. Surely, the programming staff and management of this game can do better than that to weed out those deserving to be Incarnates from those not so worthy. |
SELF ENTITLEMENT? MUCH?
Seriously. Who the hell do you think you are? And who appointed your snobbish posterior as the arbitor of "worthiness"? And what kinda drugs were you whacked up on when this happened?
More importantly, what kinda drugs were you whacked up on when you actually posted this piece of drivel to the forums?
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| 3. The Incarnate System should be totally skill based throughout. |
YeahNO!
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| a. Create a huge arc wtih Ramiel as the primary contact where the rewards at the end of each mission is a Shard and the reward at the end of the arc is a Component. Each mission would fit with the Incarnate lore and would reveal more as the arc progresses. Missions could be done in teams or individually with equal rewards for a successful (not auto) completion. Arc could be repeated via Ourobouros. |
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| b. Create a large, related series of Shard missions that are offered randomly to level 50 players who have opened the Alpha slot. A similar system is already in game offering TIP missions and a Shard Mission system could be derived from that programming. Yes, it would take a lot of work to create quality missions but this game deserves to have that work done so that individual players have a fair chance to demonstrate their skills to the esteemed Incarnates like Statesman and Lord Recluse. |
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| 4. RNG based rewards inevitably leads to incessant grinding which, most players will acknowledge, is the bane of any MMO game. |
Normally I'd have to run an ITF with my Fire/Rads group to get one where we just marched through and killed anything in our paths (as opposed to speeding it).
I've now been on three in the last several days. It's changing the game away from solely speeding it for maximum merit generation. As such, I'm happy about that.
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| Skilled players want content and massive amounts of meaningful content that provides them with a story line they can follow and be rewarded accordingly at the end for their diligence in completing it. Unskilled players just want the rewards without the thoughtful work and those players should not be Incarnates. |
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| 5. The Incarnate System could and should be much more individually testing that what it is and seems to be headed for in future releases. As it is now, the laziest, most unskilled players can join a TF PUG and be rewarded richly while more highly skilled players receive far fewer rewards (or none at all). In the lore of comic super heroes, the lesser skilled pretenders fail while the more highly skilled ones succeed. Allowing the RNG to determine who moves forward and who lags behind runs counter to everthing super hero lore is based upon. |
Now, you want a real insult right? A slap in the face?
Here ya go!
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Good comedy by the OP!
Anyway, I hope we get some epic TFs/SFs along the road here with incarnates. Hopefully the final slot unlocks some wild, original end game mission. Hopefully something unique to this game!
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If this is true then I feel sorry for those kids and the screwed up values they are getting from someone that doesn't get that this is a pretendy funtime game. |
Originally Posted by Fritzy
In case you missed the main point of my OP, I think something as important to the future of the game should be based on principles more profound than those relying on the RNG and Luck. Ramiel's Arc to open the Alpha Slot was a foundation that should be built upon instead of becoming an important but isolated mission.
In real life, I am the father of two grown kids and the proud grandfather of two wonderful children. I raised my kids with purpose and direction and they are succeed in life and the work place. Imagine how those kids would have turned out if, at every important point in their life, I rolled the dice and solely allowed RNG processes to determine their fate. Progressing in the Incarnate System is no less important to this game than how the rearing of children is to their futures. We want those future Incarnates to be skilled, tested and proven worthy to claim the title and the huge reliance on RNG processes that is in place now is NOT the way to achieve that goal. |
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BI operates from a warped, uninformed perspective when it comes to the reality of random drops being random.
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Could you show me on the doll where the bad RNG touched you?
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If you think that, I really don't think you read the misson text carefully enough.|
Originally Posted by Fritzy
There are some players not worthy to become Incarnates. Think of the Lore and I'll bet you'll agree with me.
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I judge you...UNWORTHY!!!
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Fritzy: Are you seriously suggesting that completing a story arc would somehow be easier than completing a task force? You say that people want content; but yet you're blatantly ignoring the fact that this is the very first part of becoming an incarnate. Less than 10% of it, I'm sure; but all you can scream is content, content, content.
You've basically stated that only the skilled players should have access to the incarnate system. Am I right? I forgot that you pay $25 a month for your subscription, whereas I only pay $15; but that's neither here, nor there. What I'm concerned about is your declaration of skill..? Do you define that by how many level 50's you have? Badges? How many missions you've ran, solo? How long you can sit at Wentworths and buy recipes/IO's, to fullcap your character? Or are you just so **Z0MG-UBERL33T!@#$%^&** at PvP or PK that you've collided with the invisible barrier of elitism? You might as well just say, "I'm better than the majority of you; so my character DESERVES to be stronger."
In regards to the other posts: Do you really think the Incarnate shard drop is off in some way? One poster said that the cost for Incarnate salvage should be increased, while also increasing the shard rate drop. Hypothetically, let me just ask--If there really were issues with the drop rate, in what way would that help?
