Speed Boost? Yes/No
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-05-09 10:53 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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In this particular case, given the short duration, single target nature and high effect of Speed Boost buffing, it renders the Kinetic Defenders primary and secondaries at odds on large teams. A Kinetic Controller is not faced with the same conundrum; his expected primary task on teams is to control.|
Originally Posted by NekoNeko
I'm with you so far, because Primaries are more powerful than Secondaries. Defenders buff better than they blast because buffing is their primary. And Blasters are better at blasting than Defenders because blasting is the Defender's secondary.
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It would be a little like turning all the Tanker Primary defense powers into click powers with short duration, making them at odds with their secondaries. It's purely poor gameplay and bad game design.
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Hmmm, given that Primaries are more powerful than Secondaries, how does this make sense? Or more tactfully, what in your experience makes you say this? Are you saying that the kinetics buffs synchronize better with the control sets than with blast sets? (Just trying to see where you're coming from.) Because Kinetics, like Rad, like Storm, (like blast sets) is a much superior set as a Primary than as a Secondary. |
Kinetics as a set is fairly balanced on Defenders as it for them is a matter of high risk (little defense) vs. high reward (very offensive). Controllers on the other hand, are the safest or second safest AT, and for them Kinetics is purely about reward. More reward than Defenders can hope for as Controllers can buff their pets with the Kinetics buffs affecting allies. Like Speed Boost and Fulcrum Shift.
A Kinetics Controller is in just about every situation just as able to cap damage (despite slightly lower values on FS and SP) as a Kinetics Defender. The Kinetics Controller is similarly easily able to restore maximum endurance. The Controller Speed Boost and Siphon Speed have the same exact values as the Defender versions. So as a matter of fact; Kinetics is a VASTLY more powerful secondary on Controllers than it is a primary on Defenders.
As for the second suggested "fix" (turning Speed Boost into an AoE debuff/PbAoE buff), clearly it would be much more of use for Kinetics Defenders as they have little actual defense (as opposed to Kinetics Controllers). Most importantly, not having to constantly recast SB would make the set more fun to play.
"Primaries > Secondaries" is a decent general rule. It's a shame, though, that so many of the exceptions to that rule involve Defender primaries. Speed Boost is a perfect example. There is no difference whatsoever between Controller, Corruptor, or Defender Speed Boost, except that Defenders get it 8 levels earlier.
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So all pro-SB posters are irrational because Siggy is?|
Originally Posted by ForumSniper
His post didn't really imply that, but it might as well have, since it's true.
I don't imply it. I state it flat out. You don't have to look any further than Siggy's posts in this topic for proof. |
Right.
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Gotcha. Thanks for the insight.
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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Kinetics as a set is fairly balanced on Defenders as it for them is a matter of high risk (little defense) vs. high reward (very offensive). Controllers on the other hand, are the safest or second safest AT, and for them Kinetics is purely about reward. More reward than Defenders can hope for as Controllers can buff their pets with the Kinetics buffs affecting allies. Like Speed Boost and Fulcrum Shift.
A Kinetics Controller is in just about every situation just as able to cap damage (despite slightly lower values on FS and SP) as a Kinetics Defender. The Kinetics Controller is similarly easily able to restore maximum endurance. The Controller Speed Boost and Siphon Speed have the same exact values as the Defender versions. So as a matter of fact; Kinetics is a VASTLY more powerful secondary on Controllers than it is a primary on Defenders. |
I'm hardly irrational, I just wish all Kinetics players were as good as me, either that or they should just stop playing.
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Carnies do smashing, lethal, fire, energy, negative and illustion/psionic damage. Also Psionic Blast enemies tend to have TK Blast, which is psi/smash damage, the fire shields are still helpful to an extent even when fighting pure psi enemies.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Oh yes, yes indeed. I've fought several AVs who only do psi damage, Kalinda included. Then there's missions where I've gone through the entire mission only fighting fortunata. Then there's missions facing psi clockwork, which have nothing but psi attacks. Carnie bosses too, the AV leader of the carnival of shaddows...
Do I need to go on? Psi damage may not be too common hero side, but villains face it a lot. And heroes in the 40's can encounter missions with nothing but psi damage. |
edit: boo Frosticus ;p
and...*shrug* what would you pick up instead of SB that you couldn't fit in before? I'd still take it and throw a couple Efficacy Adapters for the +hp and then a basic end mod IO.
The thing I hate about having SB and why I respec'd out of it is its secondary effect of turning teammates into braying, entitled nuisances, endlessly squealing for SB like newborn chicks fighting over their mother's vomit.
