Speed Boost? Yes/No
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-05-09 10:53 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
No, a good kin knows WHEN to use speed boost. I can think of several times when a thermal, cold, or sonic shouldn't use the buffs. For example, say I'm playing Blazing Sleet (an ice blast/thermal corrupter). If we're fighting an enemy group that only does psi damage, I may as well not bother with the shields. They aren't gonna help anyway.|
Originally Posted by Silas
Simply maintaining an awesome buff on a team isn't spamming it.
You're right, watching the team, watching the flow of the battles and acting accordingly is being a good player. But some powers are always powers. It's like taking the stance of only tossing the Therm or Cold shields on someone if they're taking a lot of damage. For Colds, Therms and Kins, part of being a good team player is maintaining the awesome buffs on your team mates. A good Kin keeps their entire team overclocked and steamrolling. SB and Fulcrum Shift are what do that. Siphon Speed is so you can keep up. |
If I'm playing a kin and people are having trouble running into walls, getting stuck, and over aggroing due to speed boost, maybe that buff shouldn't be used for the moment. If someone asks me not to use speed boost on them, they probably have a reason. It's not my place to decide it's a good or bad reason. Nor is it my place to force it onto others.
I've got a sonic/sonic defender. I've had people ask me not to use the res shields on them. I think that's foolish, but I respect their wishes.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Unless you're going to be an avid soloer, then YES.
Take Speed Boost, tag your teammates with it and repeat when it expires.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
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Quote:
I don't feel bad. Your criticism doesn't really hurt me. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
What do you want me to say? I'm sorry you feel bad.
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You're welcome to want, use, and have SB. I respect that. The issue here is that the pro-SB lobby does not respect those that would prefer to be, do, and have without SB.
Quote:
Is there a single encounter in the game that does pure psi damage?
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
No, a good kin knows WHEN to use speed boost. I can think of several times when a thermal, cold, or sonic shouldn't use the buffs. For example, say I'm playing Blazing Sleet (an ice blast/thermal corrupter). If we're fighting an enemy group that only does psi damage, I may as well not bother with the shields. They aren't gonna help anyway.
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Quote:
And I don't use Plasma Shield on my Thermal when we're only fighting smashing/lethal dealing enemies. I don't cycle Thaw into my buffing rotation when we're fighting stuff that has no mezzes. |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
No, a good kin knows WHEN to use speed boost. I can think of several times when a thermal, cold, or sonic shouldn't use the buffs. For example, say I'm playing Blazing Sleet (an ice blast/thermal corrupter). If we're fighting an enemy group that only does psi damage, I may as well not bother with the shields. They aren't gonna help anyway.
If I'm playing a kin and people are having trouble running into walls, getting stuck, and over aggroing due to speed boost, maybe that buff shouldn't be used for the moment. If someone asks me not to use speed boost on them, they probably have a reason. It's not my place to decide it's a good or bad reason. Nor is it my place to force it onto others. I've got a sonic/sonic defender. I've had people ask me not to use the res shields on them. I think that's foolish, but I respect their wishes. |
I still took them though.
Just because there are exceptions meaning it's best not to buff, (nausea caused by sonic shields, someone just preferring to not have a given buff, the buff being a waste of time in a given scenario, whatever), it doesn't mean someone should skip the buff. AKA what this entire thread is about.
My point is to not skip SB. Yes, there will be times when it is of limited benefit. Yes, there will be people who ask to not be SBed.
Still, take SB. Not buffing people with SB should be the exception, not the rule.
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Quote:
Oh yes, yes indeed. I've fought several AVs who only do psi damage, Kalinda included. Then there's missions where I've gone through the entire mission only fighting fortunata. Then there's missions facing psi clockwork, which have nothing but psi attacks. Carnie bosses too, the AV leader of the carnival of shaddows...|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Is there a single encounter in the game that does pure psi damage?
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Do I need to go on? Psi damage may not be too common hero side, but villains face it a lot. And heroes in the 40's can encounter missions with nothing but psi damage.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Is there a single encounter in the game that does pure psi damage?
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only one i can think of is Clear out the Aslyum with Mother mayhem and malaise
Quote:
I've yet to find a single time in the game where speed boost really decided the fight. And I can easily understand someone not taking it. Or respecing out of it. Especially after 20+ levels of dealing with people who yell at you for not keeping it up 100% of the time.|
Originally Posted by Silas
My point is to not skip SB. Yes, there will be times when it is of limited benefit. Yes, there will be people who ask to not be SBed.
