Speed Boost? Yes/No

Steel_Shaman · 05-13-2010 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex

So no it's not a matter of power. The problem is that SB provides benefits players want up all the time, combined with a recharge time which permits that, combined with a short duration which means you're stuck constantly recasting it. If the power was supposed to be limited in some way the Recharge should have been longer (see: Fortitude, Forge). Instead it's "balanced" based on pure frustration. It's assumed that the cost of keeping the power active (that it's a PITA) balances its benefit. Instead it just irritates the heck out of the person stuck casting it, which is why you see a lot of people scrambling for excuses to avoid the power. Its great to have cast ON you, but casting it on other people is a lesson in tedium. All of this is why I said previously I hope this power is never ever used as a template on which to base future powers.

An interesting point Tex, and I can see what you're saying. I hadn't considered the "annoyance factor" of Speed Boost when I made my earlier post. That being said, if SB were to be changed to NOT be so horrendously irritating for the user (using our powers is supposed to be fun, after all), would that justify a nerf? Perhaps. It's all hypothetical anyway, since I doubt the devs will be making any changes to it any time soon. The amount of outcry would be more than they probably want to deal with.

Eiko-chan · 05-13-2010 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex

Instead [Speed Boost is] "balanced" based on pure frustration. It's assumed that the cost of keeping the power active (that it's a PITA) balances its benefit. Instead it just irritates the heck out of the person stuck casting it, which is why you see a lot of people scrambling for excuses to avoid the power.

Sounds like perfect Jackian thinking. Which means it's a very plausible explanation.

tanstaafl · 05-13-2010 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eiko-chan

I don't feel bad. Your criticism doesn't really hurt me.

You're welcome to want, use, and have SB. I respect that. The issue here is that the pro-SB lobby does not respect those that would prefer to be, do, and have without SB.

There have been a lot of posts in this thread from people who like/use SB (pro SB) who have also said, 'your character, do what you will'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma

I've yet to find a single time in the game where speed boost really decided the fight. And I can easily understand someone not taking it. Or respecing out of it. Especially after 20+ levels of dealing with people who yell at you for not keeping it up 100% of the time.

While many buffs can save a team, such as resistance/defense shields or regen buffs, rarely will a recharge buff be vital, and rarer still is a recovery buff vital I find.

Recharge buffs sure help decide the fight more than any other buff when I'm on a dom.

I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.

Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.

So sad to be ending ):

StratoNexus · 05-13-2010 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex

Instead it's "balanced" based on pure frustration. It's assumed that the cost of keeping the power active (that it's a PITA) balances its benefit.

The fact that you have to use a power you choose is not a bad thing. Like Blaze. Like Firebreath. Like summoning MM pets.

I have to keep using Blaze in order to keep damaging enemies. I must drop Freezing Rain every 25 seconds or so in order to keep debuffing enemies. I constantly keep reapplying Focus to an enemy in order to juggle and damage them. I must repeatedly use Gravity Distortion to lock down mobs (and for bosses I usually have to keep two stacked). I have to Fulcrum Shift every other spawn (or every three spawns). Most of those things take as much or more time than applying Speed Boost.

I keep CM applied to my allies so they can't get mezzed. I keep Fort on my allies so they kill faster and die slower. I use Tesla Cage to lock down a pesky enemy.

I do not want to log in, push one button, and then spend the rest of my night just moving around while enemies auto-die and allies are auto-buffed. I want to do stuff and push lots of buttons. Some of those buttons will activate attacks. Some will activate controls. Some will activate debuffs. And, yes, some will even activate buffs. I'd rather ID and O2 Boost be two minutes, because one minute is harsh. But I like Speed Boost at the two minute timer.

Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

Madam_Enigma · 05-13-2010 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex

Its great to have cast ON you, but casting it on other people is a lesson in tedium. All of this is why I said previously I hope this power is never ever used as a template on which to base future powers.

I, and others have already mentioned times and reasons why it's NOT great to have cast on you.

"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton

Madam Enigma's History

Madam_Enigma · 05-13-2010 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PumBumbler

You should be neg repped for being a Healing Arrow denier. After all, it worked when Manti shot Statesman. Um then again, it was kinda the long way around to healing.

No, the arrow killed Statesman. Manticore then got the team's empath to try bringing Statesman back to life.

