Speed Boost? Yes/No
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-05-09 10:53 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Speed boost != Stamina. For someone to bring up flaws of logic and use such a poor analogy boggles the mind.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
This line of thinking is so flawed logically it hurts my head.
It's like your saying that every single person playing should take Stamina or they're morons. Because, who doesn't benefit from more endurance? >_> <_< Yes, it is a great buff. Yes, it can be annoying to recast constantly. NO, it is not the 'end all be all' power you guys seem to want it to be. Why is it so hard for people to accept that players build individually, according to their; Concept Playstyle Comfort level Et al. It's like calling every race driver a 'Terrible racer' because they don't hit the nitro button every mile... |
People arguing against the merits of +recharge and +end for the teammates are really just complaining that they don't like the +run speed aspect of it.
People who are complaining about the short duration of the boost are complaining about the tediousness of having to buff 'all the time'.
Bottom line is that some people don't like SB, but a large portion of the people like it and find utility in all of its aspects as well. If you don't like it you don't have to take it, and asking someone not to buff you with it is your right as well. Just remember that most people will raise an eyebrow because of it.
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That was the first thing I thought of when I read that post.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Only for 100 levels. Did you know that Follow Up stacks with itself?
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The second thing I though of was - How much benefit does stacked Follow Up give you when you are at the damage cap?
I'm in the Speed Boost gud crowd though, so don't read too much into that.
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Not a lot, of course. In that situation, you charge the nearest group of enemies and bounce on Spin for 10x damage. |
Originally Posted by Jaelen
That was the first thing I thought of when I read that post.
The second thing I though of was - How much benefit does stacked Follow Up give you when you are at the damage cap? I'm in the Speed Boost gud crowd though, so don't read too much into that. |
@SPTrashcan
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No, I have been saying that the +recharge and +recovery are not always actually helpful. Half my characters have no need for either. Once your character can fight for hours non-stop without speed boost, the +recovery from it is pointless for example. And fighting non-stop without running out of endurance is something many build for. Once someone has enough recharge that even with spamming attacks they always have 4 or 5 ready to go at moments notice, more +recharge isn't really needed either.
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Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Speed boost != Stamina. For someone to bring up flaws of logic and use such a poor analogy boggles the mind.
People arguing against the merits of +recharge and +end for the teammates are really just complaining that they don't like the +run speed aspect of it. People who are complaining about the short duration of the boost are complaining about the tediousness of having to buff 'all the time'. Bottom line is that some people don't like SB, but a large portion of the people like it and find utility in all of its aspects as well. If you don't like it you don't have to take it, and asking someone not to buff you with it is your right as well. Just remember that most people will raise an eyebrow because of it. |
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Oh really, then pray tell... How much more dps do you think I could get with Speed Boost on Madam Enigma? I already have powers that recharge so fast that the only ones that aren't up almost immediately are Spin, Shockwave, and Eviscerate. And since the only power from Claws I didn't take was confront, how much more recharge do I need to maximize DPS? Please tell me, because I'm not sure what else I need to do. I already can pick pretty much any power to attack, and it's recharged by the time the next power finishes animating. If it's not, it'll be recharged by the time the third attack is done.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Only for 100 levels. Did you know that Follow Up stacks with itself?
Edited to add: You seem to be unaware of the importance of damage per animation time. Once you have powers cycling faster than you can cast them, the only improvement possible to damage per time is by choosing to use the attacks that do the most damage in the least animation time. +Recharge allows you to cycle these attacks faster. They are your "best" attacks, not the ones that do the most damage up front. So for example, from Archery, Ranged Shot deals 2.76 scale damage and takes 4.67 seconds to cast, but Blazing Arrow deals 2.585 scale damage and takes just 1.83 seconds to cast (ignoring certain other factors). If both attacks recharged instantly, you'd only be dealing 0.59 scale damage per second by firing nothing but Ranged Shots, but you'd be doing 1.41 scale damage per second firing nothing but Blazing Arrows. Similarly, for Claws, Swipe does 0.798 scale damage in 0.83 seconds, while Focus deals 1.46 scale damage in 1.17 seconds. Which is the better attack? |
I throw in Eviscerate because I like the animation and the burst damage. I throw in Swipe now and then cause the animation is sexy. I toss in Strike or Slash interchangeably. If I can't reach the enemy, I cycle Focus, Shockwave, and Laser Beam Eyes for ranged attacks. Sometimes I throw in a LBE just for coolness factor. And if I'm running a lot of toggles, I cycle out the higher end cost attacks from my chain. If I don't feel like doing that, I hit Conserve Power once at 1/4 endurance and can gain endurance back while spamming attacks will nilly.
