Incarnate System: an insult to skilled players
By
AzureSkyCiel,
Posted on: 2010-12-04 02:53 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Quote:
If you want an MMO that's based on skill, not the RNG, get yourself a joystick and rudder pedals and join HiTech Creation's WWII air-combat simulation Aces High. Aside from the bomber formations (where you get two drones following your plane), every single plane or vehicle you see will have someone live at the controls, and if you shoot them down, it's because you fought better than they did.
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Originally Posted by Fritzy
Summary: Even with the first inteeration of the Incarnate System, the players deserve better and more than what has been done to this point. Allowing the RNG to control the system is an insult to the player base and to the Incarnate characters and lore. Change the thinking soon or risk the system crashing into disuse due its denial of skilled players the challenges and rewards they so richly deserve.
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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or Planetside which did that a full year before Aces High II. |
Originally Posted by srmalloy
If you want an MMO that's based on skill, not the RNG, get yourself a joystick and rudder pedals and join HiTech Creation's WWII air-combat simulation Aces High. Aside from the bomber formations (where you get two drones following your plane), every single plane or vehicle you see will have someone live at the controls, and if you shoot them down, it's because you fought better than they did.
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Granted with what SOE did to Planetside, fans of that game are better off with Global Agenda or M.A.G.
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Originally Posted by Fritzy
Incarnate System: an insult to skilled players
1. Using the RNG (Random Number Generator) to distribute Incarnate Shards puts them in the hands of undeserving players and can deny the shards to worthy players. Randomness should not be used to determine who obtains Incarnate boosts but should be rewarded to those who succesfully demonstrate mastery of their individual skills. Individual players need to have their skills tested before being rewarded with something as important as an Incarnate Shard. Using the same type RNG system as is used to determine the pick of real world lottery and slot machine numbers is an insult to the Incarnate System and the Incarnate characters. Skill, not luck, should determine who becomes an Incarnate. ... |
Okay I'll be honest and say I didn't read anything past this...after the last paragraph I went to the end of your post looking for a "tl;dr" version or a "haha, you thought I was being serious, I was joking!"....but didn't see it.
I'll just do a quick point to what I quoted (not sure if it's been done already or not but....).
The whole "Individual players need to have their skills tested before being rewarded with something as important as an Incarnate Shard." technically has already been done. In fact, that's how the person/character unlocks the alpha slot by doing a story arc that explains and 'tests' the character.
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@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
After reading the OP's post, I'm convinced he must be...
{puts on sunglasses}
DeRNGed.
Quote:
yeeeeeaaaa--ck -ak-ak *cough. cough.* |
Originally Posted by Quinch
After reading the OP's post, I'm convinced he must be...
{puts on sunglasses} DeRNGed. |
*hack*
ahem...
sorry. furball.
.
Quote:
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
I did an LGTF tonight and one of my SGmates got 11 shards... I got 2! *cries* OMG I must be the unworthy one!! NOOOOOOOOOO
I'm impressed with this build and the incarnate system. I got an extra build(3 now) so I don't have to create so many new 50s. Also, did anyone get the option for the fast incarnate? I just have to check? Clear those slots before you play!!
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LOL, you're funny. |
Originally Posted by Fritzy
Incarnate System: an insult to skilled players
1. Using the RNG (Random Number Generator) to distribute Incarnate Shards puts them in the hands of undeserving players and can deny the shards to worthy players. Randomness should not be used to determine who obtains Incarnate boosts but should be rewarded to those who succesfully demonstrate mastery of their individual skills. Individual players need to have their skills tested before being rewarded with something as important as an Incarnate Shard. Using the same type RNG system as is used to determine the pick of real world lottery and slot machine numbers is an insult to the Incarnate System and the Incarnate characters. Skill, not luck, should determine who becomes an Incarnate. 