I have a handy rule I use when in situations like this, which runs something like this:
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Economic interactions? Really not so much so.
| The only thing that is reasonable to compare to **** is ****. |
Wow...just wanna give a little golf clap here. 27 pages of win.
Was reading through this and I started thinking about how, when CoV first released, I would be very careful to sell all my TOs and take DOs to the store of their orgin all in the hopes of maybe affording a few SOs.
Yeah gee, the market is sure a bummer. The worst part about it is how hard it's made it for a new player to get started financially. Yep.
Open the pod bay doors, Hal.
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I'm only continuing posting because this thread is so hilarious. |
Originally Posted by The_Ringer
Wow...just wanna give a little golf clap here. 27 pages of win.
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Was reading through this and I started thinking about how, when CoV first released, I would be very careful to sell all my TOs and take DOs to the store of their orgin all in the hopes of maybe affording a few SOs. Yeah gee, the market is sure a bummer. The worst part about it is how hard it's made it for a new player to get started financially. Yep. |
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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Anyone who has run across the right threads with me knows I'm a dogged poster. On top of that, I thought it deserved something that B_C did change his tone, if not his position. I wanted to try and give info at least related to what he asked for during the transition.|
Originally Posted by DSorrow
I don't think he's the right guy you should be trying to make know the difference between need vs. want and reality vs. expectations. After all, we've been trying to do that for almost 30 pages and what have we accomplished? Not much if anything at all.
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Unfortunately, at the core, it seems awfully hard to convince B_C that his actual, non-theoretical, mechanical experience with using the market to obtain IOs can be different or better than the way he's experienced it so far. If love your cat, and your experience with microwave ovens was that you put your cat in there, pressed a button and got a cooked cat, you aren't going to like microwave ovens much. I try hard not to use my microwave like that, and I'm probably a lot more satisfied with it as a result.
No one here can make anyone like using the market, but we can show ways that allow doing so to at least be useful, practical, and even convenient at times. But if B_C won't believe us, or take any of the lessons to heart, then I agree the discussion doesn't have much value, no matter how dogged one is.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
It's interesting that he can hold both the position that he doesn't understand the market and that he knows how to 'fix' it. All the while telling people who're successfully using the market how wrong they are.
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I'm not surprised to be honest. He has presented many other "threads of logic" of the same quality, so he must be experienced in this kind of thing.
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Originally Posted by all_hell
It's interesting that he can hold both the position that he doesn't understand the market and that he knows how to 'fix' it. All the while telling people who're successfully using the market how wrong they are.
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- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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Calm down, and stop moving your goalposts. You said that you need to use the market LIKE A STORE (do the caps help you remember what scrolling back up doesn't seem to enable?). You don't. It's not. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Okay, seriously, let us be done with this very basic part of the discussion. YOU NEED TO USE THE MARKET IN ORDER TO USE THE I/O SYSTEM. You hear that? loud enough?
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| There is no way for a person to plan a build, then go out and personally collect every recipe and ingredient. You have to trade the ingredients and recipes you do recieve for those you want. Seriously, it is pretty basic. Unless you are trying not to hear me say this. |
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| So, given you have to use the market to use the I/O system. You are at the mercy of Farmers and Marketeers who drive the price points. That have tons more treasure, and tons more market knowledge. |
I reject your premise that anyone can't get rich on this market, barring the lazy, the stupid, and the stubbornly argumentative.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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This is entirely true if you CHOOSE not to use AE tickets and merits. Otherwise, it's false.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
YOU NEED TO USE THE MARKET IN ORDER TO USE THE I/O SYSTEM. You hear that? loud enough?
There is no way for a person to plan a build, then go out and personally collect every recipe and ingredient. You have to trade the ingredients and recipes you do recieve for those you want. |
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Most of the last 5 were going for 3-5M. The buyer just purchased at the typical price, rather than trying something lower. Just because you want to force yourself to have no understanding of simple concepts doesn't mean that others are as willfully ignorant. This is no anomaly - many in this forum have seen the exact same thing happen. It's standard behavior, because most people aren't as completely blind as you to reality.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Or your buyer had a typo moment. Or the market interface geeked him and he was trying to buy something else. Lets look for serious patterns and discuss those, not anomalies.