"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton

Madam Enigma's History

Oedipus_Tex · 05-14-2010 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma

I, and others have already mentioned times and reasons why it's NOT great to have cast on you.

Yes but you are wrong. :P

Just kidding. But I'm not sure what this comment has to do with my point.

Capa_Devans · 05-14-2010 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman

So should the Devs look into whacking SB around with the nerf bat for a bit? I personally believe the answer is yes. I dont know of a single other power in the game that will get someone insta-kicked for not having, or has generated this much hate on the boards at the merest mention of the heresy of not taking it in one's build.

Like this?

SAVE CoX info:
Titan Network efforts
Saving CoX events/FB info

PumBumbler · 05-14-2010 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma

No, the arrow killed Statesman. Manticore then got the team's empath to try bringing Statesman back to life.

Whoooooosh!

rsclark · 05-14-2010 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma

I, and others have already mentioned times and reasons why it's NOT great to have cast on you.

Mention it all you want, but it doesn't make what you're saying less ridiculous.

Madam_Enigma · 05-14-2010 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsclark

Mention it all you want, but it doesn't make what you're saying less ridiculous.

Oh yes, because it is so ridiculous to think someone can build a character which doesn't benefit from speed boost. Just as it's ridiculous to think someone might have more problems with it then without it. Because that team mate who's constantly getting hung up on the scenery is contributing so much to the team 2 rooms away.

"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton

Madam Enigma's History

Adeon Hawkwood · 05-14-2010 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex

First of all Speed Boost is not the only power that is considered a near must-have. We don't get discussions like this about Insulation Shield because there's pretty much unanimous agreement that skipping it is a mistake.

The second part of the problem isn't so much that Speed Boost is overpowered. It's the combo of Great Buff + Fast Recharging + Short Duration that makes it such a sore topic. The power just absolutely sucks to use, because it goads you to bot it endlessly. This is the exact same thing that would happen if Insulation Shield were on a 2 minute timer instead of a 4 minute timer.

So no it's not a matter of power. The problem is that SB provides benefits players want up all the time, combined with a recharge time which permits that, combined with a short duration which means you're stuck constantly recasting it. If the power was supposed to be limited in some way the Recharge should have been longer (see: Fortitude, Forge). Instead it's "balanced" based on pure frustration. It's assumed that the cost of keeping the power active (that it's a PITA) balances its benefit. Instead it just irritates the heck out of the person stuck casting it, which is why you see a lot of people scrambling for excuses to avoid the power. Its great to have cast ON you, but casting it on other people is a lesson in tedium. All of this is why I said previously I hope this power is never ever used as a template on which to base future powers.

I completely agree, and to be honest I think the same applies to the various shield powers as well. From a balance point of view balancing them around frustration and inconvenience is crazy. The design should be done so that either they are balanced with a 100% up time or they don't have 100% uptime. Personally I'd advocate either changing them into a PBAoE power (that has a reduced or non-existant effect on the caster) while keeping the current recharge and duration or keep the current setup and increase the duration to 30minutes. The main downside is that for both cases some method of not-accepting the buff would be almost required due to the potential for griefing.

If making either of these changes means that the powers need to be nerfed than as far as I'm concerned they need to be nerfed now. If the only thing balancing a power is frustration then it isn't really balanced, you're just hoping people can't be bothered to use it.

Fiery-Enforcer · 05-14-2010 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma

Oh yes, because it is so ridiculous to think someone can build a character which doesn't benefit from speed boost.

The thing is, that it is ridiculous because every character, yes EVERY character will benefit from Speed Boost in some way. Unless you think having your powers recharge faster isn't a benefit.

[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]

Madam_Enigma · 05-14-2010 12:34 PM

How is it beneficial to have powers that already recharge so fast you have eight or more different attack chains possible at any given moment recharging faster still? There comes a point when more recharge isn't helping, it's just wasted. If a debuff power that can't self stack, and has a 30 second duration already charges fast enough to be perma then it is wasteful to have the power recharging in 15 seconds for example. When you always have a good attack up already, more recharge doesn't help as much as you might think. When the difference between having Speed Boost on you, and not is something like 0.05 seconds worth of recharge time at most, it's not as helpful as you might think.