To tell you the truth, I ran five Vanguard missions, solo, the other day; and out of the five missions, I acquired two incarnate shards, and a crap-ton of Vanguard merits.
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I do not understand. Can you explain this a different way?
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Originally Posted by Fritzy
Incarnate System: an insult to skilled players
1. Using the RNG (Random Number Generator) to distribute Incarnate Shards puts them in the hands of undeserving players and can deny the shards to worthy players. Randomness should not be used to determine who obtains Incarnate boosts but should be rewarded to those who succesfully demonstrate mastery of their individual skills. Individual players need to have their skills tested before being rewarded with something as important as an Incarnate Shard. Using the same type RNG system as is used to determine the pick of real world lottery and slot machine numbers is an insult to the Incarnate System and the Incarnate characters. Skill, not luck, should determine who becomes an Incarnate. 2. I am concerned about the lazy programming that we seem to be heading towards with the future of the Incarnate System. Indications are that the future holds nothing but Raids involving many players. This means that the programming staff only need to create a couple of new TF's for each Incarnate slot release and throw them out to the user base while letting the RNG determine who gets the good stuff and who doesn't. Skilled players not required. Look at the new content for Incarnates in issue 19. Two new difficult TF's...and that's it. Let the grind begin as these two TF's (and the others that give Incarnate rewards) are farmed over and over again by every type of PUG that can be assembled. Surely, the programming staff and management of this game can do better than that to weed out those deserving to be Incarnates from those not so worthy. 3. The Incarnate System should be totally skill based throughout. There are multiple ways this could be implemented but I will suggest two: a. Create a huge arc wtih Ramiel as the primary contact where the rewards at the end of each mission is a Shard and the reward at the end of the arc is a Component. Each mission would fit with the Incarnate lore and would reveal more as the arc progresses. Missions could be done in teams or individually with equal rewards for a successful (not auto) completion. Arc could be repeated via Ourobouros. b. Create a large, related series of Shard missions that are offered randomly to level 50 players who have opened the Alpha slot. A similar system is already in game offering TIP missions and a Shard Mission system could be derived from that programming. Yes, it would take a lot of work to create quality missions but this game deserves to have that work done so that individual players have a fair chance to demonstrate their skills to the esteemed Incarnates like Statesman and Lord Recluse. 4. RNG based rewards inevitably leads to incessant grinding which, most players will acknowledge, is the bane of any MMO game. Skilled players want content and massive amounts of meaningful content that provides them with a story line they can follow and be rewarded accordingly at the end for their diligence in completing it. Unskilled players just want the rewards without the thoughtful work and those players should not be Incarnates. 5. The Incarnate System could and should be much more individually testing that what it is and seems to be headed for in future releases. As it is now, the laziest, most unskilled players can join a TF PUG and be rewarded richly while more highly skilled players receive far fewer rewards (or none at all). In the lore of comic super heroes, the lesser skilled pretenders fail while the more highly skilled ones succeed. Allowing the RNG to determine who moves forward and who lags behind runs counter to everthing super hero lore is based upon. Summary: Even with the first inteeration of the Incarnate System, the players deserve better and more than what has been done to this point. Allowing the RNG to control the system is an insult to the player base and to the Incarnate characters and lore. Change the thinking soon or risk the system crashing into disuse due its denial of skilled players the challenges and rewards they so richly deserve. |
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This thread is epic. If for no other reason than because the OP cannot seem to differentiate between super-powered characters in a game being offered the power of deities, and Dorito-munching players becoming godlings.
I'm fairly confident that my status as a mortal is unlikely to change no matter how many times I log in, or how much the RNG likes me, so me proving myself as a player seems irrelevant.
Of course, in real life my super power is sarcasm, and I don't think I'm anywhere near level 50, so I'm not qualified to be an incarnate to begin with.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Originally Posted by Xzero45
'Worthy'? ... This isn't... Excalibur we're talking about.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
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Look, what's on the top of your head is between you and your haberdasher. Don't you even try and drag the rest of us into it.
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Originally Posted by Fritzy
That's truly funny. :-)
But, I've a point and you know it. |
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Also, aren't all the rewards in the game an "insult" to "skillful" players? Like on the ITF, the Tank who spends 75% of the TF faceplanted gets the same number of merits as the defender who solos Romulus with Brawl, and has the same chance for recipes and salvage too.
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Originally Posted by Impish Kat
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You seem to have overlooked, despite being told as much multiple times in this thread, that the Incarnate system does not rely on the RNG. Random Shard drops are a supplement to the system - the so-called 'unskilled masses' are not going to fully Incarnate their characters based on random Shard drops alone any time real soon, especially once you look at the higher tiers (those not yet available). Veterans will recognize this and will do the appropriate TFs to get Component drops and will therefore obtain Incarnate status more quickly and with less grinding. |
Originally Posted by Fritzy
In case you missed the main point of my OP, I think something as important to the future of the game should be based on principles more profound than those relying on the RNG and Luck. Ramiel's Arc to open the Alpha Slot was a foundation that should be built upon instead of becoming an important but isolated mission.
