2 billion per enhancer

Do you feel that a new, casual player is served well looking at level 50 characters, seeing how comparatively bad-*** they are even just outfitted with SOs? (And try to imagine this after a few slots of Incarnate are filled.) Do you think it's unfair that long-term, established players and those who know how to leverage the game optimally have an unfair advantage over those casual, new players because they know ways to get 50s faster, and possibly have resources the new, casual player does not?

If they really want to get to 50 faster, and they get really impatient about it, they can do things. They can start researching the system, finding ways to level faster. They can ask for help. They might even make use of a power leveler.

Once they do those sorts of things, they may still be new, but they cease being a n00b. If they really start digging, I don't think they remain "casual," either. And while some of the particulars are don't compare quite so easily, I don't think the market is any different.

The established market users have access to no resource that a new, casual player can't acquire with time and experience, even if the new player does not actually start out equipped with that resource. An established player with multiple level 50s character has access to something that a new player doesn't start out with, but that new player can get there with time.

In the market, the main difference is that it's not as ... "instanced" as the rest of the game's progression. There's stuff there that helps you progress, but sometimes other people get to it first, and that can technically make that stuff "harder" to get to. Just because you're involved in some degree of competition, however, does not make that competition unfair. In this thread, serveral posters have revealed anecdotes about how they have not been playing long in the scheme of things, and how much wealth they have earned. They did that despite people like me playing the market and being extremely wealthy long before they came along, and some people not like me doing so much more aggressively.

You need to understand that there is so much influence coursing through the markets that "trickle-down" wealth distribution almost has no choice but to work in them. The rich players, be they old establishment or new, high-energy entrepreneurs, are willing to douse other people with money just to buy what they want quickly. The way bids and sales are matched plus the blind bid system encourages this. Other players who are not rich can use this extremely easily to get rich in startlingly little time. I agree that this is not immediately obvious to everyone, but it happens all the time to anyone who really bothers with the market.

The last part is key. We don't have to massively regulate the market, we just need to get word out that, despite being somewhat arcane, the market is actually very, very easy to use in terms of selling stuff to earn stuff. Perhaps that somewhat arcane nature makes it less friendly to new, casual players than it could be, but I don't believe it's so distant that they cannot learn to use it, and thus I am loath to mess with it directly in very severe ways.

While I may accept that the market could be better, I do not accept that it is actively broken and must therefore be fixed. "Fixing" the market is dangerous, because the market's vitality depends on player participation. If the "fix" drives down or away the existing core participants, then potential new participants will be less inclined to participate because sufficiently low core participation makes the market less useful as a tool to everyone.

Excellent question. To character builders and content players, to badgers everywhere, want and need are practically synonymous. I do not need to do every story arc. Yeah. I do. I do not need every badge. Yeah, I do. I do not need to pimp out my main characters in some insane makes sense only to me. Yeah, I do. And many other gamers just like me do as well. And since we game for content and enjoyment, as the Devs seem to prefer, we should be rewarded more than the farmers and marketeers. In my opinion. My feeling.

You seem to not be reading my posts, so this is the last time I will respond to you. You have to use the market like a store in oredr to use the I/O system. That is, unless you want to collect every recipe and ingredient yourself.

Really? I've never once walked into a store, tacked up a note about how much I was willing to pay for bread, then gone to sleep and had someone else who had bread they didn't need sell me the bread while I slept and leave it where I'd put my note.

But I've bought a ton of stuff on the market and made very thorough use of the I-O system. Curious, that.

This is another one of the fundamental things you don't grasp about the market.

If you knew more about the market, you might decide that it's not the discouraging thing you think it is.

Bolded my edits. Your again mistaking need and want.

That's the different between need and want. You feel you need to achieve all these things, and that's great, you have goals, that's awesome. Problem is, you want the shortest route from point A, where you are now to point B, where you want to be. Even after multiple people post the quickest route they know of, all you respond with is 'I don't want to do those things I feel that I need, so there should be other options for me.'

To which more people point out other options you could take, to which you still say the same thing. You feel entitled to these things, due to the amount of time you've been here, or the amount you play, or whatever your reason is, yet you refuse to learn how to adjust. Life is about choices, and you are choosing to ignore the advice in front of you every time it is presented.

Now, I would normally give you credit for sticking to your guns, but you've even changed you stance since the original post, so your not even doing that.

You want things to be easier then they are now, yet compared to any other MMO (or even RPG) out there, this is by far the EASIEST system I have come across in terms of getting loot and treasure as you put it. Any other MMO REQUIRES Farming. REQUIRES grinding out crafting items, and REQUIRES large amount of in game currency to pull off. We already have it exponentially easier then any other game out on the real work market. Why must you demand it be even easier?

and here is a very base disconnect you seem to have.