Surely I'm doing something wrong that requires Speed Boost to fix. Can you explain what it is?
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
First, nobody is saying that you need Speed Boost to fix anything. What we're saying is that you will benefit from it, plain and simple, there's no denying that. If you don't agree, I really don't know what to say.
You may not notice it on something with quick recharging ST attacks like Claws, I mean my Claws Brute has an attack chain of Follow Up + Gloom + Focus. I won't get much benefit for my ST chain, but it brings my AoE's up quicker. Now, I'm not sure what secondary you are, but you do know recharge helps those powers too? In my case, I'm Dark Armor. More recharge brings Dark Regeneration up quicker which in case allows me to take more damage. You may be WP or something else that doesn't benefit because all of your defensive powers are toggles.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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Using that same logic (no I dont do this, but the same logic applies)...why is it so hard for people to accept someone elses concept/playstyle/comfort level/ect for who they team with?|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
This line of thinking is so flawed logically it hurts my head.
It's like your saying that every single person playing should take Stamina or they're morons. Because, who doesn't benefit from more endurance? >_> <_< Yes, it is a great buff. Yes, it can be annoying to recast constantly. NO, it is not the 'end all be all' power you guys seem to want it to be. Why is it so hard for people to accept that players build individually, according to their; Concept Playstyle Comfort level Et al. It's like calling every race driver a 'Terrible racer' because they don't hit the nitro button every mile... |
When they get a KIN, they want SB. When they don't get it, you ruin their concept/playstyle/comfort level/ect of how a team should be, when running with a KIN.
Just saying. It's a two way streak.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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If all you're doing is spamming your attack chain then you should consider doing a couple of more things to help the team. Besides, even things like Eye of the Magus and other accolades are not available instantly no matter how much recharge you have natively. Veteran Teleport, Mission Teleport are other powers with extremely long recharge timers that benefit from +recharge powers such as Speed Boost.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
No, I have been saying that the +recharge and +recovery are not always actually helpful. Half my characters have no need for either. Once your character can fight for hours non-stop without speed boost, the +recovery from it is pointless for example. And fighting non-stop without running out of endurance is something many build for. Once someone has enough recharge that even with spamming attacks they always have 4 or 5 ready to go at moments notice, more +recharge isn't really needed either.
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You said it right there. Unless Conserve Power is perma, you will see a benefit from Speed Boost. No one said you're doing it wrong, but to deny that you will see _any_ benefit from having +recharge is false.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
And if I'm running a lot of toggles, I cycle out the higher end cost attacks from my chain. If I don't feel like doing that, I hit Conserve Power once at 1/4 endurance and can gain endurance back while spamming attacks will nilly.
Surely I'm doing something wrong that requires Speed Boost to fix. Can you explain what it is? |
Even moving from mob to mob with +run speed will up your mobs defeated per minute, presuming you can control your toon's movement in tighter spots.
This argument seems to be going in circles. On the one hand, we have people pointing out that Speed Boost provides some useful buffs. And this is true - it does have useful properties. It also provides a huge boost in movement speed, which can be problematic for characters who aren't Stone Armor. On the other hand, we have a group of people pointing out a number of features that make the power "not fun" for them, either to be the person casting it, or the person being hit with it. For these people, the "not fun" aspect outweighs any benefits the power provides. This is a game. It is played for fun. If a player finds something in a game to be "not fun," why do they have to provide any more justification than that?
I turn on raptor pack if I'm being buffed by speedboost on a map where the run speed presents issues like running into a pack of +4's. Flight at the speed limit is very slow.
Not many maps present that problem other than some of the CoT maps where you change elevations a lot and falling down from one ledge often means being square in the middle of another spawn.
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I think it's more the others saying you're denying them more fun, when they invite the KIN to the team expecting Speed Boost. Which is a perfectly acceptable thing to be expecting if the KIN doesn't say it in advance.