In real life, I am the father of two grown kids and the proud grandfather of two wonderful children. I raised my kids with purpose and direction and they are succeed in life and the work place. Imagine how those kids would have turned out if, at every important point in their life, I rolled the dice and solely allowed RNG processes to determine their fate. Progressing in the Incarnate System is no less important to this game than how the rearing of children is to their futures. We want those future Incarnates to be skilled, tested and proven worthy to claim the title and the huge reliance on RNG processes that is in place now is NOT the way to achieve that goal. |
So in that sense, you're just wrong. As for taking a 'lore' perspective that some players simply aren't worthy of this, well, that's a pretty slippery slope you've chosen to plant your flag on. What happens when someone takes it into his head that you're not one of the worthy? I doubt you have any more objective criteria than this hypothetical yahoo would have for excluding you, but I doubt you'd be so sanguine about this if you were in the other camp.
This is ultimately nothing more than a lot of sound and fury. Somewhat amusing, but nothing more. Given some of the ludicrous comparisons, I can't help but suspect this may be a deliberate troll thread.
If so, kudos on your success.
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I really can't think, after reading the OP, that the poster has ever played endgame content in any other MMO...
Raiding the same "instance" over and over again and hoping for your drop is kinda the whole point of the way "end game" has worked in almost every MMO ever. That's how they keep you on the treadmill until they can whip up a new "instance" where you will run through over and over and hope your +2 carrot drops to replace the +1 carrot you worked so hard to get the RNG to give you in the last set.
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Being able to complete the incarnate arc does not make some one a skilled or even competent player.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
They DO have their skills tested. BY RUNNING THE INCARNATE ARC.
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Also, I'm confused as to how some people think the game recognizes players who are leeching, and gives them extra rewards for it.
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It just does. Being dead in a mission gives you an increased chance at drops. You know how for a while there it seemed that it was always the sidekick who got the purple drop? Yeah, it's kinda like that. The game has ways of determining who is the least useful player on a team, and giving them the best stuff.|
Originally Posted by Clebstein
Also, I'm confused as to how some people think the game recognizes players who are leeching, and gives them extra rewards for it.
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You read this on the internet so it must be true.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
You read this on the internet so it must be true.
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If anything though; skilled players may get more out of this when they next decide to datamine for merit rewards. With people taking time to actually kill everything for potential shards; it's slowed down the number of speed runs being performed.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I said they had their skills tested. I never said they were "skilled" or "competent". These terms are benchmarks so nebulous as to be utterly useless.|
Originally Posted by Clebstein
Being able to complete the incarnate arc does not make some one a skilled or even competent player.
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Again, it's not about being *'leet*, it's about putting forth the effort.
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Exactly. And I, for one, am glad about it. While the greedy, impatient git in me enjoys a good productive speed run for merits, I like that people are taking more time in missions, TFs, raids, etc.|
Originally Posted by Tyger
If anything though; skilled players may get more out of this when they next decide to datamine for merit rewards. With people taking time to actually kill everything for potential shards; it's slowed down the number of speed runs being performed.
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In the last two days I've run two sets of back-to-back Hami raids (Hero side on Freedom and Villain side on Protector) that weren't "drop nukes and power through the bloom" runs. For shards and highly attended.
Good stuff.
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Originally Posted by Nutsalot
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Win!
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What do you think makes someone a skilled or even competent player in the realm of PvE? Grinding through a 50-mission story arc? Solo'ing an AV? Making billion of infamy in the market? Being a good roleplayer? Have a lot of IOs?
Originally Posted by Clebstein
Being able to complete the incarnate arc does not make some one a skilled or even competent player.
I'm sickened by how so many people so liberally throw around the word "skilled" and "deserving" player as if there is some absolute definition on who is "l33t" and who is not, and how they should or shouldn't be awarded by the game.
Do you guys listen to yourself talk? xD
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Originally Posted by Fritzy
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No one, least of all me, posted about how everyone on the team should get an equal amount of Incarnate drops, although that would certain be both very nice and a lot more fair.
What irks me is leeches coming out of a TF with 7-8 shards, more than double everyone else. I don't like it. If you don't like that I don't like it, sorry but we'll have to keep disagreeing.
The RNG Conspiracy,
Its totally out to get me.
When the roll is made,
I just dont get paid.
So I sit and stare,
And think; its just not fair.
Then I tell the Fandom,
That its anything but random.
But they just dont listen to me,
And my RNG Conspiracy