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Hehe, ya it was a rhetorical question when I asked it as I knew the answer was 'no'. It was a good setup for me to show that similar to fireshields it is very rare to find a situation where SB doesn't provide at least some benefit.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
Carnies do smashing, lethal, fire, energy, negative and illustion/psionic damage. Also Psionic Blast enemies tend to have TK Blast, which is psi/smash damage, the fire shields are still helpful to an extent even when fighting pure psi enemies.
edit: boo Frosticus ;p and...*shrug* what would you pick up instead of SB that you couldn't fit in before? I'd still take it and throw a couple Efficacy Adapters for the +hp and then a basic end mod IO. |
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Hi Gypsy,|
Originally Posted by Gypsy_of_Paradox
It's why I ask, it seems people forget Kin is more then SB. On my brutes, I'm always waiting for FS not SB. I have the 1-8 as macros, but could bind them to my numpad as well. It's more really that I want to be blasting things then buffing endlessly. I would still bring to team everything else Kin has to offer.
The question actually came up when I showed my wife my toons build. She has an Earth/Kin troller at 50 and was surprised to see it in my final build. She said I'd hate buffing the team. Granted I solo'd a lot and lvl'd on smaller teams on his road to 50. Things are less intense on paper missions as opposed to SF/TFs. It wouldn't hurt my build to leave it in honestly, I was just curious the general consensus. |
This is the way I see it. If you plan on teaming often, take SB, people will five star you if you keep them buffed and invite you to the next TF tthey run and they'll tell their friends how much a great asset to a team you are.
To be perfectly honest if I were a team leader and I invited you on a "team" as a kin I'd expect you to have SB. If you didn't take SB I would most likely one star you and pass you up for another kin with SB the next time I make a team.
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^^This.|
Originally Posted by Kioshi
Oh don't bother with that, if they're out of range, too bad for them. No need to go chasing them. I only 'chase' people out of range when someone is dying and I'm on my emp so I can cast a Heal Other+Fortitude (or AB if it's up) - that is, if it isn't like a fool scrapper going off to solo a 8-man mob alone at the other side of the map lol.
But not on my kins, it's not like SB will save anyone's life in 2 seconds. |
Don't chase people to SB them. Designate a point-man (Usually a scrapper, tank, brute) if the teammate isn't following that point-man they don't get SBed.
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hmm..I'd probably still keep a petless DS/Poison MM... I <3 them whips!
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Originally Posted by Bocus_King
Ya I'd kick a kin with no SB, just like I'd kick a mastermind with no pets. I don't get why people play certain sets when they don't take they key powers that define said set.
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Who cares what those people think? They're not paying for anything, so they shouldn't have a say. Your wife is absolutely right btw.|
Originally Posted by Gypsy_of_Paradox
So the question is, how many people would it piss off? I mostly won't take it in my final build, just wanting to get the general idea of what others think.
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My kins all have speed boost....because my kins all team with my characters, without exception. If one of my kins is in a team that doesn't also include another of my characters, chances are there are some close friends who needed her assistance.
In short, do what suits your individual playstyle best. Put SB in a secondary build you slot with SOs or something. IO the build that will best benefit that character the way YOU prefer to play it. What other people say or think is immaterial.
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A couple of macros can fix that . . . simply say that you have been annoyed so many times in the past, that if anyone complains that you have forgotten SB, they won't get it. Or nobody will get it. Whatever you want. I have macros on all my Kinetics characters ready to throw out if anyone gets whiney.|
Originally Posted by bromley
The thing I hate about having SB and why I respec'd out of it is its secondary effect of turning teammates into braying, entitled nuisances, endlessly squealing for SB like newborn chicks fighting over their mother's vomit.
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If someone doesn't want SB, I ask that they be at the bottom of the team list. That way it is easier to remember not to cast SB on them -- the ones at the end of the team list get it last anyways.
A little friendly communication can go a long way.
Yeah, casting SB on a large team can be slightly annoying, but I just do it between fights and I don't have to "take away" anything else I want to do. Binding SB to the keypad makes it easy. That small inconvenience boosts the team a huge amount, so it is worth it.
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You care what other people think because this is an MMO, you can do whatever you want and disregard what other people think, but as you've seen in this thread some people will choose not to group with you. As a stone brute I'd take a kin who /follows me and auto casts SB on me over most any other partner any day of the week. If I invite a kin to my team that doesn't have SB he better be a cool guy and play really well if he ever wants an invite from me again.| Who cares what those people think? They're not paying for anything, so they shouldn't have a say. |
Again I'm a stone brute, so SB benefits me significantly more than other people, but not taking 1 power that's probably the best buff in the whole game and costs you almost nothing seems pretty ludicrous to me. Why NOT make your team significantly more effective for almost no cost?