NO you should have all the very best gear after only a year of play.

ultra rares are the carrot that keeps some players playing for a very long time.

sure people want them (Including me; I love to brag) but there is no basic right to them.

Mids has really skewed the perception of this game; it allows you to ignore prices, rarity, RNG and game play all together and sets an expectation of having a toon with the very best gear and all you had to do was make a few clicks in Mids

Then you hit the market to go buy all this stuff and are slapped in the fact a few of the pieces are very expensive.

However if you play smart, sell the things you don't need, buy the things you do want maybe after a year of playing smart you can get all that top end gear, and with all that play time under your belt you'll be a superior player and also maybe realize you don't need the gear at all.

The funny thing is they simply aren't needed and are honestly more of an ego boot or bragging rights than anything. Nobody has ever said " if only I had the acc bonus from a purple set I would have survived that encounter"

One of the guys I play with has a purple'ed out bragging rights heavy toon, and a few that are SO only. I play with him often, say 3-4 task force a week, I know his play style pretty well. I can bare tell a performance difference in the toons because the player behind the keyboard is good.

Errr, actually, this is true. Sad but true. I even had to geek my last main, using all my vet respecs to strip purps from him. I have invested 99% of my treasure in my new main, and he is still not "complete". i FEEL that after fourty two months I should have at least 2-3 mains with good treasure on them, instead I have one uber main incomplete and a trail of geeked characters respec'd out of their limited treasure to create my main.

Furthermore, it is my belief that anyone who does not seriously farm or sit and market for the vast majority of their gaming experience will be in similar straights. Please, do not say again the game is based on SOs. to those of you saying it, I have never, ever, stated you were incorrect. Also, you never need any badges to play. You never need to complete TFs. You do not need any type of merits. You can really lock down you toon at level 1 with Exp earning turned off and have a great time. For those of us that want to "finish" characters, we require more. Including the I/O system. They i/O system is dependent on the market system. the market system is slanted towards long term farmers and marketeers. Therefore newbs are the victim of this setup. newbs are the future market of the Devs. The Devs do not want to alienate their new customers. So why would the Devs want to favor the current Farmers and Marketeers at the expense of all ther future business?

Others have said it, but is so incredibly important I'm going to repeat it too.

The market is not a store. I understand that you want it to be. We've explained reasons it almost certainly never will be. The stores you want exist. You need to use "currency" besides inf to access them, and this will almost certainly always be the case.

You seem to feel the system is not fair because, well, it doesn't work the way you would like it to. It's "fair" in the sense that everyone has the same access to it. No one else can crack the hood on the market and make it give them more stuff - everything anyone else can do, you can do too. I can understand that you may not want to do that stuff, but that's not unfair. And having it possibly take a long time to earn stuff (though I don't think nearly any example of how long it takes has been realistic) is not only not unfair, it's almost certainly intentional and thus very unlikely to change significantly any time soon.

Because you did it does not mean it was necessary in a game-mechanical sense. It was a choice, probably including many smaller choices on the way. One of those choices, for example, probably involved how active you were in using the market to earn money. You could have had a different outcome by making different choices.

The proof is that other people have done it. With the kind of argument you're making here, only one example to the contrary has to exist to counter your position, but we've had a fair handful of them.

Okay, seriously, let us be done with this very basic part of the discussion. YOU NEED TO USE THE MARKET IN ORDER TO USE THE I/O SYSTEM. You hear that? loud enough?

There is no way for a person to plan a build, then go out and personally collect every recipe and ingredient. You have to trade the ingredients and recipes you do recieve for those you want. Seriously, it is pretty basic. Unless you are trying not to hear me say this.

So, given you have to use the market to use the I/O system. You are at the mercy of Farmers and Marketeers who drive the price points. That have tons more treasure, and tons more market knowledge. The newb on the market, the newb in the game, gets walked on like the newest smallest prisoner in Folsom. Great if it was "City of abusers" not so god for "City of I want new players"

You just lumped people who want to 'finish' characters in with 'newb's. You really just aren't getting it. let me try to explain it a little better.

Just because YOUR doing it wrong, doesn't mean its not possible for some total newb to come along and do it much better then you. People spend less then 10 minutes a DAY and make BILLIONS of inf. How is that sitting in front of the market?

I log on a character, play until I fill up my salvage, then run to a vendor. I sell off any common recipes I have, then run to the market place, list the salvage I don't need at 300 for commons, 1200 for uncommons, and 6000 for rares, then buy up the salvage I need to make any set recipes I happened to get as drops. If I see I actually need the enhancement, I'll store it in my base, and then list and sell any other drop for 75% of the going rate. I determine the going rate by the average of the last 5 items that sold.

Using the above method, I have made billions of inf, I have been able to completed IO out multiple 50s to the point of finishing them (at lest until inherent fitness hits live). Just play the game, and follow that advice, and you will have the money to do whatever it is you want. Its really not that hard.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO TOUCH THE MARKET AT ALL IN ORDER TO USE THE INVENTION ORIGIN SYSTEM. That loud enough for you? Merits will get you the recipes you need, A-merits let you get exact recipes, and tickets from AE will let you get the salvage. Done. Never had to touch the market at all. Will it take longer? Yes.

But it is entirely possible. Just because YOU don't do it that way, doesn't mean it is not possible.

There are other options.

If you knew more about playing the market, you would know that it doesn't work like that. It has been pointed out that working the market doesn't take up "the vast majority" of play time. For me it takes anywhere from 15 sec to 5 minutes per day. Other people have different systems. There are many market guides out there. I am quite certain that not a single one of them suggests its readers should sp[end an inordinate amount of time at the market.
You're free to believe whatever you would like, but there's plenty of evidence that your belief about this is unfounded.

They are victims because they can get lucky drops and sell them for tens of millions? They are victims because they can generate inf and buy things from other players rather than having to luck into exactly what they are looking for? They are victims because... of what exactly? What harm is being done to new players?

Why would devs want to keep people who play the game playing the game? Mysterious.
There's no indication other than your assertion that the market--as it actually exists and functions as opposed to what you think the market is--is scaring away any new players.

I don't understand your vitriol for farmers. The word "farmer" is for someone who is out to produce drops. At their worst, an actual farmer likely a neutral price effect on the market, because they produce drops and inf at Dev-set proportions. At their best, they keep the market in a healthy supply of stuff. I promise you, if every farmer disappeared from the game tomorrow that a whole lot less stuff would be fore sale by the end of the week.

If you want to hate on anyone, you should probably be angry at AE powerlevelers. If you let your tickets cap out on a PL map, the AE produces Inf out of proportion to drops, which drives inflation.

Not all farmers are powerlevelers, and not all powerlevelers use the AE.

Next, you're back to unfounded claims that the market is "controlled" by marketeers. Are they out there? Yeah. Do they do stuff to prices from time to time? Yeah. They haven't stopped anyone else from getting rich enough off the market to get outfit their characters with way tricked out builds.

Over the years there are times where I'm not real interested in the game but not quite enough to cancel my sub. During those times the only thing I will do is market stuff. I will log on about twice a week for maybe 5-10 mins each session and I've made a few billions doing this. There are times where I will be in this style of playing habit for a couple months and it would equal closely around 1-2 hours of real game time.

In a sense, that is my "vast majority of gaming experience," in fact, it's all of my gaming experience(by choice). But in reality that is at most 2 hours of game time over a span of two months and I'm making billions. So, basically in the time of a MoSTF I have made a couple billion.

This stuff isn't difficult by any means. I'm horrible with math and numbers, but this is easy stuff that takes VERY little game time to do. I've helped and taught "newbs" about the market and how to make INF from it and they picked it up real quick. But I may have talked to the wrong "newbs" because they didn't run away scared.

I quit.

Seriously, over 500 hundred posts several of which have explained to you that the market is not a store and you still don't understand. I guess for you trying to learn new stuff is an exercise in futility, so I give up trying to teach.

By the way, I did read your posts and my replies mirror what I thought the contents of your posts were. Basically you wanting stuff right now, but at a price lower than others are willing to pay because you aren't willing to put in the effort.

Don't bother replying, you can't possibly undermine your own argument any better than with the bolded section of the quote. I believe you can blow 42 months worth of savings if you really believe the market functions like a store. That said, the "using the wrong metric" sort of analogy is perfect here: if you don't use it how it's intended, don't cry when the effects don't work out to be how you'd like them to be. See? If you use the market as a store, you will be using much more influence than necessary. Smart use of the market will have you save your bits of virtual money, but I guess it's all about not bothering to learn stuff and then crying because of it.

Getting angry, are you? You know, caps don't make you seem any more intelligent or make your arguments any more valid. Rather the opposite. Then again, I guess "we wouldn't be saying this to your face in real life. We wouldn't." Perhaps you being a big chap and using an aggressive tone makes opposition quiet in real life, but sadly internet tough guys only attract opposition who mostly come just for laughs. Too bad.

Lol at this thread and its purpose


EDIT: /agree

Okay! I think at this point, I can understand where you're coming from.

I don't think I agree, but I think I get it. You're not talking about theoretical economics; you're talking about the experience of, as a player, trying to build a character a particular way and finding that you can't. Is that right?

