Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
So what you're saying is if I write a nice big post and in the middle I throw in a big middle finger you'll ignore the whole post?
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2 billion per enhancer
Nicely written Uber Guy, I tried to cut out stuff I am not directly responding to, and still had half a wal of text. Very thoughtful stuff. We re at least having the same conversation.
It is the I/O system in general that I am trying to address. The reason it is posted in the market area is simple: No one toon, no mtter how lucky, ill get the ight mic of recipes/salvage to kit themselves out. therefore, they have to trade with other players via the market. However, this is my FEELING, the market system does not serve new/casual players well, nor does it serve the Devs well. Again, I cannot quantify this, I have no spreadsheets to give you, but there is a Truthiness to it. And trust me, John Stewart and Steven Colbert play around with a lot of facts/non facts, yet many people actually follow them for news because of that same Truthiness. You kinda have a feeling when you are getting a god deal, and a enetirely different feeling when getting ripped off. I get that ripped off feeling from the market, and have for a very long time. To me, the market is necessary, because you need it to trade for I/Os and Salvage with other players. But the abuses in the market need to be reined in. The market favors long term players and farmers, because they have effectively unlimited cash. This puts new players and non famers (who mostly play content) at a huge disadvantage. Unfairness in any system ruins everything. |
I know that people are wiling to pay 2 billion, or over 2 billion for certain enhancers. I believe this is bad for the game, bad for new players, bad for the franchise. This will lead to discouragement for new players, and discouraging new customers is the epitome of stupid marketing tricks. So yes, people pay 2 billion plus. I think this hurts the game.
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If you list a glad proc for 6 inf, you are very unlikely to get 6 inf for it, no matter how much you want to sell it for 6 inf. As the seller, you can't control that.
First of all, I never said I was an expert on the market.
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I do not enjoy standing at the market. I will even share why. I help manage car auctions as my job. I do not want to log onto my video game and do my F-ing job. I log onto this game to create villains and heroes to run around a world with superpowers. i log onto this game to create and animate the characters that I write about, paint, draw, and game with in over the table top RPGs. I absolutely do not log onto this game to play the market.
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Should prices at the market make it nigh impossible to finish even one character after 42 months of gaming. NO.
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Instead, I play the game, I play it at low levels, I play it for fun.
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Especially since everything I read from the Devs says they encourage this kind of play, I would like to see some in game rewards that indicate this.
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Instead, the farmers and marketeers who do not play, or grind the same mish constantly, they get all the good treasure.
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Most marketeers will tell you that farm grinding is for suckers.
I could, but I won't and I haven't.
In the end I am building a logical case to present to the Devs that they need to reward the type of play they say they encourage.
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But, it hasn't yet.
BC, at least tell us if you now understand how bidders are matched with sellers, and if you now understand that it is buyers who set prices by bidding over what sellers ask.
edit: by "tell us you understand" I mean "explain your understanding" because I am thinking you are still labouring under the FIFO delusion.
I FEEL that the market needs adjusting, since after 42 mnths of play I must strip every toon I have of all treasure to fully complete one character, and still fall short of having the supplies needed.
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IMVHO, your understanding of the market is directly relevant to the quality of your suggestions. Obviously, YMMV.
If you run this main character for a year, should you have the character decked out in the best treasure the game has, or near it.
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I say that lots of people do just this. I also say that your assessment of what's the 'best' is flawed.
Because the Devs want you to enjoy the game. I can finish all my old Armored Core from beginning to end in under a month per game, doing all content. The Devs are competing with console games, as well as other on-line games.
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They need to make it so that these characters have the opportunity to be finished, since that is what people buy into at the beginning.
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Can I quantify this. NO. But there is a "Truthiness" to it.
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Believe me, gamers signing on to this for the first time do not want to hear: "Well, if you do 50 content exclusively, never alt, and grind for a couple years, you might be able to finish one character with full top of the line sets, but avoid the storylines, grind the same TF and farms constant man." Seriously, not a good marketing strategy.
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There are many ways to play different toons in this game. Purples and PvP IOs are not the best choice for many, many toons and playstyles.
Notice, I keep talking about marketing strategy to bring in new players and retain them.
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The vast majority of the respondents in these posts keep talking about the in-game market. We have been having two entirely different conversations from the beginning. Partly my fault, i keep getting distracted by the taunt bots. So I am sorry.