Still, take SB. Not buffing people with SB should be the exception, not the rule. |
While many buffs can save a team, such as resistance/defense shields or regen buffs, rarely will a recharge buff be vital, and rarer still is a recovery buff vital I find.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Quote:
By your standards nothing is vital then I guess. My fire/SR scrapper can solo +4/x8 without a kin/SB. But with the SB I go much faster at killing things and start chaining my top 2 attacks to decimate things.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
I've yet to find a single time in the game where speed boost really decided the fight. And I can easily understand someone not taking it. Or respecing out of it. Especially after 20+ levels of dealing with people who yell at you for not keeping it up 100% of the time.
While many buffs can save a team, such as resistance/defense shields or regen buffs, rarely will a recharge buff be vital, and rarer still is a recovery buff vital I find. |
Take SB don't be a tard, and if you really don't want to take SB either solo the whole time or make a second build with it. But don't whine and ***** and people give you guff or even kick you for missing a key power that everyone expects you to have.
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You're generalizing.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I don't feel bad. Your criticism doesn't really hurt me.
You're welcome to want, use, and have SB. I respect that. The issue here is that the pro-SB lobby does not respect those that would prefer to be, do, and have without SB. |
I am pro-SB but I'd kick some of the more vocal pro-SB idiots in this thread off one of my teams in a heartbeat if they brought some of the attitude I've seen here.
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Quote:
I never said SB would decide a fight. I said it was a fantastic buff and that it should be maintained, (excluding exceptions blabla). |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
I've yet to find a single time in the game where speed boost really decided the fight. And I can easily understand someone not taking it. Or respecing out of it. Especially after 20+ levels of dealing with people who yell at you for not keeping it up 100% of the time.
While many buffs can save a team, such as resistance/defense shields or regen buffs, rarely will a recharge buff be vital, and rarer still is a recovery buff vital I find. |
The essential problem I have with a lot of the hate for SB is that it's misdirected.
Like, getting yelled at for not keeping it up 100% of the time. When I read about someone getting yelled at for not having SB or letting SB drop, I don't think "man, I hate SB because of these guys yelling and being rude". I think "man, people can be stupid". Note these guys, don't team with them. Profit.
If someone has a laggy computer or they're just generally not super-quick on reflex steering and keeps smashing into walls or aggroing stuff because of SB, I don't attribute that fault to SB. It's not a failing of SB as a power that someones computer is bad or that they don't have Tron champion reflexes. Besides, they can just say, "hey, please don't SB me because of x reason". If the kin then gets mad and huffy about it, guess what, that kin is an idiot. Note these kins, don't team with them, profit.
If someones build is really well done so they get minimal to practically zero benefit from SB, that's not a failing of SB as a power. That's the person building well. Go them.
SB didn't decide a fight. Well, yeah. It's not a zomgamazing buff like Adrenaline Boost. It's not a tide-turning survival booster like shields or well-timed heals or controls or whatever. It's still a damn good buff. If you think SB needs a buff so it's more powerful, well, uh, alright. I prefer to lump it in the Just Plain Dandy category and go about my business.
You want to hate on SB? Hate on it for its failings as a power. Namely, that it has a 2 minute duration whereas almost all other ally buffs have 4 minute durations. Hell, that drives me nuts. That is a failing of the power. None of the other stuff is.
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Quote:
Hmm... I think I see the underlying problem here. Let's try to cut it till I find the problem.|
Originally Posted by Bocus_King
By your standards nothing is vital then I guess. My fire/SR scrapper can solo +4/x8 without a kin/SB. But with the SB I go much faster at killing things and start chaining my top 2 attacks to decimate things.
Take SB don't be a tard, and if you really don't want to take SB either solo the whole time or make a second build with it. But don't whine and ***** and people give you guff or even kick you for missing a key power that everyone expects you to have. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bocus_King
But with the SB I go much faster at killing things and start chaining my top 2 attacks to decimate things.
... But don't whine and ***** and people give you guff or even kick you for missing a key power that everyone expects you to have. |
1. That speed boost is a key power (it's not a fact, that's your OPINION)
2. That you need to be chaining only the 2 most powerful attacks to be effective
Interesting, especially the second 'fact'. When your playing a claws scrapper, which two attacks do you deem the ones that must be chained? Focus I'm sure, but do you consider Eviscerate the other one? According to many, using eviscerate lowers your dps so it can't be it. How about Swipe? Strike? Slash? Spin? Interestingly enough Strike, Slash, Spin, and Shockwave all do almost the same damage per target. So which two do you chain endlessly? Or wouldn't you do better damage by not restricting yourself to just two attacks, but using all of your attacks?