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RagManX
"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2
The economy is not broken. The players are
r/e 'typo moment':
Maybe I've found a hidden coven of SERIAL TYPO-ISTS, because I've been working several niches this week where I've listed eighty or so crafted IOs at 2-4 million and sold every last one of them for 15-20 million.
Who knew CoH players were such awful typists!
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Okay, you believe this to be true. I believe that it discourages people, and that people should be able to kit out approx. one character per year in ultra rares, and I have explained why multiple times.|
Originally Posted by _23X_
and here is a very base disconnect you seem to have.
NO you should have all the very best gear after only a year of play. ultra rares are the carrot that keeps some players playing for a very long time. |
Could you be specific in how you think people not getting this makes them want to play more, and how long it should take for a person to kit out one character in ultra rares for it to be more attractive?
For the last few days, I've played about five hours, running alignment missions on two characters (at +0/x1, no bosses). I'm switching them over to the Villain side to unlock Patron Pools, so I haven't even eligible for A-merits in that time. Just from crafting and selling drops, I've made about 150 million in that time, with probably another 5-10 in influence from kills. Comparatively speaking, that's about as slow as inf gain gets on this forum, but it would still allow me to IO out a build in a matter of weeks.
It's clear that discussing economic theory -- real-world or in-game -- with you is pointless, B_C. So post your build. Seriously, post it. I'll help you. I'm sure others will too.
You don't need all of those super-expensive IOs. Sometimes, throwing influence at a build can even hurt its performance.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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To kitg out a charcter in 5 purple sets would require 1200 uniterrupted days of TIPing at 50. Add in 2 sets of PVPs and another 360 days, and then a few procs, etc comes to about 6 to 7 years. When I presented this figure earlier in these posts I was widely ridiculed. In fact, it is truly inefficient. We all know the only effective way to kit out a toon is to use the Market. |
Originally Posted by Arbegla
YOU DO NOT NEED TO TOUCH THE MARKET AT ALL IN ORDER TO USE THE INVENTION ORIGIN SYSTEM. That loud enough for you? Merits will get you the recipes you need, A-merits let you get exact recipes, and tickets from AE will let you get the salvage. Done. Never had to touch the market at all. Will it take longer? Yes.
But it is entirely possible. Just because YOU don't do it that way, doesn't mean it is not possible. |
This will be one of the last times I respond to disingenuous posts such as this.
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Ultra rare "stuff" keeps people playing because they have things to continually strive for. There's always that next IO or next badge that they want, and that keeps them playing longer.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Okay, you believe this to be true. I believe that it discourages people, and that people should be able to kit out approx. one character per year in ultra rares, and I have explained why multiple times.
Could you be specific in how you think people not getting this makes them want to play more, and how long it should take for a person to kit out one character in ultra rares for it to be more attractive? |
Let me ask you this, after you pimp out your character with IO's what then? What will you do then?
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And you have been show over and over and over again that is can be done in that time frame.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
...people should be able to kit out approx. one character per year in ultra rares...
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"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Worthy of repost, in entirety. As pointed out after this, I may still be like "It takes too long". Yes, yes I would. I have been very clear about what price points (250 mil for purps, 500 mil for PvP I/Os) and how long it should approximately take to kit out one character really sweet (including Purps, Procs, Globals, and PvPs, about a year at 50) I think this would suit the game well, and anything too much longer than this threats with being discouraging.|
Originally Posted by seebs
Okay! I think at this point, I can understand where you're coming from.