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The important thing to remember is we are talking about not the in-game market. We are talking about revising the system so new / re-signing up players are encouraged that they can really make their character something great, without putting in years per character. Let's here discussion on that.
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I've been playing for about 51 months (i think i will be getting that badge anyday now actually) And every single one of my 50s have a complete IO build. I have about 12 50s.
Multiple builds that are 'finished' have purples in them. I have 1 build that even has PvP Ios. I've never spent more then 1 billion for any IO, and i have all three procs in that build.
I worked at it, i crafted and sold my drops, and i found means to make money without resulting to AE, or even Korean RMT spammers.
I'm also currently level up and playing 8 different characters all in praetoria, all of whom i'm level locking at certain levels to do all the content. I sent some money over their way, and nearly all of them have made enough profits from just paying the game (not any marketeering) that they have over the amount i sent them, while still rocking the higher level enhancements i could buy.
B_C you have to consider the difference between want and need. You say you need these IOs to complete your characters, yet the IO system is completely optionial. Why would anyone need IOs when a fully SO'ed out character is what the game is balanced around? The only thing people need to run ANY content successfully is the alpha slot, and an alpha boost slotting in it, so they aren't nerfed too heavily when they run 2(two) high end task forces.
Sellers are willing to pay whatever price they set in order to get certain IOs. You do realize that when PvP ios were first released, the current 'high value' items were going for a fraction of what they cost now? Then people released what they did, how they worked, and just how rare they are, so the prices starting going up. And if you actually watch those prices, they are starting to decline back down that. At the peak, certain PvP IOs were going for excess of 3 billion per, and were only selling off the market.
Your also only looking at high level enhancements. I purchases my level 37 Pancea proc for only 1 billion inf, straight off the market at a buy it now price. Its the best 1 billion i've ever spent, and I do not regret spending the money at all on that enhancement.
Why do you have such an issue with that fact a 'Player controlled' Market is being controlled by the 'players'? If you feel you need certain enhancements to perform well in a team enviroment then you need to understand that those enhancement will cost you a lot. If you are unwilling to spend the money on said enhancements, then it is noone fault but your own that you can not attain those items.
New players do not look at the market and say 'Wow, i'll never get those things.' New players actually are prone to flat out ignoring the market. I know multiple people who liked city better when it didnt have a market, and they had to earn things the 'old fashion way' even though its a completely optionial system. New players can play, and interact with other players just fine while using SOs. Besides the Incarnate Task Forces, what other concent is limited to specific enhancements?
Your argument seems to be that you want these things more easily.
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I believe 6-12 months on a character should bring this level of development, this level of treasure. I believe it will help the City of franchise.
2 billion per enhancer, and let me say what has been imlied from the beginning, 1 billion per enhancer, is too much. It discourages people who play to develop characters. It is only encouraging to farmers. The Devs keep saying they want to encourage people playing content. I take them at their word. They have recently instituted measures that indicates they are puuting their skills behind their stated positions. I am sure they want to examine how the out of control market economy is not helpful or useful to a newb, nor will it be in the future. It is set up for the benefit of Farmers and Marketeers.
I have already outed myself as someone who helps manage car auctions in RL. (one of the reasons i hate doing auction work in-game) Guess who profits from auto auctions? Car dealers. Dealing in olume, with experience, knowedge, mechanics, tow trucks, a whole system. Guess who loses? the average consumer. With one transaction, up against experts dealing in volume. Guess who the Devs in City of need to side withto increase customer happiness? The Car Dealers? NOPE. So the consumers? DING. Yep, the City of Devs need to make market modifications so that recipes and salvage are available to average consumers at reasonable rates to encourage game happiness. Sorry farmers, you are a severely limited group of the Devs marketing strategy. And, even nerfed (for the umpteenth time?) we all know the farmers will land on their feet with a new trick. So, the devs need to help the little guy, the new player, the average consumer. and get rid of stupid high Market prices for I/Os. In my opinion.
To be fair, they have made the market completely ignorable.
I FEEL that the market needs adjusting, since after 42 mnths of play I must strip every toon I have of all treasure to fully complete one character, and still fall short of having the supplies needed. |
Now, many have commented on my play skill, my tactics, and lesser relevant things about me. Much like my market skill, these things do not matter. |
Basically, all this thread seems to be about is you arguing market should be changed because you don't like it, and the reason you don't like it is because you refuse to put in the effort to learn more effective ways to get the rarest stuff in the game. Lol.