What about dark melee, what are the two attacks you feel must be chained endlessly? How about for each powerset you try telling me which two attacks are so great they must be the only attacks ever used, and I'll explain why that's folly. I'll do so with both ranged and melee sets.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Quote:
Yes please go on, you haven't listed one yet that does pure psi damage.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Oh yes, yes indeed. I've fought several AVs who only do psi damage, Kalinda included. Then there's missions where I've gone through the entire mission only fighting fortunata. Then there's missions facing psi clockwork, which have nothing but psi attacks. Carnie bosses too, the AV leader of the carnival of shaddows...
Do I need to go on? Psi damage may not be too common hero side, but villains face it a lot. And heroes in the 40's can encounter missions with nothing but psi damage. |
Kalinda - Telekinetic Blast
Fortunata - Telekinietic Blast
Psi Clockwork - all have brawl
Babbage - Telekinetic Blast
Ring Mistress - Telekinetic Blast
The three Carny AV's - telekinetic Blast
tk blast is ~50% smash damage and is spammed a lot as it is fast recharging.
I think the only one might be Master Illusionist, but even they spawn Dark Servant, which while low damage does negative energy.
Casting thermal shields may be of dubious value in those situations, but going out of your way to find situations that a buff provides little to no benefit is kind of silly now isn't it? You are far better off using thaw in psy heavy encounters for the mez protection and the high resistance to slow/-rech (80%!), but at the same time there are encounters where no mez or -rech is present, but that doesn't detract from thaw being a solid and worthwhile power.
That said, there is almost no scenario where SB fails to provide numerical benefit. Rad superteams... that's about it.
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Uhm, I think we may be arguing the same thing from different points of view. I don't hate speed boost. I don't love it as the 'end all be all' power either. I feel it's useful, when used properly.|
Originally Posted by Silas
I never said SB would decide a fight. I said it was a fantastic buff and that it should be maintained, (excluding exceptions blabla).
The essential problem I have with a lot of the hate for SB is that it's misdirected. Like, getting yelled at for not keeping it up 100% of the time. When I read about someone getting yelled at for not having SB or letting SB drop, I don't think "man, I hate SB because of these guys yelling and being rude". I think "man, people can be stupid". Note these guys, don't team with them. Profit. If someone has a laggy computer or they're just generally not super-quick on reflex steering and keeps smashing into walls or aggroing stuff because of SB, I don't attribute that fault to SB. It's not a failing of SB as a power that someones computer is bad or that they don't have Tron champion reflexes. Besides, they can just say, "hey, please don't SB me because of x reason". If the kin then gets mad and huffy about it, guess what, that kin is an idiot. Note these kins, don't team with them, profit. If someones build is really well done so they get minimal to practically zero benefit from SB, that's not a failing of SB as a power. That's the person building well. Go them. SB didn't decide a fight. Well, yeah. It's not a zomgamazing buff like Adrenaline Boost. It's not a tide-turning survival booster like shields or well-timed heals or controls or whatever. It's still a damn good buff. If you think SB needs a buff so it's more powerful, well, uh, alright. I prefer to lump it in the Just Plain Dandy category and go about my business. You want to hate on SB? Hate on it for its failings as a power. Namely, that it has a 2 minute duration whereas almost all other ally buffs have 4 minute durations. Hell, that drives me nuts. That is a failing of the power. None of the other stuff is. |
What I hate, and have been arguing against is the people here in this thread (and it's precursors) who think speed boost is such a super amazing awesome buff that anyone who doesn't want it, or didn't take the power must be booted on the spot and ridiculed.
I am arguing against people like SiGGy who boot someone just because they didn't take the one power they think makes the entire set 'useful'. If you read my various posts, you'll find I am saying it IS a useful buff, but not as all powerful as some are claiming. I am saying it's good to have, but situational. And I am saying it is by no means a required power to be a good kin.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Quote:
All of the minion/lut/boss spawned in association with Mother Mayhem and Malaise have at least tk blast as does Mother.|
Originally Posted by Bocus_King
only one i can think of is Clear out the Aslyum with Mother mayhem and malaise
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The Praetorian version of Malaise is pure psi, but then again he's a pushover with just dominate and mesmerize for damage. The Vindicator version (the one that summons stuff) isn't and has a couple negative energy attacks.
Anyway, my point, not that it matters, is that pure psi is very very rare. Just like the situations where SB is of no benefit.
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That's funny, cause I find anything with psi powers cuts through FF bubbles like a hot knife through butter. Even funnier since when I've seen tankers drop in seconds from a small group of psi clockwork. Or clockwork King (before the hold temp power), and yea gods have I seen the carnie AVs rip through people fast.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Yes please go on, you haven't listed one yet that does pure psi damage.