... I'll continue this post as though you said yes, but if I'm wrong about that, the rest of this may be nonsensical.

Go look in early to mid July for a thread by me on how we're supposed to get stuff in this game if we don't have a level 50 to generate inf for us. I was having an experience similar to yours, except I was having it at a lower level; I was getting my first characters into the 20s, and I had some recipes for things I wanted to craft... and I couldn't. I couldn't figure out how to craft those things, because I couldn't afford the components for them.

People walked me through ways to make money, many of which required you to start by already having money. I kid you not, it was helpful to me when someone pointed out (in-game, not in the thread) that you could buy 51-53 SOs really cheap and vendor them. It helped me get that starting money, which I didn't otherwise understand how to get.

And here's the thing... It was, yes, a little discouraging. But not so much that I quit, and once I understood it, it stopped being discouraging.

So let's talk a little bit about feelings and expectations.

Here is the thing: If you are feeling discouraged, it's almost always because of a mismatch between your expectations and the world around you. This does not tell you whether it is your expectations or the world that is "wrong". I'm not even sure "wrong" is a meaningful way to talk about such a thing. I know people who hate cats, because cats don't obey commands. I love cats, because cats don't obey commands. Are cats right or wrong? No. Cats are just cats. Is obeying commands right or wrong? No. Obeying commands is just obeying commands. However, if you must live with cats, you will be a lot happier if you learn not to expect them to obey commands.

You seem to be coming to CoH with the expectation that it is reasonable to be able to "complete" a character by acquiring complete IO builds including purples and PvP IOs. I do not believe this expectation matches the developers' intent. I believe their design is that you "complete" a character by buying level-appropriate SOs, and that anything past that is progression. And progression is supposed to take a while. Possibly a long while.

I think the issue here is not that the game is misdesigned, or that the game is designed correctly. It's not that your expectations are right or wrong. It's that your expectations and the game's nature are not in alignment.

If you want to move from "my expectations and the game's nature are not in alignment" to "the game is wrong", you have to establish that your expectations are somehow objectively more reasonable than those that other players have. And I think you're going to have a hard time with that, potentially, because the current structure of the game is not inherently unfun. If your expectation were "my choices have some kind of impact on what happens", and the game's reality was "your character is instantly mind-controlled in combat and plays like a mastermind pet", and you said the game sucked, a lot of people would agree. Lack of control is
consistently regarded as "unfun" by most players.

But in this case, lots of people like and enjoy the progression aspect of the IO system. CoH has, always, been more about journey than arrival. There is a reason that so many people hold power levellers in contempt. One of my friends decided to pop into an AE farm to level... For about six levels, to get over a hump. As soon as that hump was over, it was "hey, let's go see if we can do some story arcs in Steel Canyon". Because that's more fun.

Imagine, if you will, a thing like an AE farm. Call it a Market Farm. You log in, you go to the Market Farm, you buy a bunch of Rikti-Os that are, due to a bug, giving you purples every time you sell them back to a vendor. You can purple out a character in an hour or so of messing with the Market Farm.

Would you use it? I wouldn't. I'd play the invention system the way it is now, warts and all, so I could be progressing over time. So that every time I log in, now and for the next few months, I would be looking to see if I'd gotten a recipe, and every purchase would be a noticeable, if small, increase in my character's power. That would be a fun experience of progressing and developing.

Being purpled is not as fun as getting purpled, and it's fine by me that it takes a long time. I don't find that "discouraging" any more than I'm "discouraged" when I kill my first Hellion, get 10xp, and try to figure out how many Hellions I'll have to kill to make level 50.

Actually, uhm.

No, you don't. Sure, it's probably faster to do so, but you can get all the salvage and recipes you want for merits and tickets. Do tips, run AE missions, you will be able to buy exactly and specifically the things you want. It'll take a while, but you can do it.

Except they don't.

That's the point. The price points are driven by the market as a whole, and the vast majority of the participants are not marketeers or farmers, just ordinary players.

Heck, I market pretty actively, and a good 20-30% of what I do consists of just listing everything in my inventory for 1 inf to clear out my salvage inventory or enhancement tray. For about half the enhancements I list, I don't even look at current prices or bid/ask, I just type 1, hit post, and move on.

And when I do set prices, I set them marginally above my costs, and leave it to purchasers to, without any prompting from me, offer 2-3 times what I listed for. Or more.

Again, I listed a stack of enhancements at 7k, and people gave me 400k for them. There were no outstanding bids when I listed, so this is people coming in, seeing 20+ enhancements for sale, and no bids, and STARTING with a bid that's twice the highest number in the last five.

I don't know if it will end up lining up with B_C's outlook, seebs, but I think that was a great post.