I don't think I agree, but I think I get it. You're not talking about theoretical economics; you're talking about the experience of, as a player, trying to build a character a particular way and finding that you can't. Is that right? ... I'll continue this post as though you said yes, but if I'm wrong about that, the rest of this may be nonsensical. Go look in early to mid July for a thread by me on how we're supposed to get stuff in this game if we don't have a level 50 to generate inf for us. I was having an experience similar to yours, except I was having it at a lower level; I was getting my first characters into the 20s, and I had some recipes for things I wanted to craft... and I couldn't. I couldn't figure out how to craft those things, because I couldn't afford the components for them. People walked me through ways to make money, many of which required you to start by already having money. I kid you not, it was helpful to me when someone pointed out (in-game, not in the thread) that you could buy 51-53 SOs really cheap and vendor them. It helped me get that starting money, which I didn't otherwise understand how to get. And here's the thing... It was, yes, a little discouraging. But not so much that I quit, and once I understood it, it stopped being discouraging. So let's talk a little bit about feelings and expectations. Here is the thing: If you are feeling discouraged, it's almost always because of a mismatch between your expectations and the world around you. This does not tell you whether it is your expectations or the world that is "wrong". I'm not even sure "wrong" is a meaningful way to talk about such a thing. I know people who hate cats, because cats don't obey commands. I love cats, because cats don't obey commands. Are cats right or wrong? No. Cats are just cats. Is obeying commands right or wrong? No. Obeying commands is just obeying commands. However, if you must live with cats, you will be a lot happier if you learn not to expect them to obey commands. You seem to be coming to CoH with the expectation that it is reasonable to be able to "complete" a character by acquiring complete IO builds including purples and PvP IOs. I do not believe this expectation matches the developers' intent. I believe their design is that you "complete" a character by buying level-appropriate SOs, and that anything past that is progression. And progression is supposed to take a while. Possibly a long while. I think the issue here is not that the game is misdesigned, or that the game is designed correctly. It's not that your expectations are right or wrong. It's that your expectations and the game's nature are not in alignment. If you want to move from "my expectations and the game's nature are not in alignment" to "the game is wrong", you have to establish that your expectations are somehow objectively more reasonable than those that other players have. And I think you're going to have a hard time with that, potentially, because the current structure of the game is not inherently unfun. If your expectation were "my choices have some kind of impact on what happens", and the game's reality was "your character is instantly mind-controlled in combat and plays like a mastermind pet", and you said the game sucked, a lot of people would agree. Lack of control is consistently regarded as "unfun" by most players. But in this case, lots of people like and enjoy the progression aspect of the IO system. CoH has, always, been more about journey than arrival. There is a reason that so many people hold power levellers in contempt. One of my friends decided to pop into an AE farm to level... For about six levels, to get over a hump. As soon as that hump was over, it was "hey, let's go see if we can do some story arcs in Steel Canyon". Because that's more fun. Imagine, if you will, a thing like an AE farm. Call it a Market Farm. You log in, you go to the Market Farm, you buy a bunch of Rikti-Os that are, due to a bug, giving you purples every time you sell them back to a vendor. You can purple out a character in an hour or so of messing with the Market Farm. Would you use it? I wouldn't. I'd play the invention system the way it is now, warts and all, so I could be progressing over time. So that every time I log in, now and for the next few months, I would be looking to see if I'd gotten a recipe, and every purchase would be a noticeable, if small, increase in my character's power. That would be a fun experience of progressing and developing. Being purpled is not as fun as getting purpled, and it's fine by me that it takes a long time. I don't find that "discouraging" any more than I'm "discouraged" when I kill my first Hellion, get 10xp, and try to figure out how many Hellions I'll have to kill to make level 50. |
While you make a very fine point, I have yet to hear people that disagree with me explain exactly how long they think it should take to "Ultimate I/O build" a character from scratch. I have placed my opinions out, and have made myself a giant target. Those who disagree with me use every tactic from taunting barb, to wall of I feel your pain text, to "you'e doing it wrong", but I have yet to see anyone with the courage to explain why the current market system works (please do not edit the rest out here) in a way that works for newcomers to the game, making it fun and encouraging. Nor have I heard anyone with the courage to say how long they think it should take to kit out a character from scratch. Although it has been fun to isten to 2-3 of the posters be like "I kitted mine out in like a few months, so everything is fine now, don't tell the Devs to change it, move along"
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Actually, there is a class of players in the cities that have a disease called altitis. It is rare, maybe less than 1% of those who play, possibly more. More characters are what keep those who Alt playing. Having each of these characters be even cooler would only enhance our altitis afflicted players experience. Since you do not suffer this malady, this probably makes no sense to you. But it is a good market for a game like City of to look for customers in. ince they have one of the best character design systems on the market, marketing to people that like to alt, wel, it might make a little sense.
