This thread is the gift that keeps on giving.
In my 6 1/2 years in CoH I have never seen one poster so hell-bent on ignoring arguments counter to his views, no matter how thoughtfully, cogently, and thoroughly those arguments are presented. It's almost admirable, his steadfast devotion to his original viewpoint.
Almost...
...in CoH racing to 50 is like trying to race to the end of your vacation. -Arcanaville
Debt barely slows down levelling these days. It's just a little bar that measures how much Awesome you've generated recently. (If you're not getting debt, you're just not trying to generate Awesome hard enough.) -Kelenar
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The reason why no one has the "courage" to say how long it should take to kit out a character is because there is not a "right" answer. I don't even know where you get off thinking that everyone "should" have one of these characters.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Worthy of repost, in entirety. As pointed out after this, I may still be like "It takes too long". Yes, yes I would. I have been very clear about what price points (250 mil for purps, 500 mil for PvP I/Os) and how long it should approximately take to kit out one character really sweet (including Purps, Procs, Globals, and PvPs, about a year at 50) I think this would suit the game well, and anything too much longer than this threats with being discouraging.
While you make a very fine point, I have yet to hear people that disagree with me explain exactly how long they think it should take to "Ultimate I/O build" a character from scratch. I have placed my opinions out, and have made myself a giant target. Those who disagree with me use every tactic from taunting barb, to wall of I feel your pain text, to "you'e doing it wrong", but I have yet to see anyone with the courage to explain why the current market system works (please do not edit the rest out here) in a way that works for newcomers to the game, making it fun and encouraging. Nor have I heard anyone with the courage to say how long they think it should take to kit out a character from scratch. Although it has been fun to isten to 2-3 of the posters be like "I kitted mine out in like a few months, so everything is fine now, don't tell the Devs to change it, move along" |
Where in all your gaming in CoX have you read in a manual, help boxes, tutorial or heard from a dev that everyone is entitled to a fully "pimped" out character after so and so time? Considering how unnecessary IOs are due to balancing I don't see how you can come to that conclusion.
I've been playing this game a little over five years and I didn't have my first purpled character until about a year ago meaning it wasn't until two years after IOs came out. Never in my time playing this game did I have the notion that I've been playing long enough and I should get a purpled out character now as if it were some kind of Veteran Reward.
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Hi. I'm SuperFerret. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Actually, there is a class of players in the cities that have a disease called altitis. It is rare, maybe less than 1% of those who play, possibly more. More characters are what keep those who Alt playing. Having each of these characters be even cooler would only enhance our altitis afflicted players experience. Since you do not suffer this malady, this probably makes no sense to you. But it is a good market for a game like City of to look for customers in. ince they have one of the best character design systems on the market, marketing to people that like to alt, wel, it might make a little sense.
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And Professor Quick. And Storm Krow. And The Mad Zookeeper, Doctor Orca, Major Villainy, Triceratops Man, Neural Interceptor, and Fafnir the Dragon.
And that's just on the Guardian server, my primary server. And there are more each and every day.
I only plan to fully IO out (with sets, though no purples) just SuperFerret and Mad Zookeeper (my main hero and villain). The others will be set up with either SO's or generic IO's. This, however, is my short term plan. As I get more 50's, of which I currently have none, I'll probably be IOing the rest out, and so on and so forth (since I'll continually make more characters).
After playing the game on and off for about 6 years, I've only ever had one 50, a version of SuperFerret, which was deleted and remade twice before the one I currently have now, due to boredom with being 50, AND having gotten him to 50 during the AE PLing binge. Most (and by most, I mean, all listed about aside from Neural, my newest) have been deleted and rerolled multiple times due to various reasons.
I'm not just an Altaholic, I'm the Altoholic. And that's Altitis (which of course means "inflammation of the alternative character") hasn't stopped me from making attempts at playing the market nor has it prevented me from using IO sets (in fact, it's helped me get some of the more common recipes that I need due to random drops). The only reason I've not yet considered purples is that I see them as wholly unnecessary, since I can achieve the same results with more common (and therefore less common and easier to come by) recipes.
Anyway, I've always hated these types of posts, where it's just me beating you over the head with a wall of text.
So, for the tl;dr crowd:
I'm an extreme altaholic and I still utilize the market without being deterred by the higher end stuff, which I admit to being a bit out of my grasp (but that's comparable to a level one seeing a level 50 standing around under Atlas, I'm not there yet, but it's just a matter of time).
SF: I think Steelclaw might out-altoholic you.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Enigma
This thread is the gift that keeps on giving.
In my 6 1/2 years in CoH I have never seen one poster so hell-bent on ignoring arguments counter to his views, no matter how thoughtfully, cogently, and thoroughly those arguments are presented. It's almost admirable, his steadfast devotion to his original viewpoint. Almost... |
This truly is a work of art. I can only count on one hand the amount of people on these forums that can pull off something like this.
I have only one thing to add to this thread which has not been expressed yet.
I have no trouble making money, and I am perfectly willing to do what's necessary to outfit my toons. However, I find the whole crafting and market experience takes me far away from the feeling that I am any kind of superhero. It's like pretending to be batman by sitting at a fleamarket selling used blankets. I wish that the game was able to connect the best ways of making money with the main theme, that we are super-powered beings running around doing cool stuff.
I expect that's why the dev's decided to remove the MA and the difficulty settings from the first 20 levels of Going Rogue. At first I was annoyed, but then I really enjoyed playing the game without constantly thinking about maximizing my time-to-experience ratio.
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You could probably find a better exemplar of the incompatibility of superheroing and capitalism than Batman, who's vast fortune is integral to his mythology.
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Originally Posted by Jim_G
It's like pretending to be batman by sitting at a fleamarket selling used blankets.
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Suspect nobody out altoholics me with only one account. 180+ toons, 55 50s (and I don't farm/PL), at least 12 toons on every server. All the 50s that have hit 50 since the market are IOd with a couple of exceptions and many of the old ones, plus several below 50. |
Originally Posted by seebs
SF: I think Steelclaw might out-altoholic you.
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I don't tend to go nuts on the IOs, although I have a 7 billion ish permadom as my silly exception, and will be slotting a couple of PvP 3% defs that I've earned from A-merits.
I'm not a casual player, but I make >1BN/week on the market without spending an enormous amount of time at it crafting enhancements.
Any player can afford to IO toons with all the non purple non PvP IOs they want, if they want the uber stuff, it takes some work but can be afforded. I tend to organise TFs on the global channels, so tended to hit 50 hero side with around 1000 merits, that's a lot of random rolls and will finance most things. Nowadays I convert them to A-merits to add to 10 I earn, and create a PvP IO and sell it for multiple billions.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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Fixed it for you:|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
To kitg out a charcter in 5 purple sets would require 1200 uniterrupted days of TIPing at 50.
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If you don't do any story arcs, don't do any Ouroboros arcs, don't do any Strike Forces or Task Forces, don't do any AE missions, delete any good drops that you happen to get, and try really hard to be miserable about it, it could take 1000 days of tip missions to generate 500 A Merits (that you could turn into 14 top end PvP IOs that you could sell for 28 billion+) to trade in for 25 Purple recipes that you could've bought on the market for <12bil.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
This will be one of the last times I respond to disingenuous posts such as this.
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Originally Posted by seebs
SF: I think Steelclaw might out-altoholic you.
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Originally Posted by Minotaur
Suspect nobody out altoholics me with only one account. 180+ toons, 55 50s (and I don't farm/PL), at least 12 toons on every server. All the 50s that have hit 50 since the market are IOd with a couple of exceptions and many of the old ones, plus several below 50.
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If I've got my names right, Steelclaw is the one who maxes out 50s and then deletes them all on a fairly regular basis.
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Originally Posted by Minotaur
Suspect nobody out altoholics me with only one account.
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A bidder is not a buyer unless the bidder bids a price that creates a sale.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
There has been a near constant refrain of "Buyers set the prices" Okay. Log onto every alt you got, everybody. Bid 100 influence for every PvP I/O. Every buyer is bidding 100 for every PvP I/O. Somebody tell me when the 1st purchase happens and when all the prices are at 100. Thanks.
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If no one bids enough to meet the lister's price then the listers' items will remain unsold untold both bidder and lister agree on prices.
So if anyone is willing to bid enough to meet a lister's listed price then we have a buyer and a seller.
So BUYERS set the prices not listers and not bidders.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
I am a pretty hefty altoholic myself. I have a level 50 in every AT except scrapper (yes even each of WS/PB/NW/Fort/Crab/Bane). Honestly I've never finished a scrapper cause I keep falling asleep cause its too easy. I've levelled a toon to 50 on every server except Victory....although I have none on Protector at the moment because I moved the 50 I levelled up there.
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Quoted for the absolutely funniest post ever written in these forums since UniqueDragon.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
You seem to not be reading my posts, so this is the last time I will respond to you.
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Have you ever been introduced to Ultimo ?
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Originally Posted by Mr_Enigma
This thread is the gift that keeps on giving.
In my 6 1/2 years in CoH I have never seen one poster so hell-bent on ignoring arguments counter to his views, no matter how thoughtfully, cogently, and thoroughly those arguments are presented. It's almost admirable, his steadfast devotion to his original viewpoint. Almost... |
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Ooh, good call...|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Have you ever been introduced to Ultimo ?
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That inherent fitness thread is pretty remarkable, too.
...in CoH racing to 50 is like trying to race to the end of your vacation. -Arcanaville
Debt barely slows down levelling these days. It's just a little bar that measures how much Awesome you've generated recently. (If you're not getting debt, you're just not trying to generate Awesome hard enough.) -Kelenar
So... 29 pages and B_C still doesn't get it. I find it hilarious at this point. I really do think him and Ultimo_ are twins.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Have you ever been introduced to Ultimo ?
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
So... 29 pages and B_C still doesn't get it. I find it hilarious at this point. I really do think him and Ultimo_ are twins.
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OK, so so far, 1.5B is the latest bid. Please CMIIW. But I started at 1 INF, and someone is willing to pay 1.5B. This disproves your assertion that market sellers set prices.
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
well just to explain my bid on this.
I believe as a PvP proc it works like a LotG plus a purple in that it is always on and always works as long as I have the power. With Issue 19's new inherent fitness this means by slotting it into Health it will benefit me forever and always. It would cost me 35 a-merits which would take me at least 70 days or 35 days plus 700 million influence. So given all that I would happily bid a (likely losing) bid of 1.5B (I'd be keeping the .5B in reserve to get some other stuff and craft it) |
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
I'm just going to throw this out here for B_C to ignore.
Devs have set a hard value on the worth of PvP IOs. That value is 24-70 days. (Assuming logging in once a day to perform the required tasks. Sticking to the 20 hour cool-down, you COULD reduce this further.)
To shorten your required time investment 46 days, you have to pay 480,000,000inf and 1200 merits. 1200 merits is roughly 60 in-game hours. That's about 10,434,782.61inf and 26.09merits per day saved. Assuming no exponential growth in cost/day as the number of required days approaches 1; a single day acquirement of a PvP IO recipe will cost you 730,434,782.61inf and 1826.08merits (91.3 hours)
But what is the value of a merit? I'm tempted to go with the oft stated average value of a random roll (around 20mil per roll? times 91?), but that requires utilizing market prices, which B_C contests as being over inflated. So I must limit myself to a more hard-coded inf value. The ITF. When not speeding through an ITF, it takes about an hour. In the average such hour (team of 8, fighting at lvl 50, with SG-mode on) I make about 2 to 2.5 million on mob defeats alone. add another 0.5 million from vendoring Enhancement and common IO drops, and we've got at least 2.75mil/hour. So if we go with the dev's benchmark of about 20merits/hour... (2.75mil per hour)*91.3hours= 251,086,956.52inf
730,434,782.61inf + 251,086,956.52inf = 981,521,793.13inf ... lets call it 1 billion even.
By the dev's own metrics, that are made publicly visible, they can not offer these recipes for any less than 1 billion inf without making the existing methods pointless and redundant. And they will likely not back down on the time investments on these IOs. They are the rarest of the rare (so far).
They are not meant to be had by anyone who simply wants them, they are end-game stretch goals. Time sinks to give those of us who have devoured the available content something to strive for. If they were simply handed out (and based on your price-points, B_C, it would functionally just be handed out), there is little reason to keep going; They have the shiny, They have beaten the last boss.. PvP IOs are CoH's equivalent to epic raid gear; that awesome sword that random monster #2387 drops 0.01% of the time; that shiny pokemon that has a decent nature, IVs, and the right egg moves, that you went up and down that stupid path on your bike a bajilloin times to hatch an ungodly number of eggs to get the one singular diamond in the r... *cough*
Where was I? oh yeah.. 90% of the user base does not care about EVs, IVs, natures, or STAB moves. They get their Mudkips up to a high enough level to beat the elite 4, and they are happy. But sometimes they see that the rabbit hole went much deeper than they first thought. But don't complain to Nintendo if you find that a 1 in 8192 chance of a shiny is not fair, especially if the community has informed you that you can cut those odds to 1 in 2048 by forcing your pokemon to procreate with a mail order bride from across the ocean.