Kalinda - Telekinetic Blast Fortunata - Telekinietic Blast Psi Clockwork - all have brawl Babbage - Telekinetic Blast Ring Mistress - Telekinetic Blast The three Carny AV's - telekinetic Blast tk blast is ~50% smash damage and is spammed a lot as it is fast recharging. I think the only one might be Master Illusionist, but even they spawn Dark Servant, which while low damage does negative energy. Casting thermal shields may be of dubious value in those situations, but going out of your way to find situations that a buff provides little to no benefit is kind of silly now isn't it? You are far better off using thaw in psy heavy encounters for the mez protection and the high resistance to slow/-rech (80%!), but at the same time there are encounters where no mez or -rech is present, but that doesn't detract from thaw being a solid and worthwhile power. That said, there is almost no scenario where SB fails to provide numerical benefit. Rad superteams... that's about it. |
But you know what, I've seen TK blast far less often then any other psi attack from such mobs. In fact, I don't really recall seeing TK blast at all. Even on characters without KB protection. Maybe cause the fight ended (in the AV's favor usually) too fast. Maybe because it just wasn't used for some reason. Who knows, I just know I've not seen it too often from npcs.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Unless you have a seamless chain of aoe attacks you stand to benefit from SB. When everything but the tough single targets are left, unless you have the best dps st chain already achieved you stand to benefit from SB.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Interesting, especially the second 'fact'. When your playing a claws scrapper, which two attacks do you deem the ones that must be chained? Focus I'm sure, but do you consider Eviscerate the other one? According to many, using eviscerate lowers your dps so it can't be it. How about Swipe? Strike? Slash? Spin? Interestingly enough Strike, Slash, Spin, and Shockwave all do almost the same damage per target. So which two do you chain endlessly? Or wouldn't you do better damage by not restricting yourself to just two attacks, but using all of your attacks?
What about dark melee, what are the two attacks you feel must be chained endlessly? How about for each powerset you try telling me which two attacks are so great they must be the only attacks ever used, and I'll explain why that's folly. I'll do so with both ranged and melee sets. |
Unless you have a person already at the next spawn activating summon team, you stand to benefit from SB getting you there faster.
Quote:
Perception is a funny matter. It's there even if you haven't personally noticed it.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
That's funny, cause I find anything with psi powers cuts through FF bubbles like a hot knife through butter. Even funnier since when I've seen tankers drop in seconds from a small group of psi clockwork. Or clockwork King (before the hold temp power), and yea gods have I seen the carnie AVs rip through people fast.
But you know what, I've seen TK blast far less often then any other psi attack from such mobs. In fact, I don't really recall seeing TK blast at all. Even on characters without KB protection. Maybe cause the fight ended (in the AV's favor usually) too fast. Maybe because it just wasn't used for some reason. Who knows, I just know I've not seen it too often from npcs. |
The psi attacks that cut through FF bubbles are the psi controls like dominate, mesmerize, mass hypnosis. The pink psi attacks like subdue, willdom, mental blast are covered by ranged def.
Most tanks have no psi resistance, or very little. They are just hp at that point. Vs full mobs they will last about twice as long as a squishy if they don't heal.
Carny AV's rip through people because they are AV's and AV's deal upwards of 1k damage per hit. Few sets have Psi resistance. While they all deal a small portion of non-psi damage the majority is psi. You simply stated that they deal pure psi which is not true. Two of the three Carny AV's have a mask of x power that drastically reduces defense. I believe they check ranged/neg eng, but if they hit you are basically toast and they will hit if your bubbler said "meh they do psi damage, deal with it".
People die vs the Clockwork King (and Babbage) because they will open with their psi nuke and people have a tendency to rush AV's. Thank goodness for the one shot code basically.
Anyone who's been reading these forums for a while knows that this topic comes up periodically. Someone comments on how they hate SB or won't take it, then the flames commence. This got me started thinking about something that will probably get me burned at the stake, but here goes:
Has anyone considered the possiblity that Speed Boost is simply too good? In this very thread we have people commenting that they don't care if a Kinetics character has their Tier 9 power, as long as they have Speed Boost. That seems a bit messed up to me. So should the Devs look into whacking SB around with the nerf bat for a bit? I personally believe the answer is yes. I dont know of a single other power in the game that will get someone insta-kicked for not having, or has generated this much hate on the boards at the merest mention of the heresy of not taking it in one's build.
So nerf SB I say. Leave the run speed increase in place to benefit Stone Tankers and Brutes, but nerf the rest of the power's effects.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to run change my identity and move to a deserted tropical island before the hit squad arrives at my door.
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Take it from one who knows, I've been insta kicked on a TA/A defender for not having the mythical and non-existent Healing Arrow.