Or do you think that tier nine defense powers and nukes which drain all your endurance are really "every spawn" powers? Ok, the nukes maybe, but you had dang well better have an endless supply of catch breaths. People who think the only good attack chain involves Headsplitter twelve times in a row with no delay... Well they already build accordingly to pull it off.

And that's just the +recharge. The run speed component can outweigh the rest in usefulness at times. If the buff had a vastly reduced runspeed componant it would be much better.

Mind you, I never said that speed boost isn't useful. It is, BUT it isn't a godly buff everyone needs 24/7. And this is what I argue against. People who claim everyone needs speed boost 24/7, and that any kin without it is useless. That is what I'm arguing against.

"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton

Madam Enigma's History

SpittingTrashcan · 05-14-2010 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma

How is it beneficial to have powers that already recharge so fast you have eight or more different attack chains possible at any given moment recharging faster still? There comes a point when more recharge isn't helping, it's just wasted.

Not all attacks are created equal. Higher recharge lets you chain your better attacks and ignore your weaker ones. It lets you chain your AoE attacks and ignore your ST attacks.

There is a theoretical limit to the usefulness of recharge, but it's generally far, far higher than anyone can achieve on their own - although they do try. In the vast majority of situations, increased recharge and increased recovery translate directly to increased damage output.

Let me put it this way. If you are a Kinetics character, and you are on a team, and you do not have or do not cast SB, then you are robbing yourself of the increased damage output and reward rate that SB provides. If that is a price you are willing to pay to avoid using the power, or one you will never have to pay (because you don't team), then don't take SB. This is a reasonable stance: for a lot of people, SB is a sacrifice of enjoyment for increased rewards.

@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs

MaestroMavius · 05-14-2010 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer

The thing is, that it is ridiculous because every character, yes EVERY character will benefit from Speed Boost in some way. Unless you think having your powers recharge faster isn't a benefit.

This line of thinking is so flawed logically it hurts my head.
It's like your saying that every single person playing should
take Stamina or they're morons.
Because, who doesn't benefit from more endurance?

>_>

<_<

Yes, it is a great buff. Yes, it can be annoying to recast constantly.
NO, it is not the 'end all be all' power you guys seem to want it to be.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that players build individually, according to their;
Concept
Playstyle
Comfort level
Et al.

It's like calling every race driver a 'Terrible racer' because they don't hit the nitro button every mile...

Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!

Madam_Enigma · 05-14-2010 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan

Not all attacks are created equal. Higher recharge lets you chain your better attacks and ignore your weaker ones. It lets you chain your AoE attacks and ignore your ST attacks.

There is a theoretical limit to the usefulness of recharge, but it's generally far, far higher than anyone can achieve on their own - although they do try. In the vast majority of situations, increased recharge and increased recovery translate directly to increased damage output.

Let me put it this way. If you are a Kinetics character, and you are on a team, and you do not have or do not cast SB, then you are robbing yourself of the increased damage output and reward rate that SB provides. If that is a price you are willing to pay to avoid using the power, or one you will never have to pay (because you don't team), then don't take SB.

Haven't played a claw scrapper yet have you? The majority of claw attacks all do around the same damage. Only Focus and Eviscerate, and spin do more. But if your throwing in Eviscerate into an attack chain of only two powers, your lowering your dps. And spin is wasteful on only one foe. If you throw in the other attacks, your finally doing great dps.

Quote:

This is a reasonable stance: for a lot of people, SB is a sacrifice of enjoyment for increased rewards.

If your playing a video game, your doing it for enjoyment. Sacrificing enjoyment thus is counter productive.

"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton

Madam Enigma's History

Durien · 05-14-2010 01:02 PM

I probably wouldn't boot you from the team after I found out, but I would be looking for another kin to fill the next open spot. Kin is a great set and all, and I like playing with fun people who can play their class well more than I care about speed boost. But assuming nothing about your personality or skill level I invite kins for speed boost, and I'd be pretty dissapointed if they didn't have it. As a note I play stone/stone brute so I benefit HUGELY from speed boost.

Oedipus_Tex · 05-14-2010 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma

How is it beneficial to have powers that already recharge so fast you have eight or more different attack chains possible at any given moment recharging faster still?

Because this isn't about "attack chains." Attack chains exist as a limitation of recharge. If recharge didn't exist you wouldn't have "attack chains" you'd just spam your one best power as much as possible.