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So the kin gets to be your personal buffing slave. Sounds like a great job.|
Originally Posted by Durien
As a stone brute I'd take a kin who /follows me and auto casts SB on me over most any other partner any day of the week.
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| ...if he ever wants an invite from me again. |
ah yes that's clearly what I said, I certainly didn't mean that as an example to show that SB is so good that if that's all they did they'd still be more useful to me than most other AT's. I HATE it when my slaves do things like have fun and help the team in several different ways.
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Amusingly enough, I broke out my Fire/Kin controller for the first time in a long while last night because a good friend wanted to play his Stone Tanker. I remembered part of the reason why I stopped playing that Controller half way through the first mission.|
Originally Posted by Durien
ah yes that's clearly what I said, I certainly didn't mean that as an example to show that SB is so good that if that's all they did they'd still be more useful to me than most other AT's. I HATE it when my slaves do things like have fun and help the team in several different ways.
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Since my friend's movement speed suffered so abysmally when SB ran out, it was quite obvious to me when I had let it drop. And quite obvious just how short the frakking duration on the power is. SB, IMHO, is amazingly good at doing two things: 1) boosting the team's performance, and 2) making the person with the SB power feel like a buff bot. Yay? I have been on teams where it was quite obvious the team only cared if I used that one power. They didn't give a hoot about me using my Primary at all. I promptly find an excuse to leave teams like that.
I guess the point of my rambling is that SB, while good, is annoying as all hell and I wish the Devs would find a way to make it less so.
I LOVE fulcrum shift, it is also incredibly awesome, as is is the heal. It's just that SB is SO good for so many people it seems crazy to me to not take it. I've played therm for a bit and I know how annoying it is to keep all those shields up. I personally think all those buffs should be changed to like 10 minutes, sure that could lead to abuse, but i think the gain would be much higher.
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Originally Posted by Durien
I LOVE fulcrum shift, it is also incredibly awesome, as is is the heal. It's just that SB is SO good for so many people it seems crazy to me to not take it. I've played therm for a bit and I know how annoying it is to keep all those shields up. I personally think all those buffs should be changed to like 10 minutes, sure that could lead to abuse, but i think the gain would be much higher.
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Hehe, this isn't directed at you personally at all, but your post brought it to my mind: do you know when the last time my Fire/Kin was told that he did a great job controlling a spawn was? I'll answer that for you: NEVER. This, despite the fact that I have been in situations with him where his CC saved at least one teammate (and on a couple occasions the whole team). What I have heard (repeatedly) was "Awesome heals!" "SB please!" and "Ready for Fulcrum". I haven't tested it, but I've been tempted to do a second build with as few powers from the Primary as I could get away with, and never use them, but instead just spam Kinetics powers. I have a feeling that not only would I not get asked why I didn't take anything from my primary, but I'd probably be told how awesome I was. Ah well, that's a rant for another day I suppose.
More to the topic at hand: I agree with what you said about buff sets in general. I think there are quite a few powers the Devs need to examine the "fun factor" on. SB is pretty much at the top of that list, followed by any and all "shielding" powersets. Balancing to numbers is understandable, but fun HAS to come into play somewhere, now doesn't it?
Hah, that is a good point, I play mainly villains(and my stone brute who cares about SB most is villain side) so I've mainly been thinking corruptors. It's kind of sad that as far as the team is concerned fulcrum/SB outwieghs all you controls, although I'm sure part of that is that the fire holds(and a few others like grav's) are really hard to see actually doing anything(those black clouds on their faces are kinda hard to notice).
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He never said he wasn't.|
Originally Posted by Silas
100m says you're a mediocre Kin at most.
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What he said was...
I'm hardly irrational, I just wish all Kinetics players were as good as me, either that or they should just stop playing.
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Time to lock this thread.
It's devolved into a flame thread.
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Very good point. Heck, sometimes if I'm not paying attention it takes ME a second to tell if my hold hit. |
Originally Posted by Durien
Hah, that is a good point, I play mainly villains(and my stone brute who cares about SB most is villain side) so I've mainly been thinking corruptors. It's kind of sad that as far as the team is concerned fulcrum/SB outwieghs all you controls, although I'm sure part of that is that the fire holds(and a few others like grav's) are really hard to see actually doing anything(those black clouds on their faces are kinda hard to notice).
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I eventually accepted the fact that all most teams wanted me for was the /kin part, and not the fire/ part of my character. It's just an axe I like to grind every now and again.
Lisa.
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