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Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
Anyone who's been reading these forums for a while knows that this topic comes up periodically. Someone comments on how they hate SB or won't take it, then the flames commence. This got me started thinking about something that will probably get me burned at the stake, but here goes:
Has anyone considered the possiblity that Speed Boost is simply too good? In this very thread we have people commenting that they don't care if a Kinetics character has their Tier 9 power, as long as they have Speed Boost. That seems a bit messed up to me. So should the Devs look into whacking SB around with the nerf bat for a bit? I personally believe the answer is yes. I dont know of a single other power in the game that will get someone insta-kicked for not having, or has generated this much hate on the boards at the merest mention of the heresy of not taking it in one's build. So nerf SB I say. Leave the run speed increase in place to benefit Stone Tankers and Brutes, but nerf the rest of the power's effects. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to run change my identity and move to a deserted tropical island before the hit squad arrives at my door. |
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
I love getting SB. Man it makes the game fun....for just about everyone but the person with the power. Being a Speed Boost bot is just about the least fun you can have in the game since faultline was made easier to get around. Single target, short duration and so dramatically and noticeably affects the play of the recipient that a deafening whine starts just 3 seconds after it expires I swear Ive seen folks with SB please key binds .. Let them eat cake!
I've never had the feeling of "it makes the game more fun". Yeah, it lets me use my bigger attacks a bit more often. And yeah on any char with archery it let's me cycle through attacks 3 times before running out of attacks instead of 2, but it's never been a "more fun" thing. Rarely do I turn it down, unless I flat out don't need the boost. I mean, I love using Omega Maneuver more often. And laying down 4 to 6 Trip Mines in prep for the next Mary MacComber AV group in the KH task force is always fun.
But the game's just as fun without Speed Boost to me.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
Anyone who's been reading these forums for a while knows that this topic comes up periodically. Someone comments on how they hate SB or won't take it, then the flames commence. This got me started thinking about something that will probably get me burned at the stake, but here goes:
Has anyone considered the possiblity that Speed Boost is simply too good? In this very thread we have people commenting that they don't care if a Kinetics character has their Tier 9 power, as long as they have Speed Boost. That seems a bit messed up to me. So should the Devs look into whacking SB around with the nerf bat for a bit? I personally believe the answer is yes. I dont know of a single other power in the game that will get someone insta-kicked for not having, or has generated this much hate on the boards at the merest mention of the heresy of not taking it in one's build. |
First of all Speed Boost is not the only power that is considered a near must-have. We don't get discussions like this about Insulation Shield because there's pretty much unanimous agreement that skipping it is a mistake.
The second part of the problem isn't so much that Speed Boost is overpowered. It's the combo of Great Buff + Fast Recharging + Short Duration that makes it such a sore topic. The power just absolutely sucks to use, because it goads you to bot it endlessly. This is the exact same thing that would happen if Insulation Shield were on a 2 minute timer instead of a 4 minute timer.
So no it's not a matter of power. The problem is that SB provides benefits players want up all the time, combined with a recharge time which permits that, combined with a short duration which means you're stuck constantly recasting it. If the power was supposed to be limited in some way the Recharge should have been longer (see: Fortitude, Forge). Instead it's "balanced" based on pure frustration. It's assumed that the cost of keeping the power active (that it's a PITA) balances its benefit. Instead it just irritates the heck out of the person stuck casting it, which is why you see a lot of people scrambling for excuses to avoid the power. Its great to have cast ON you, but casting it on other people is a lesson in tedium. All of this is why I said previously I hope this power is never ever used as a template on which to base future powers.
Quote:
You should be neg repped for being a Healing Arrow denier. After all, it worked when Manti shot Statesman. Um then again, it was kinda the long way around to healing.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Take it from one who knows, I've been insta kicked on a TA/A defender for not having the mythical and non-existent Healing Arrow.
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This is why I only team with friends, not random PuGs.
We play to have fun, not be the most efficient team ever.
Last time I had seeds of confusion, I got overconfident with the control and wiped the team
Last time I had Fortitude cast on me, I got overconfident with the DDR-less defense and wiped the team
Last time I had Drain Psyche, I got overconfident with the regeneration and recovery and wiped the team
Last time I had nova, I got overconfident with the damage and died, everyone on the team laughed at me.
Player error is player error, if you want you can have a participation ribbon if you feel it is necessary, but we aren't kids anymore so I'm not sure what to say if you feel that it is. If you'd said your system couldn't handle the speed and you lagged out into the next spawn and died, then you'd have a point. However, just saying you misjudged the situation and died is in no way, shape, or form, a problem stemming from speedboost.