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Originally Posted by SuperFerret
Ultra rare "stuff" keeps people playing because they have things to continually strive for. There's always that next IO or next badge that they want, and that keeps them playing longer.
Let me ask you this, after you pimp out your character with IO's what then? What will you do then? |
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Okay, first off, people can demonstrably do that in under a year if they really want to.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Okay, you believe this to be true. I believe that it discourages people, and that people should be able to kit out approx. one character per year in ultra rares, and I have explained why multiple times.
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I guess... I still don't quite get it. You seem to assume that a character not fully equipped with all ultra-rares is "incomplete" or something, but really, a character in all ultra-rares is no longer fun; there's no progress to be made.
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| Could you be specific in how you think people not getting this makes them want to play more, and how long it should take for a person to kit out one character in ultra rares for it to be more attractive? |
In another game I played, a friend of mine met a single person who had The Best Weapon, and top-of-the-line gear. The other 11M or so players did not have gear quite that good. Or even very close. But they were progressing, if they wanted to, so they were happy.
I play in order to advance my characters, because advancement is fun. No more advancement, no more fun, no more happy.
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Ahh, but will it be one of the last times you make disingenuous posts such as this?|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
To kitg out a charcter in 5 purple sets would require 1200 uniterrupted days of TIPing at 50. Add in 2 sets of PVPs and another 360 days, and then a few procs, etc comes to about 6 to 7 years. When I presented this figure earlier in these posts I was widely ridiculed. In fact, it is truly inefficient. We all know the only effective way to kit out a toon is to use the Market.
This will be one of the last times I respond to disingenuous posts such as this. |
You're ignoring purple drops, but if you spent that much time farming stuff, you'd get purple drops. You'd also get PvP IOs if you did a lot of PvP. In short, it won't take nearly that long, because you will get many things during that time which are either the things you want or things you can trade for them.
Imagine that you find a purple which sells for 1B. You can get it for less than 20 A-merits, because you can make >120M for a pair of A-merits, so 20 A-merits spent getting trivially saleable stuff (LotG +recharge, celerity +stealth) will get you well over 1B. Do that a few times, get a few purple drops while you're running all those tips... it adds up. If you're getting reward merits too, you can't convert them all to A-merits, so you have some to put into buying recipes with them.
In short, it doesn't take that long, or even close to that long.
This is like talking about how long it takes to get a hamburger, assuming you have to work at McDonald's until you can save enough to buy a cattle ranch so you can raise a cow to kill to get the beef.
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That's simple!|
Originally Posted by SuperFerret
Let me ask you this, after you pimp out your character with IO's what then? What will you do then?
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Complain that the game is too easy and there's no content.
=D
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Thanks!|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Worthy of repost, in entirety.
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| As pointed out after this, I may still be like "It takes too long". Yes, yes I would. I have been very clear about what price points (250 mil for purps, 500 mil for PvP I/Os) and how long it should approximately take to kit out one character really sweet (including Purps, Procs, Globals, and PvPs, about a year at 50) I think this would suit the game well, and anything too much longer than this threats with being discouraging. |
I do expect to, within a year or two, end up with one or two 50s who can farm at +4/x8 if they want to.
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| While you make a very fine point, I have yet to hear people that disagree with me explain exactly how long they think it should take to "Ultimate I/O build" a character from scratch. |
I think it should take a couple to a few months to get nicely kitted out with a good selection of set bonuses, a couple of procs, and maybe one or two individual purple enhancements, if you get lucky on drops. At that point you can pretty much steamroll any content in the game. You are the equivalent of what might, in another game, be called "raid geared".
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| I have yet to see anyone with the courage to explain why the current market system works (please do not edit the rest out here) in a way that works for newcomers to the game, making it fun and encouraging. |
My bots/traps runs at +2/x3 or so, and I can read a book while steamrolling. Woo! I AM AMAZING! That's at level 35, with some mismatched enhancements and things I didn't think through as well as I should have. I'm happy. I feel like the game is letting my character be awesome and powerful. I am also happy because I anticipate a lot more development over the next year or three.