I'm not sure if I should even mention how ridiculous I find it that your "dream build" is just a bunch of the most expensive items in the game, while it could be much better and more effective with way cheaper slotting. Perhaps if you realized that you would cease whining.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
BC, at least tell us if you now understand how bidders are matched with sellers, and if you now understand that it is buyers who set prices by bidding over what sellers ask.
edit: by "tell us you understand" I mean "explain your understanding" because I am thinking you are still labouring under the FIFO delusion. |
We are not discussing the in game market. My knowledge of the ins and outs of the City of Market are irrelevant. Your implication that I have no idea at all how the market works is boring.
We are discussing how new players are discouraged by the in game market, and a new players ability to start a character, and get good stuff for a character, in a reasonable period of time, partly using the market to accomplish this,
As I have been stating all day, starting to avoid the taunt bots. Probably (Hopefully) the last post of this type I will respond to.
We are not discussing the in game market. My knowledge of the ins and outs of the City of Market are irrelevant. Your implication that I have no idea at all how the market works is boring. We are discussing how new players are discouraged by the in game market, and a new players ability to start a character, and get good stuff for a character, in a reasonable period of time, partly using the market to accomplish this, |
Since you don't understand how the market works, how can you know how to fix it?
Yes, yes I do. Thank you. tht is the point of the entire post. 2 billion is too much per enhancer. I want things easier than that. I want to be able to kit out a 50 with really good procs/globals/LOTG by about 4 months play, and have mostly purps, maybe even a PvP set on them by 12 months, without stripping treasure from every other character I have.
I believe 6-12 months on a character should bring this level of development, this level of treasure. I believe it will help the City of franchise. |
There is nothing to fix. It can be done now if you want to do it.
I don't know how I can be any more clear.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
Originally Posted by Blue Centurion
You can hurl insults, tell me I am whining...
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What we started trying to tell you is:
You simply don't get it -- ANY of it. You are as mistaken in ALL of
your statements as I've ever seen anybody ever be with regards to the
market.
With ever greater degrees of exasperation countless people have cited
examples both in-game and in RL that refute ALL of your ideas.
You ignore them. You don't read them, you don't think about them, and
you certainly do not understand them.
That is NOT an insult - that is an OBSERVATION.
There are actual words in the dictionary that describe the complete
inability to learn - those are factual words with distinct meaning tied to
distinctly exhibited behaviour.
WE are not allowed to say them, in spite of the clear fact that you
repeatedly demonstrate their definition with every one of your posts.
Spouting mindless drivel appears perfectly acceptable, but a truthful reply
categorizing that content is frowned upon if the connotation is negative
(even when accurately categorized).
SO, Instead, I'm going to ask a favor of you.
PLEASE go away - write whatever letter you want to the devs. After this
many pages (and more than a couple other threads) I'm sure your highly
enlightened marketing mind has fully formulated its brilliant solution, and
I'm equally certain the devs can't wait, and would love to hear it.
Go. Write Devs. Do it now....
My second request is that this thread be LOCKED (like it should have been
way back on page ONE).
Thanks in Advance
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
This is still not true. Repeating it again will not add to its validity.
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So, I repeat again. I FEEL the market is unfavorably weighted to farmers and long term marketeers to the disadvantage of new and content driven players. This is a feeling. It is my feeling. Saying it once, with honesty, is all that is required. I may be wrong, but my feeling is entirely true. The fact of the matter is I believe new and casual players may feel the way I do much more readily than they will come around to your position. So, the game is skewed in your favor, you want it to stay that way, even if it hurts new City of customers. In my opinion. My feeling.
I have already outed myself as someone who helps manage car auctions in RL. (one of the reasons i hate doing auction work in-game) Guess who profits from auto auctions? Car dealers. Dealing in olume, with experience, knowedge, mechanics, tow trucks, a whole system. Guess who loses? the average consumer. With one transaction, up against experts dealing in volume. Guess who the Devs in City of need to side withto increase customer happiness? The Car Dealers? NOPE. So the consumers? DING. Yep, the City of Devs need to make market modifications so that recipes and salvage are available to average consumers at reasonable rates to encourage game happiness. Sorry farmers, you are a severely limited group of the Devs marketing strategy. And, even nerfed (for the umpteenth time?) we all know the farmers will land on their feet with a new trick. So, the devs need to help the little guy, the new player, the average consumer. and get rid of stupid high Market prices for I/Os. In my opinion.
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Also, enhancement stores allows average consumers to get TOs, DOs, and SOs, at the same rates no matter where you buy them, and the game is functionally balanced around these 'set rate' enhancements. So, using your 'car dealership' example, i'll add to it.
You have your own car dealership, and your selling sport cars at a 15% lose but you don't let your customers know your selling point. All you tell them is that you have cars for sale, cars which can run a quarter mile in about 6 seconds, and top out at around 350MPH, and they can name a price until it sells. What you do show the customers is what the last 5 cars sold for, but you still don't tell them what your selling your cars for. On average, you make money on each sale, when compared to what your originally bought the sport cars for. This is basically how our in game market works.
Now, across the street from your car dealership is a chain company, that also sells cars. Except their cars aren't sports cars, can't run a quarter mile in less then 15 seconds, and top out at about 100MPH. Now, these cars are always the same price, and that price is displays clearly so everyone can see it. This is basically how our in game enhancement stores work.
Now, the city you live in, has Autobahn basically everywhere, with a minimal speed limit of 45MPH. Now, both your set price cars, and your sport cars can go at lest that fast. You also notice that everywhere you look in your city, there are advertisements for the set price cars. You see maybe 1 to every 5 advertisements for your sports cars, and 4 outta 5 for the set price ones. Knowing that you can get around in the set rate car, why would you complain that someone is selling sports cars right across the street?
I was discussing my feelings. Lets just say that I know how I feel, and since yo refuse to read my words, or believe they are not true, you do not.
So, I repeat again. I FEEL the market is unfavorably weighted to farmers and long term marketeers to the disadvantage of new and content driven players. This is a feeling. It is my feeling. Saying it once, with honesty, is all that is required. I may be wrong, but my feeling is entirely true. The fact of the matter is I believe new and casual players may feel the way I do much more readily than they will come around to your position. So, the game is skewed in your favor, you want it to stay that way, even if it hurts new City of customers. In my opinion. My feeling. |
What is not true is the underlined part that caused your feeling:
"I FEEL that the market needs adjusting, since after 42 mnths of play I must strip every toon I have of all treasure to fully complete one character, and still fall short of having the supplies needed."The reason you give for your feeling is untrue. If what you say is true, and this is the reason for your feeling then you can be freed to change your feeling because your reason is false.
However, I continue because I KNOW that those of us here that put forth facts about how the game actually works will show the new players that might come across this type of mis-information, based upon feelings and nebulous, unsubstantiated accusations, that facts are what matter.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
I was discussing my feelings. Lets just say that I know how I feel, and since yo refuse to read my words, or believe they are not true, you do not.
So, I repeat again. I FEEL the market is unfavorably weighted to farmers and long term marketeers to the disadvantage of new and content driven players. This is a feeling. It is my feeling. Saying it once, with honesty, is all that is required. I may be wrong, but my feeling is entirely true. The fact of the matter is I believe new and casual players may feel the way I do much more readily than they will come around to your position. So, the game is skewed in your favor, you want it to stay that way, even if it hurts new City of customers. In my opinion. My feeling. |
If you set the price caps of purples and PVP IOs to 500mil, rares to 250mil or whatever arbitrary sum might be chosen, it would still favour farmers and marketeers. If they aren't the only ones who can get those items, they will be able to get more of them and yet again we would have people whining about it. The only solution to that is to make them so cheap that anyone can get full sets of purples faster than they can get to 50, which again would devalue the sense of achievement and in the end lead to people getting bored with the game. Is this what you want to happen?
Also, I'd still like to know why your feeling that a change is needed is more valuable and important than my feeling that a change is not needed.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Yes, yes I do. Thank you. tht is the point of the entire post. 2 billion is too much per enhancer. I want things easier than that. I want to be able to kit out a 50 with really good procs/globals/LOTG by about 4 months play, and have mostly purps, maybe even a PvP set on them by 12 months, without stripping treasure from every other character I have.
I believe 6-12 months on a character should bring this level of development, this level of treasure. I believe it will help the City of franchise. 2 billion per enhancer, and let me say what has been imlied from the beginning, 1 billion per enhancer, is too much. It discourages people who play to develop characters. It is only encouraging to farmers. The Devs keep saying they want to encourage people playing content. I take them at their word. They have recently instituted measures that indicates they are puuting their skills behind their stated positions. I am sure they want to examine how the out of control market economy is not helpful or useful to a newb, nor will it be in the future. It is set up for the benefit of Farmers and Marketeers. I have already outed myself as someone who helps manage car auctions in RL. (one of the reasons i hate doing auction work in-game) Guess who profits from auto auctions? Car dealers. Dealing in olume, with experience, knowedge, mechanics, tow trucks, a whole system. Guess who loses? the average consumer. With one transaction, up against experts dealing in volume. Guess who the Devs in City of need to side withto increase customer happiness? The Car Dealers? NOPE. So the consumers? DING. Yep, the City of Devs need to make market modifications so that recipes and salvage are available to average consumers at reasonable rates to encourage game happiness. Sorry farmers, you are a severely limited group of the Devs marketing strategy. And, even nerfed (for the umpteenth time?) we all know the farmers will land on their feet with a new trick. So, the devs need to help the little guy, the new player, the average consumer. and get rid of stupid high Market prices for I/Os. In my opinion. |
Problem : Shiny expensive car costs 1.5 million dollars , Mr. CRSM only makes 45k a year.
Your solution : Put price caps on shiny expensive car so anyone can afford it.
Real viable solution : Earn more money so that shiny expensive car is within your spending range.
The issue is that the real viable solution requires effort that many people aren't willing to put in to achieve their goal.
The market is not supposed to look friendly to every casual joe because the market is 1) PvP and 2) not a store.
Complaining that you want to own a garage comparable to Jay Leno when you only make a fraction of what he does is complete and utter non sense driven entitlement issues. There is no logical argument you can successfully use to justify that kind of a position.
Showing up at a new car dealer and asking to buy a new Mazeratti or some such with only 10k in hand doesn't work.
PvP and purple IOs are the shiny expensive cars of CoH and no, not everyone should get 5 for creating a new character .
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
There is no logical argument you can successfully use to justify that kind of a position.
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"It has to be changed because I want stuff without putting the effort towards earning them."
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
I set up a build this weekend while away from the game. I logged in this morning to price the build. Many of the enhancers I were looking at were 2 billion PER ENHANCER. Do the developers really think that people want to play a game that only full time farmers get stuff in? I have 42 months in this game, most of my toons are SO'd, and one, ONE, has a couple billion in it. These things are selling for 2 bill each, so, let me think, I would need to game about 20 years at my current rate to get one toon filled with these things.
Do the developers really believe this is what makes for a happy gaming community? I think I am gonna log for a month or two. I can workout, play music, do art, but I'll be damned if I sit and farm for 3 months to afford like 3 of the things that I figure i'll need 18 of. |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
I'll give you a real world example of you. Mr. Car repair shop manager likes shiny things. Mr. CRSM sees Jay Leno rolling around in his shiny expensive car and says "I want!".
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(Okay, he's just rollin' but I bet he's thinking about it...)
President of the Arbiter Sands fan club. We will never forget.
An Etruscan Snood will nevermore be free
I'll give you a real world example of you. Mr. Car repair shop manager likes shiny things. Mr. CRSM sees Jay Leno rolling around in his shiny expensive car and says "I want!" .
Problem : Shiny expensive car costs 1.5 million dollars , Mr. CRSM only makes 45k a year. Your solution : Put price caps on shiny expensive car so anyone can afford it. Real viable solution : Earn more money so that shiny expensive car is within your spending range. The issue is that the real viable solution requires effort that many people aren't willing to put in to achieve their goal. The market is not supposed to look friendly to every casual joe because the market is 1) PvP and 2) not a store. Complaining that you want to own a garage comparable to Jay Leno when you only make a fraction of what he does is complete and utter non sense driven entitlement issues. There is no logical argument you can successfully use to justify that kind of a position. Showing up at a new car dealer and asking to buy a new Mazeratti or some such with only 10k in hand doesn't work. PvP and purple IOs are the shiny expensive cars of CoH and no, not everyone should get 5 for creating a new character . |
What a wild off base comparison. Are you under the misapprehension that there is a Maserati switch in the real world that would cause sports cars to sprout from underneath every tree ?
In the real world the market is meant to reward people for providing resources,services what have you more in a better way. These things have actual scarcity that can't be adjusted except by the deity.
Making that argument here, makes you sound like someone who gets a charge out of having things others don't have and want.
*brb searching for Maserati switch*