2. I am concerned about the lazy programming that we seem to be heading towards with the future of the Incarnate System. Indications are that the future holds nothing but Raids involving many players. This means that the programming staff only need to create a couple of new TF's for each Incarnate slot release and throw them out to the user base while letting the RNG determine who gets the good stuff and who doesn't. Skilled players not required. Look at the new content for Incarnates in issue 19. Two new difficult TF's...and that's it. Let the grind begin as these two TF's (and the others that give Incarnate rewards) are farmed over and over again by every type of PUG that can be assembled. Surely, the programming staff and management of this game can do better than that to weed out those deserving to be Incarnates from those not so worthy. 3. The Incarnate System should be totally skill based throughout. There are multiple ways this could be implemented but I will suggest two: a. Create a huge arc wtih Ramiel as the primary contact where the rewards at the end of each mission is a Shard and the reward at the end of the arc is a Component. Each mission would fit with the Incarnate lore and would reveal more as the arc progresses. Missions could be done in teams or individually with equal rewards for a successful (not auto) completion. Arc could be repeated via Ourobouros. b. Create a large, related series of Shard missions that are offered randomly to level 50 players who have opened the Alpha slot. A similar system is already in game offering TIP missions and a Shard Mission system could be derived from that programming. Yes, it would take a lot of work to create quality missions but this game deserves to have that work done so that individual players have a fair chance to demonstrate their skills to the esteemed Incarnates like Statesman and Lord Recluse. 4. RNG based rewards inevitably leads to incessant grinding which, most players will acknowledge, is the bane of any MMO game. Skilled players want content and massive amounts of meaningful content that provides them with a story line they can follow and be rewarded accordingly at the end for their diligence in completing it. Unskilled players just want the rewards without the thoughtful work and those players should not be Incarnates. 5. The Incarnate System could and should be much more individually testing that what it is and seems to be headed for in future releases. As it is now, the laziest, most unskilled players can join a TF PUG and be rewarded richly while more highly skilled players receive far fewer rewards (or none at all). In the lore of comic super heroes, the lesser skilled pretenders fail while the more highly skilled ones succeed. Allowing the RNG to determine who moves forward and who lags behind runs counter to everthing super hero lore is based upon. Summary: Even with the first inteeration of the Incarnate System, the players deserve better and more than what has been done to this point. Allowing the RNG to control the system is an insult to the player base and to the Incarnate characters and lore. Change the thinking soon or risk the system crashing into disuse due its denial of skilled players the challenges and rewards they so richly deserve. |
Oh......wait......you're serious?!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
So, you are more deserving of these rewards than other players because you're more "skilled"?
I have, in all seriousness, never seen such a display of self-entitled, unbridled ARROGANCE in my entire life. If you had said those exact words to me in real life, I would have been fighting the urge to slap you on general principle.
I didn't think it was possible for someone to have a sense of self entitlement that huge, complete contempt for "lesser" people, ridiculous levels of elitism, and an attitude that purely selfish combined into one personality.
Congratulations on the dubious honor of having proved me wrong.
And Bad Influence, your "idea" that when a shard drops everyone gets one, would just reward the door sitters even more than the random number generator already does. Seriously, if everyone got a shard when one dropped, the guy who has done nothing but stand at the doorway to the mission, would get 10-12 in one mission without taking a single step. How fair is THAT?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I read the OP, then I did a search for his recent posts and found the following tidbit:
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If you're not getting 3 shards per hour, at worst, as a solo player while trying to optimize, you've got no business talking about skill.
| Since completing the arc, I've gotten 3 additional shards in 12 hours of solo play |
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Skill has nothing to do with shard drops. There's been several times where I've ran tip & contact missions for a few hours and received NO shards at all, and others where I've ran a single mission and received a couple.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
If you're not getting 3 shards per hour, at worst, as a solo player while trying to optimize, you've got no business talking about skill.
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It's random. That's what the R is for in RNG
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
Ever see the movie cry baby? It's a musical but not to bad compared to the rest of em. Anyway this post just made me think of that movie.