+Recharge doesn't just boost attacks, it boosts Aim, Build Up, Power Boost, etc. You can't "chain" these powers but +Speed will make them recycle much faster. This also happens to all Control AoEs, all nukes, and all recharge-intensive buffs and debuffs. Ultimately there are very, very few characters who don't benefit significantly from a +50% Recharge boost.

Hell_Jumper · 05-14-2010 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gypsy_of_Paradox

Just to reinform everyone, I know what recharge does. I know what SB does, in fact I know what most sets do w/o looking it up.

The question was a question of personal opinion on the power. Not "teach me what this does"

@Kioshi
Sorry my Doms are all perma'd w/o help, so I don't personally see most of your argument as truely valid. IMO those doms need to grind and get perma'd so they don't need a kin.

Came to this post late and did not read all the replies, I just wanted to vote "YES".

I have about 6 different Kins 3 on each side and I have SB on all of them, I guess since starting out as an original Stoner Tank and realized what SB does (I also have 4 Stoners now) I decided to make several Kin builds.

Anyway I dont consider myself a Buffbot what I do is hit everyone up before a fight and then I do my thing kiling left and right and then buff people near me always starting with the Tanks. if your out of range... oh well your out of range.

I dont think and never thought that it took away from my play (killing) time.

But its your toon so build it as you like

Durien · 05-14-2010 01:11 PM

as a note while I will love you forever for SBing my slow butt, I will also love you forever for fulcrum shift, I don't particularly care about how fast/endurance efficient I am if everything drops in a few seconds from you and another balster/corr annhialate everything in seconds from fulcrum shifted AOE's.

Madam_Enigma · 05-14-2010 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex

Because this isn't about "attack chains." Attack chains exist as a limitation of recharge. If recharge didn't exist you wouldn't have "attack chains" you'd just spam your one best power as much as possible.

+Recharge doesn't just boost attacks, it boosts Aim, Build Up, Power Boost, etc. You can't "chain" these powers but +Speed will make them recycle much faster. This also happens to all Control AoEs, all nukes, and all recharge-intensive buffs and debuffs. Ultimately there are very, very few characters who don't benefit significantly from a +50% Recharge boost.

Uhm, with Madam Enigma my recharge on attacks is such that... I have 8 or more attack chains possible at any given moment because all but one attack is recharged. And I spam attacks. As such, her attack chain is typically "What do I feel like attacking with next". Get enough recharge slotting and attacks, and this is true of pretty much everything. And once you hit that point, more recharge is rather pointless.

I know with my archery blaster too much recharge boosting actually hurts my attack chain periodically. Why? Because nothing is charged for a few seconds. And the powers that character has that would REALLY benefit from +recharge, one I don't use often cause it's cumbersome in battle (rain of arrows), and the other sucks for mid battle use since it's interuptable.

"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton

Madam Enigma's History

Fiery-Enforcer · 05-14-2010 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaestroMavius

This line of thinking is so flawed logically it hurts my head.

Now I never said anywhere that Speed Boost is needed or needs to be up at all times or that I would kick said Kin from a team because they don't have it. All I'm saying is that everyone benefits from a recharge buff which Speed Boost provides and if you don't think that's true, then I'm sorry, you're wrong.

[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]

MaestroMavius · 05-14-2010 01:50 PM

Oh, well. Can't argue with that.

Like I've said. I have SB on my dual build. But on the rare occasion I don't feel like running all over the map to switch back to my team build I shouldn't be kicked because of it's absence.
Not when I bring so much other goodies to the party.

Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!

Oedipus_Tex · 05-14-2010 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma

Uhm, with Madam Enigma my recharge on attacks is such that... I have 8 or more attack chains possible at any given moment because all but one attack is recharged. And I spam attacks. As such, her attack chain is typically "What do I feel like attacking with next". Get enough recharge slotting and attacks, and this is true of pretty much everything. And once you hit that point, more recharge is rather pointless.

I know with my archery blaster too much recharge boosting actually hurts my attack chain periodically. Why? Because nothing is charged for a few seconds. And the powers that character has that would REALLY benefit from +recharge, one I don't use often cause it's cumbersome in battle (rain of arrows), and the other sucks for mid battle use since it's interuptable.

Unless your "attack chain" is Build + Aim + Rain of Arrows, Archery benefits from extra recharge. Maybe you feel that power is "cumbersome" but you are in the minority.