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Well there are many different ways to play the game, and they all directly or or at least indirectly affect ones ability to kit out a toon, and when you add in the Ultra rares those differences tend to get magnified. I don't think the way anyone plays is wrong, as long as they are having fun. but by the nature of the play style some will earn faster than others. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Okay, you believe this to be true. I believe that it discourages people, and that people should be able to kit out approx. one character per year in ultra rares, and I have explained why multiple times.
Could you be specific in how you think people not getting this makes them want to play more, and how long it should take for a person to kit out one character in ultra rares for it to be more attractive? |
achieving goals is the whole point of any game. So yes to some players working towards the goal of getting ultra rare gear in part keeps them playing. Others enjoy other aspects of the game.
You ask how long it should take to get a bleeding edge ultra rare filled toon. That is very hard to answer. It depends a lot on the play style of the player, and their ability to earn both while playing and not.
Any answer I give here will be easily refuted with " that's not how I play" or " you shouldn't have to play like that" etc and I will agree with you but if your goal is to get the ultra rare gear in the least amount of time you may have to do things that you may not enjoy as much, or even some things that are down right repetitive.
If you feel that you shouldn't have to do anything more than playing the game how you want and get the ultra rare gear in the same time then I would say that is a disconnect an ask why someone that produces less should be rewarded the same?
I consider myself a top tier inf producer, I am not sure what numbers Nethergoat, or Fulmens, or other market forum regulars generate in a week, (nor do I want to know, or be inclined to really believe them if they did tell me) but I would guess I am in the same ball park.
I don't play alts often, but when I am inspired to make a new toon, I'll roll it up, run content and focus on that toon, getting them to 50 in about a month or so and that is playing ~14 hrs a week. I am lucky to have a great group to play with, and running TFs is an excellent time:xp ratio. running 3 or 4 a week and some solo time to learn my character.
In that month if I think I am going to want to kit out this toon in ultra rare gear during down time or off hours I'll run a 50 through some proven inf earning exercises (ie: farming) but I am pretty bad at that and can only do that for 45-60 minutes at a time before I have to stop. Then using the drops I won't need I exchange them on the market for ones I can use. and often I have the gear about a month after I hit 50.
Now I am an edge case, I am what one could do if you crunch the numbers and find some of the best inf:time ratio. if you play less, slower, don't enjoy crunching the numbers on the market looking for time:inf and slot:inf ratios then you'll take a lot longer, and there isn't a dam thing wrong with that.
also my ultra rare geared toons aren't all that more survivable than my lesser geared ones, but I enjoy succeeding is kitting out my toon.
also I will say casual players at best dream of ultra rare gear, once they really start working towards that goal they are no longer casual as they are "WORKING" towards a goal.
Card Carrying DeFulmenstrator--Member Crazy 88s
We burn more Influence before 8am than you make all day.
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I've been playing 4 months. I have 19 characters on one server, and I'm probably going to buy more character slots this weekend. None of those characters are over 35.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Actually, there is a class of players in the cities that have a disease called altitis. It is rare, maybe less than 1% of those who play, possibly more. More characters are what keep those who Alt playing. Having each of these characters be even cooler would only enhance our altitis afflicted players experience. Since you do not suffer this malady, this probably makes no sense to you. But it is a good market for a game like City of to look for customers in. ince they have one of the best character design systems on the market, marketing to people that like to alt, wel, it might make a little sense.
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Believe me. I know about altitis. But what I enjoy about alts is having room for progression. I had a raid tank and a raid healer in another game, and they were still progressing, which meant I could keep playing them and they contributed to my fun. Without that, they would have been slots tied up with boring characters.
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I'm lovin' it.
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Originally Posted by seebs
This is like talking about how long it takes to get a hamburger, assuming you have to work at McDonald's until you can save enough to buy a cattle ranch so you can raise a cow to kill to get the beef.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I don't think he's the right guy you should be trying to make know the difference between need vs. want and reality vs. expectations. After all, we've been trying to do that for almost 30 pages and what have we accomplished? Not much if anything at all.
Then again, I can just practice my English here writing snarky remarks that are tangential to the topic.
+1
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein