City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Speed Boost? Yes/No

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-05-09 10:53 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Surely you all know that if you're forced to control a speed run while on Speed Boost (in a cave for example) you simply turn on a jetpack to slow yourself down. And add Ninja Run if you need the extra steerage.
But that's still making me jump though hoops to try to compensate for a buff that I don't want in the first place. There are additional drawbacks to using other travel powers to try to compensate for Speed Boost (endurance cost, and the accuracy penalty with Fly.)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Surely you all know that if you're forced to control a speed run while on Speed Boost (in a cave for example) you simply turn on a jetpack to slow yourself down. And add Ninja Run if you need the extra steerage.
That's not a bad idea actually. On paper. I'll give it a try. However, I suspect I won't like it much more than normal SB movement in practice, and maybe less.

Anyway, the original question is should the OP take speed-boost or will he constantly be kicked from teams.

I think on my server he'd be fine most of the time. If he plays his toon well, there are many, many people who will play with him. There might be some angsty "no SB????? u sux noob" types but they are in the minority and easily ignored.

Plus he can always respec and get SB if he wants to cave to the whiners or just spec out a second build, as somebody suggested 8 pages back.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween View Post
But that's still making me jump though hoops to try to compensate for a buff that I don't want in the first place. There are additional drawbacks to using other travel powers to try to compensate for Speed Boost (endurance cost, and the accuracy penalty with Fly.)
It would be nice if you could cancel an unwanted buff on yourself with a rt-click option on the buff display. Wouldn't be used often, but I'll bet there are other buffs than just this one that people would prefer to eschew.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazygreys View Post
Guys I can't control my toon if you SB me, so please don't.

ugh I hate seeing that from someone I SB.
I personally never understood this myself. But maybe they just have a terrible computer. *shrug*

That said, it's not really that bad when someone says "Don't SB me" untill they start complaining about their lack of END, but then complain about being SBed

I also don't see why people think SB is all about the added speed.

It's about the added +RCH and +ENDREC (which then like I said you get those "I hate how END works in this game. I hate having to take Stamina. I also don't want to be SBed!" o.O )...the +Spd is just added flavor.

I never turn down SB, but I also don't require it, but for the love of all that is, if you don't like to SB the whole team 100% of the time...

SB them when up against AVs and/or when they're bottoming out of END. Or if that's to much to ask, just don't take it.

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Posted

At a minimum for a solo type player it is a absolutely great way to get on a team. Speaking the obvious here, but putting it out here for a new comer that might not know. Teams 10 to 20 levels higher will give you an invite just because you have speed boost. I shamelessly plug it in my comments so people know I have speed boost. And as any good SB dealer I get repeat customers.

Again it's all subjective to what you want to do. Myself personally, would like to be part of a team leveling and not being solo. I can solo anytime. It's not a race to 50 persay, but I do want to get experience when I log in.

I wish every AT type had some gimmick like Kins do with Speed Boost to make them really, really wanted on a team.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I've said it before. And I'll say it again. The problem with KINs who don't take it (and if you don't want to, don't) is they'll advertise themself as KINS, knowing full well that people will invite them to the team EXPECTING them to have SB, when they can easily say...
I generally advertise my defenders as defenders, and my controllers as controllers. Whether I take Speed Boost or not depends on the character. I often wish that Siphon Speed worked more like Siphon Power and that Speed Boost was some other power that wasn't a single target buff of relatively short duration.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodion View Post
If I were to take a cue from your book of etiquette, I would dismiss anyone who wants Speed Boost on their character as a weakling needing a crutch. I would then kick them from the team because they can't hack it on their own.

Fulcrum Shift is the best Kinetics buff. Transfusion and Transference are more generally useful than Speed Boost (Transference is an excellent offensive power for preventing bosses from attacking you -- no endurance, no attacks). I have nothing against Speed Boost, and it certainly has its uses (especially for characters with long-recharge powers). But for many melee ATs with tight attack chains and good recovery it really offers nothing. When playing such characters I don't need or want Speed Boost (but I won't turn it down, either).

Kicking a Kinetic with Fulcrum Shift but without Speed Boost is just short-sighted, especially if you're replacing them with just another scrapper. FS is a force multiplier for the entire team. If you're going to be completely mercenary about it, the damage buff from FS increases your kill rate more than the +recharge buff. Unless you can find another Kin with Speed Boost on demand, you're just kicking yourself in the head when you kick the SB-less Kin with Fulcrum Shift.

In the end this is just a game that we play to have fun. I don't see why people get so bent out of shape when other players make character choices they disagree with. Unless the player is causing problems or contributing nothing, what difference does it make if the team gets 5% less XP/minute? It's not like this is the Olympics...
Hmmm...how is that exactly?

Let's assume the KIN FS, and get you to DMG cap.

I know I have a few toons who could put out better DPS with a hit of Speed Boost (now when I get the last few needed purples, the next step up for a better DPS attack string is more than SB will cover, but untill then SB puts me into a DPS string that I can't pull off yet).