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Originally Posted by Fritzy
Incarnate System: an insult to skilled players
1. Using the RNG (Random Number Generator) to distribute Incarnate Shards puts them in the hands of undeserving players and can deny the shards to worthy players. Randomness should not be used to determine who obtains Incarnate boosts but should be rewarded to those who succesfully demonstrate mastery of their individual skills. Individual players need to have their skills tested before being rewarded with something as important as an Incarnate Shard. Using the same type RNG system as is used to determine the pick of real world lottery and slot machine numbers is an insult to the Incarnate System and the Incarnate characters. Skill, not luck, should determine who becomes an Incarnate. 2. I am concerned about the lazy programming that we seem to be heading towards with the future of the Incarnate System. Indications are that the future holds nothing but Raids involving many players. This means that the programming staff only need to create a couple of new TF's for each Incarnate slot release and throw them out to the user base while letting the RNG determine who gets the good stuff and who doesn't. Skilled players not required. Look at the new content for Incarnates in issue 19. Two new difficult TF's...and that's it. Let the grind begin as these two TF's (and the others that give Incarnate rewards) are farmed over and over again by every type of PUG that can be assembled. Surely, the programming staff and management of this game can do better than that to weed out those deserving to be Incarnates from those not so worthy. 3. The Incarnate System should be totally skill based throughout. There are multiple ways this could be implemented but I will suggest two: a. Create a huge arc wtih Ramiel as the primary contact where the rewards at the end of each mission is a Shard and the reward at the end of the arc is a Component. Each mission would fit with the Incarnate lore and would reveal more as the arc progresses. Missions could be done in teams or individually with equal rewards for a successful (not auto) completion. Arc could be repeated via Ourobouros. b. Create a large, related series of Shard missions that are offered randomly to level 50 players who have opened the Alpha slot. A similar system is already in game offering TIP missions and a Shard Mission system could be derived from that programming. Yes, it would take a lot of work to create quality missions but this game deserves to have that work done so that individual players have a fair chance to demonstrate their skills to the esteemed Incarnates like Statesman and Lord Recluse. 4. RNG based rewards inevitably leads to incessant grinding which, most players will acknowledge, is the bane of any MMO game. Skilled players want content and massive amounts of meaningful content that provides them with a story line they can follow and be rewarded accordingly at the end for their diligence in completing it. Unskilled players just want the rewards without the thoughtful work and those players should not be Incarnates. 5. The Incarnate System could and should be much more individually testing that what it is and seems to be headed for in future releases. As it is now, the laziest, most unskilled players can join a TF PUG and be rewarded richly while more highly skilled players receive far fewer rewards (or none at all). In the lore of comic super heroes, the lesser skilled pretenders fail while the more highly skilled ones succeed. Allowing the RNG to determine who moves forward and who lags behind runs counter to everthing super hero lore is based upon. Summary: Even with the first inteeration of the Incarnate System, the players deserve better and more than what has been done to this point. Allowing the RNG to control the system is an insult to the player base and to the Incarnate characters and lore. Change the thinking soon or risk the system crashing into disuse due its denial of skilled players the challenges and rewards they so richly deserve. |
Oh hey, I just figured something out.
A 'worthy player' is defined as someone who has completed Mender Ramiel's story arc.
Eastern Standard Time (Australia)
is 15 hours ahead of
Eastern Standard Time (North America)
which is 5 hours behind
Greenwich Mean Time (GMT)
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Gawd Complex much???
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Originally Posted by Fritzy
Incarnate System: an insult to skilled players
1. Using the RNG (Random Number Generator) to distribute Incarnate Shards puts them in the hands of undeserving players and can deny the shards to worthy players. Randomness should not be used to determine who obtains Incarnate boosts but should be rewarded to those who succesfully demonstrate mastery of their individual skills. Individual players need to have their skills tested before being rewarded with something as important as an Incarnate Shard. Using the same type RNG system as is used to determine the pick of real world lottery and slot machine numbers is an insult to the Incarnate System and the Incarnate characters. Skill, not luck, should determine who becomes an Incarnate. 2. I am concerned about the lazy programming that we seem to be heading towards with the future of the Incarnate System. Indications are that the future holds nothing but Raids involving many players. This means that the programming staff only need to create a couple of new TF's for each Incarnate slot release and throw them out to the user base while letting the RNG determine who gets the good stuff and who doesn't. Skilled players not required. Look at the new content for Incarnates in issue 19. Two new difficult TF's...and that's it. Let the grind begin as these two TF's (and the others that give Incarnate rewards) are farmed over and over again by every type of PUG that can be assembled. Surely, the programming staff and management of this game can do better than that to weed out those deserving to be Incarnates from those not so worthy. 3. The Incarnate System should be totally skill based throughout. There are multiple ways this could be implemented but I will suggest two: a. Create a huge arc wtih Ramiel as the primary contact where the rewards at the end of each mission is a Shard and the reward at the end of the arc is a Component. Each mission would fit with the Incarnate lore and would reveal more as the arc progresses. Missions could be done in teams or individually with equal rewards for a successful (not auto) completion. Arc could be repeated via Ourobouros. b. Create a large, related series of Shard missions that are offered randomly to level 50 players who have opened the Alpha slot. A similar system is already in game offering TIP missions and a Shard Mission system could be derived from that programming. Yes, it would take a lot of work to create quality missions but this game deserves to have that work done so that individual players have a fair chance to demonstrate their skills to the esteemed Incarnates like Statesman and Lord Recluse. 4. RNG based rewards inevitably leads to incessant grinding which, most players will acknowledge, is the bane of any MMO game. Skilled players want content and massive amounts of meaningful content that provides them with a story line they can follow and be rewarded accordingly at the end for their diligence in completing it. Unskilled players just want the rewards without the thoughtful work and those players should not be Incarnates. 5. The Incarnate System could and should be much more individually testing that what it is and seems to be headed for in future releases. As it is now, the laziest, most unskilled players can join a TF PUG and be rewarded richly while more highly skilled players receive far fewer rewards (or none at all). In the lore of comic super heroes, the lesser skilled pretenders fail while the more highly skilled ones succeed. Allowing the RNG to determine who moves forward and who lags behind runs counter to everthing super hero lore is based upon. Summary: Even with the first inteeration of the Incarnate System, the players deserve better and more than what has been done to this point. Allowing the RNG to control the system is an insult to the player base and to the Incarnate characters and lore. Change the thinking soon or risk the system crashing into disuse due its denial of skilled players the challenges and rewards they so richly deserve. |
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Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
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Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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The only way that idea could possibly work is if they reduced the drop rate a hell of a lot more than it is now. Consider the numer of shards dropping on a regular TF. All the shards, not just the ones you're getting. And now consider that for all those shards everyone would've gotten one. I did a LGTF where the total shards for the team numbered well over 50. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And Bad Influence, your "idea" that when a shard drops everyone gets one, would just reward the door sitters even more than the random number generator already does. Seriously, if everyone got a shard when one dropped, the guy who has done nothing but stand at the doorway to the mission, would get 10-12 in one mission without taking a single step. How fair is THAT?