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Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
This argument seems to be going in circles. On the one hand, we have people pointing out that Speed Boost provides some useful buffs. And this is true - it does have useful properties. It also provides a huge boost in movement speed, which can be problematic for characters who aren't Stone Armor. On the other hand, we have a group of people pointing out a number of features that make the power "not fun" for them, either to be the person casting it, or the person being hit with it. For these people, the "not fun" aspect outweighs any benefits the power provides. This is a game. It is played for fun. If a player finds something in a game to be "not fun," why do they have to provide any more justification than that?
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Madam_Enigma, I agree with you that there are some characters/builds for whom SB will be of very limited benefit. But the question posed by the OP was whether or not to skip SB, not whether or not SB is always the best thing ever in every circumstance.
It's still a goddamned fantastic buff and shouldn't be skipped. Pointing out fringe cases where it won't do much or where people won't want it doesn't mean it's not.
People who say Kins without SB are useless are idiots. People who kick Kins for not having SB or maintaining 100% uptime with SB are idiots. Idiots are not a good reason to skip SB 
I get that you're not anti-SB so much as anti-foaming-at-the-mouth pro-SB idiots, but it's misleading and inaccurate to keep bringing up the extremely fringe cases where SB will be of limited benefit or to argue that it will even be of zero benefit.
If you've got enough recharge that you're never waiting on a power to recharge, then as SpittingTrashcan says, you can then use only your highest DPA attacks. Even if being able to chain nothing but your highest DPA attacks doesn't make you harder than diamonds because you don't care about efficiency, it's not accurate to argue that that's not an improvement.
Not caring about a benefit doesn't mean it's not there.
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Secondary of Super Reflexes, and no my current build doesn't have Elude. Nor would having elude up more often have mattered anyway. I use it as a panic button or for AV fights. And it's up more then often enough for that.
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Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
First, nobody is saying that you need Speed Boost to fix anything. What we're saying is that you will benefit from it, plain and simple, there's no denying that. If you don't agree, I really don't know what to say.
You may not notice it on something with quick recharging ST attacks like Claws, I mean my Claws Brute has an attack chain of Follow Up + Gloom + Focus. I won't get much benefit for my ST chain, but it brings my AoE's up quicker. Now, I'm not sure what secondary you are, but you do know recharge helps those powers too? In my case, I'm Dark Armor. More recharge brings Dark Regeneration up quicker which in case allows me to take more damage. You may be WP or something else that doesn't benefit because all of your defensive powers are toggles. |
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Those accolades you mentioned, don't have them. Vet teleport, don't have it. Mission Teleport, don't have it. And if my scrapper has anything to do to aid the team besides spamming my infinately mutable attack chain, that's news to me. Powers would include... attacks, defenses, more defenses, more attacks, a few self utility powers, and Fitness pool.|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
If all you're doing is spamming your attack chain then you should consider doing a couple of more things to help the team. Besides, even things like Eye of the Magus and other accolades are not available instantly no matter how much recharge you have natively. Veteran Teleport, Mission Teleport are other powers with extremely long recharge timers that benefit from +recharge powers such as Speed Boost.
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Unless you expect blasters and scrappers to be the team healer? And what is my attack chain? Generally what ever I feel like hitting next, cause it's all recharged.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Yes, because not using Evisc is going to hurt my attack chain so much. Because the ability to overwhelm an EB's regen with just Striike, Slash, Swipe, and Follow Up is gimping myself.|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
You said it right there. Unless Conserve Power is perma, you will see a benefit from Speed Boost. No one said you're doing it wrong, but to deny that you will see _any_ benefit from having +recharge is false.
Even moving from mob to mob with +run speed will up your mobs defeated per minute, presuming you can control your toon's movement in tighter spots. |
Any time I start to get low on endurance, I have two options. Cut out the high end cost attacks (which actually tends to improve my dps anyway) or hit conserve power. But if you insist on hitting Madam Enigma with speed boost even when I asked you not to, you've put me at the run speed cap, given very little benefit recharge wise, and 'solved' the endurance issues that weren't there. I have conserve power as an endurance issue fix already. If I need more end recovery for the moment, I can just hit it.