"My inner mind has become a reality-cracking overgod. He torments me! Help!"
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Bzzt.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Nor have I heard anyone with the courage to say how long they think it should take to kit out a character from scratch.
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=338
TL: DR past the first page.
This comparison came to mind while reading the complaints.
I want a Lamborghini, Diamonds and be able to eat Caviar and Fillet Mignon every night. I see other people doing that, and I want to do it too. But I work at Mc Donald's flipping burgers. It's not fair that those people get that stuff and I don't.
I blame the Lamborghini company for creating the car, God for creating diamonds, and cows and sturgeon for crating steak and caviar, as well as the government for not giving me more money.
Does this make sense? Does it? I could either figure out a way to make more money so that I can buy that stuff, borrow money and get screwed in the process, or go without. Sure, having that stuff might be cool, make me look cool and make me feel cool... But it isn't feasible in my current condition.
(All comments are fictional, I don't actually work at Mc Donald's).
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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Originally Posted by DSorrow
Great post (EDIT: reply to seebs' wall of text), to which he will respond, "yeah, but I still want purples for less than what they're worth" and goes on with his crusade.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
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While you make a very fine point, I have yet to hear people that disagree with me explain exactly how long they think it should take to "Ultimate I/O build" a character from scratch. I have placed my opinions out, and have made myself a giant target. Those who disagree with me use every tactic from taunting barb, to wall of I feel your pain text, to "you'e doing it wrong", but I have yet to see anyone with the courage to explain why the current market system works (please do not edit the rest out here) in a way that works for newcomers to the game, making it fun and encouraging. Nor have I heard anyone with the courage to say how long they think it should take to kit out a character from scratch. Although it has been fun to isten to 2-3 of the posters be like "I kitted mine out in like a few months, so everything is fine now, don't tell the Devs to change it, move along" |
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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This suggests a pattern. You feel that 2 billion for an enhancement is people griefing. Now you say that people attacking you in a PvP zone is also griefing.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
PvP has always been a mystery to me. I go to that land for badges, generally on Brutes, and generally get griefed while there. While saying reguarly without spamming "I am badging" I get jumped so regular it is clockwork.
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Just because YOU don't like something does NOT make it griefing. The devs have made it perfectly clear that both of these situations are 'working as intended' in their eyes.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
In the end I am building a logical case to present to the Devs that they need to reward the type of play they say they encourage.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
The fact of the matter is I believe new and casual players may feel the way I do much more readily than they will come around to your position. So, the game is skewed in your favor, you want it to stay that way, even if it hurts new City of customers. In my opinion. My feeling.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
I told you exactly how and how long it took a friend of mine to do, on his own, new to the game, new to MMOs even.
Here, I'll even quote it for you:
"A long time friend, and admittedly a pretty sharp guy, got into the game a while back.
Myself and two others of our circle of friends had been playing for many years at that point. While we had a couple characters with a few IOs here and there and a few million on hand, we were pretty much playing the game market free and having a blast. We felt and were plenty powerful enough etc.
Our newly arrived friend saw the market and having some time during periods where the rest of us were not online, decided to see what it was all about.
In less than 6 months, without a 50th level character and very little research other than on the mechanics of crafting, he crafted his way to a fully IO'ed Stone Tanker and 2 billion on hand. You know his only complaint? No badge for getting to the inf cap.
This was all before his 6th month vet badge. He played time-wise, compared to me, about one quarter of the time I played. He made so much inf and saw how easy it was, pretty much entirely through buying recipes and selling the crafted IO's, that he got BORED with making inf.
If he could do that in less than 6 months of playing and after years of playing others cannot, is the problem the with the system or the player that is unable to make inf?"
It cannot be any more obvious that you are just reading posts here that either make you FEEL better about your position or that you think you call out someone for insulting you and ignoring the rest, or ridiculing them outright.
As for how long I think it should take, I think it should take as long as the developers allow based upon the rules the have invoked. That means a well informed player can do it in less than a month and someone that chooses not to use all the tools available to them should not be able to do it even after 42 months of playing.
Your will-full ignorance is astonishing.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45