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It would destroy drops solo players completely.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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No, see, by the logic system known as The Fritzian Logic, that mean that the person that got the higher number of shards is the unworthy one. Not you.
Originally Posted by Feycat
I did an LGTF tonight and one of my SGmates got 11 shards... I got 2! *cries* OMG I must be the unworthy one!! NOOOOOOOOOO
You're skilled, and the Random Number Generator is being unfair as it is rewarding the unskilled players, and not you, the clearly skilled and worthy player.
Didn't you take that Fritzian Logic 101 class in college? Shame on you!
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I was expecting this too. But in a different way. I was expecting people to be asking if your geared just to do a TF or something kind of how it is in other MMOs. When the whole point of the instance is to get the gear?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I was expecting some stupidity about elitism when I19 launched, but this is from a totally unexpected angle
 |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Okay, Mr. OP.
Say, for sake of argument, that they DID do something so the "skilled" players got Incarnate stuff, and the "unworthy" ones got squat.
If it turns out that YOU are one of the "unworthy" players, are you still going to think it's such a good idea?
My money is on "No".
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Yes, It's true, the Well of the Furies hates you. Well... "hates" is too strong a word. It's just testing you, to make sure you have the patience required of an Incarnate. Or something.
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Originally Posted by Feycat
I did an LGTF tonight and one of my SGmates got 11 shards... I got 2! *cries* OMG I must be the unworthy one!! NOOOOOOOOOO
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One forum name, two members: Molly Hackett & Heliphyneau.
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hay guyz, i jus gut mah 1st 50 frum monkies whar i getz lots of xps, sos i lik, did that tim trvl thing wit dat mndar, n like, i did those force task thing, n i gots lots of thoz shards evn tho i jus did nuthin, it madez mes uberly epics n i cn nao pwn u all n00bs HA HA HA HA HA urz all nubz
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"Skill", knowledge of the game or whatever you want to call it, has everything to do with knowing how to play in order to maximise shard drops solo. If you're running +0/x8 for one hour and don't get at least (absolute minimum) 3 shards, you're too slow and have no business talking about skill.| Skill has nothing to do with shard drops. There's been several times where I've ran tip & contact missions for a few hours and received NO shards at all, and others where I've ran a single mission and received a couple. |
You can kill 5.000 foes and not get a single purple drop. That's what random means ; but you're extremely unlikely to kill 50.000 foes solo and not get a single purple drop. That's what probabilities mean.
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Speed and skill have bugger all to do with anything. If you're running +0/x8 that increases the odds of getting shards, but it's stil controlled by the RNG.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
"Skill", knowledge of the game or whatever you want to call it, has everything to do with knowing how to play in order to maximise shard drops solo. If you're running +0/x8 for one hour and don't get at least (absolute minimum) 3 shards, you're too slow and have no business talking about skill.
You can kill 5.000 foes and not get a single purple drop. That's what random means ; but you're extremely unlikely to kill 50.000 foes solo and not get a single purple drop. That's what probabilities mean. |
But then, I see you're in the same arrogant school as the op and think skill has anything at all to do with playing an MMO, so I'll just treat your posts as if you were the op.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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This.
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Speed and skill have bugger all to do with anything. If you're running +0/x8 that increases the odds of getting shards, but it's stil controlled by the RNG.
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I got Grill Skills!