And that's only really a problem if I felt the need to be running around with 40% defense instead of 30% defense. Usually 30% defense is more then enough.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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The only way it could be an acceptable expectation is if Speed Boost were a tier one ability and the hero in question was a controller. Otherwise, expecting someone else to have built their character to your desires isn't so much acceptable as it is unabashedly foolish.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I think it's more the others saying you're denying them more fun, when they invite the KIN to the team expecting Speed Boost. Which is a perfectly acceptable thing to be expecting if the KIN doesn't say it in advance.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Expecting someone to have one of the core powers from their powersets is not the same as expecting someone to "build a character to your desires".|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
The only way it could be an acceptable expectation is if Speed Boost were a tier one ability and the hero in question was a controller. Otherwise, expecting someone else to have built their character to your desires isn't so much acceptable as it is unabashedly foolish.
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When I invite a Forcefielder to my team, I don't expect them to build exactly to my desires, but I expect them to have the force fields.
When I invite a Blaster or Scrapper to my team I don't expect them to build to my desires, but I do expect them to kill stuff.
When I invite a Kin to my team, I don't expect them to build to my desires. I do expect them to have the core Kinetic powers, (assuming appropriate level), namely Speed Boost, Fulcrum Shift and Transference.
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Yes, it is. The game doesn't define any "core powers" - such powers are thus definitively your own expectations of what someone with a given powerset should take.
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Originally Posted by Silas
Expecting someone to have one of the core powers from their powersets is not the same as expecting someone to "build a character to your desires".
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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You mean this? |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Surely I'm doing something wrong that requires Speed Boost to fix. Can you explain what it is?
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Actually, I find that having to use blue insperations during EB fights is pretty standard.
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Arguing that it provides no benefit at all, however - because you have other options, even if they aren't the most reliable or efficient ones - is disingenuous.
Clearly the benefits Speed Boost provides are of no value to you personally, and that's fine. Other players are still weighing the benefits, which they value, against all the annoyances that come with the power.
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This I've been saying over and over. But people like SiGGy would have you think that Speed Boost is such a must have power your gimped without it in your build, or cast on you if not a kin.|
Originally Posted by Selina_H
Granted, Speed Boost isn't strictly necessary - in the vast majority of cases, it's not going to make the difference between a win and a team wipe. And it's certainly possible to build a character for whom SB is of limited benefit.
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| Arguing that it provides no benefit at all, however - because you have other options, even if they aren't the most reliable or efficient ones - is disingenuous. |
EDIT: And the post of mine you linked to, it's regarding soloing with a soldier of arachnos. Because one person was claiming that they are underpowered in part due to needing to eat a blue insp during EB fights or protracted battles.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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The issue I have is with your phrasing, per this post:|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
This is not what I've said. Not ever.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
No, I have been saying that the +recharge and +recovery are not always actually helpful. Half my characters have no need for either. Once your character can fight for hours non-stop without speed boost, the +recovery from it is pointless for example.
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Let me note here, lest I sound overly critical, that I think you absolutely *should* play in whatever manner you find most enjoyable. Some players enjoy optimizing their attack chains, to be able to spam their best, most efficient attacks as often as possible. Some players enjoy cranking up the difficulty to +4/x8. Some players enjoy going after AVs. In my experience, most players have neither a perfectly optimized solo attack chain nor enough extra recovery for protracted battles; they see the opportunity to do so, via Speed Boost, as much win.
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Or rather, you could read it as it's written and realize I said HALF of my characters are built so it provides no real benefit. I've stated time and again it is useful BUT you can build a character so they don't need the boosts. In which case forcing it upon someone doesn't improve their character's performance. It just gives potential control problems.|
Originally Posted by Selina_H
The issue I have is with your phrasing, per this post:
This makes it sound as though you are unable to derive any benefit from the increases to recharge and recovery. In fact, you could benefit considerably, but choose not to do so because you don't wish to change your preferred playstyle. Let me note here, lest I sound overly critical, that I think you absolutely *should* play in whatever manner you find most enjoyable. Some players enjoy optimizing their attack chains, to be able to spam their best, most efficient attacks as often as possible. Some players enjoy cranking up the difficulty to +4/x8. Some players enjoy going after AVs. In my experience, most players have neither a perfectly optimized solo attack chain nor enough extra recovery for protracted battles; they see the opportunity to do so, via Speed Boost, as much win. |
People like SiGGy are saying it's a required buff and everyone always needs it, so if a kin doesn't have speed boost they get yelled at then booted. People with this view will use Speed Boost on someone who asks not to be buffed with it, because they think they know what your character needs more then you do.
I say it's USEFUL but the runspeed component can outweigh the rest. Especially if you build a character so they are self sufficient.
A common claim is "If your not speed boosted, you can't keep up with the team". Bull, you can build characters which move that fast without any toggles on. In actuality, some people I've noticed have more trouble keeping up with speed boost. Those walls and torches can slow someone down if their constantly getting stuck. Or missing the turn, or running past the enemy and into a second (or third) group of enemies.
Another common claim is that everyone can use more +recharge to make a better attack chain. Bull, you can build characters who will get minimal benefit from the +recharge, at best.
Another common claim is that everyone needs the +recovery. Bull, you can (and IMO should) build so that you don't need any outside help for endurance recovery in 90% of the game's content.
Characters that benefit from SB can really benefit. My DM/DA scrapper for example loves speed boost. Always nice to have a recovery rate that's high enough you can actually run your toggles. So does my ice/mace tank. My sonic/sonic defender really loves speed boost. If I'm running all my toggles my sonic/sonic defender's recovery rate is currently lower then endurance usage.
My masterminds on the other hand tend to be rather ambivalent about speed boost. Yeah sure it'll get the pet summons to recharge faster. But in all honesty they usually don't need to be recharged faster. And the debuffs for my masterminds tend to need very little recharge to be perma. Sometimes none. Several scrappers also don't need more recharge or recovery. And I've got 4 characters who flat out don't need more run speed. They already get into trouble due to passive run speed. they really don't need to be at the run speed cap in missions.
In a nut shell, here is what I've been trying to convey:
Speed boost is useful, can be helpful, but is not by any means a must have power. And even if you do take it, there are situations where speed boost is not recommended to use.
That's bolded to call attention to it. Several people are trying to say that anyone who doesn't take speed boost is gimped, and those who don't want it are gimping themselves. And that's not true.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I definitely agree with the bold, but I think that +recharge claim is a weak example of why speed boost is so awesome. Everyone can benefit from +recharge. Always. If you're high enough level for a full attack chain (in most cases) you've also picked up a self heal, self buff, nuke, god-mode, high recharge pet, high recharge debuffs (of which there are a ton), domination, hasten, etc. So many powers have a high recharge as their draw back that virtually everyone will benefit from it.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Another common claim is that everyone can use more +recharge to make a better attack chain. Bull, you can build characters who will get minimal benefit from the +recharge, at best.
Speed boost is useful, can be helpful, but is not by any means a must have power. And even if you do take it, there are situations where speed boost is not recommended to use. |
Now if someone has a full attack chain with their best attacks, nothing with high recharge, plenty of endurance, and a travel power they're comfortable with in doors (and the endurance for that), AND the enemies don't have endurance drain or -recharge effects then yeah it's useless. That's so rarely the case though. Depending on how much of the above is true, it will range for a nice little buff to a game/pace changing extreme buff.
Honestly the fact that some people can't handle fast run speeds in caves is just hilarious to me. I mean if they have a weak machine and they find themselves jerking into walls and corners, then I understand. If they just can't move that fast ... well I guess that's part of why they play MMOs and not racing games. I've never had a problem with it though, even running 90 mph.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Edited to add: You seem to be unaware of the importance of damage per animation time. Once you have powers cycling faster than you can cast them, the only improvement possible to damage per time is by choosing to use the attacks that do the most damage in the least animation time. +Recharge allows you to cycle these attacks faster. They are your "best" attacks, not the ones that do the most damage up front. So for example, from Archery, Ranged Shot deals 2.76 scale damage and takes 4.67 seconds to cast, but Blazing Arrow deals 2.585 scale damage and takes just 1.83 seconds to cast (ignoring certain other factors). If both attacks recharged instantly, you'd only be dealing 0.59 scale damage per second by firing nothing but Ranged Shots, but you'd be doing 1.41 scale damage per second firing nothing but Blazing Arrows.
Similarly, for Claws, Swipe does 0.798 scale damage in 0.83 seconds, while Focus deals 1.46 scale damage in 1.17 seconds. Which is the better attack?
@SPTrashcan
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