So, wouldn't the KIN be better served by SBing/FSing my Scrapper? Admittedly, I don't need the +END or +SPD, but that +RCH just moved my toon into even better damage, that just FS couldnt.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
I generally advertise my defenders as defenders, and my controllers as controllers. Whether I take Speed Boost or not depends on the character. I often wish that Siphon Speed worked more like Siphon Power and that Speed Boost was some other power that wasn't a single target buff of relatively short duration.
But that's different. You're saying Defender or Controller. So it's a gamble on what they're getting anyways.

The only time I find this to be a problem is when I specifically say "team looking for Debuff/Buff" and I get the Controller with none of that "Because I'm a Controller not a Defender" OR "I'm an offender not a defender".

Well yeah, but I asked for something specifically. <_< And you offend better with the debuffs. >_> Just saying.

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Posted

Once again, Speed Boost is a wonderful buff and if you don't take it, then you're a terrible person and should just stop playing.

"Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these. It might have been."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Surely you all know that if you're forced to control a speed run while on Speed Boost (in a cave for example) you simply turn on a jetpack to slow yourself down. And add Ninja Run if you need the extra steerage.
Assuming of course that the person in question HAS a jet pack. I can tell you know that in cave missions and CoT missions I frequently get hung up on the walls/torches with Madam Enigma. And that's without sprint on, no speed boost. I also frequently find myself running past a side tunnel without even seeing it, six times.

And no, Ninja Run doesn't really add extra steerage unless jumping, it adds extra run speed though. And lots of it. Nor will everyone have ninja run. Only if somoene bought the martial arts powers booster.

But I suppose everyone should be forced into the same travel power to deal with one power?

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
But that's different. You're saying Defender or Controller. So it's a gamble on what they're getting anyways.

The only time I find this to be a problem is when I specifically say "team looking for Debuff/Buff" and I get the Controller with none of that "Because I'm a Controller not a Defender" OR "I'm an offender not a defender".

Well yeah, but I asked for something specifically. <_< And you offend better with the debuffs. >_> Just saying.
Uhm, you know the difference between an offender and a defender? Offenders take more blasts usually. I only build offenders. Even my sonic/sonic is an offender. I don't just stand back buffing. I go on the offense.

And the vast majority of offender builds will have all those debuffs you want.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Once again, Speed Boost is a wonderful buff and if you don't take it, then you're a terrible person and should just stop playing.
No, it's an ok buff which is by no means mandatory.

Is the +recharge nice? Yes.

Is the +recovery nice? Yes.

Can the +speed overshadow both of those? Yes.

Can you make a character which does not actually need or really benefit from the good parts of speed boost? Yes.

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Posted

Complaining about having to adjust for the higher runspeed is like complaining about having to brake earlier or watch the speedometer more carefully when someone gives you a free Enzo.

The awesome performance, (even if your build doesn't need it), is worth the minimal effort to not smash into a wall and die. Plan accordingly.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma View Post
No, it's an ok buff which is by no means mandatory.

Is the +recharge nice? Yes.

Is the +recovery nice? Yes.

Can the +speed overshadow both of those? Yes.

Can you make a character which does not actually need or really benefit from the good parts of speed boost? Yes.
No, it's a fantastic buff which everyone should take. From many, many years of playing, I've only ever seen one Kinetic Defender without it, who promptly got a kick. Most people without it from what I've seen were Fire/Kin Controllers, which are all farmers.

Is the +recharge nice? Hell yes.

Is the +recovery nice? Hell yes.

Is the +speed nice? Hell yes, even better when you see morons with no control run head first into walls.

Now, I'm all for building a character to be super-awesome-efficient and cool, but I'm NOT spending multi-billions on stupidly expensive sets, picking up Hasten with horrible graphics, or 6-slotting Stamina; when I can just get Speed Boost from the wonderful team Kinetics player.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
No, it's a fantastic buff which everyone should take. From many, many years of playing, I've only ever seen one Kinetic Defender without it, who promptly got a kick. Most people without it from what I've seen were Fire/Kin Controllers, which are all farmers.

Is the +recharge nice? Hell yes.

Is the +recovery nice? Hell yes.

Is the +speed nice? Hell yes, even better when you see morons with no control run head first into walls.

Now, I'm all for building a character to be super-awesome-efficient and cool, but I'm NOT spending multi-billions on stupidly expensive sets, picking up Hasten with horrible graphics, or 6-slotting Stamina; when I can just get Speed Boost from the wonderful team Kinetics player.
And neither do I! In fact, I can build a character without hasten that uses single origin enhancements only who gets little to no benefit from the +recharge or +recovery. Want to know how? Recharge redux enhancements, endurance redux enhancements, and using more then just 3 attacks.

The +recharge in speed boost is nice, but by no means as powerful as you make it out to be. Unless that is you plan to only ever use the same 2 or 3 long duration cooldown attacks non-stop. You did know it's okay to use attacks other then the ones labeled "high" and "Extreme" damage right? And if you really feel your attack chain must be Headsplitter>Disembowel>Headsplitter>Disembowel or your gimped, there are ways to do that without needing speed boost.

The +recovery aspect is nice, but again not the godsend you make it out to be. Some sets *coughdarkarmorcough* can really use it, but there's better ways to get +recovery without the hassle of +speed.

And the runspeed boost is ONLY nice when you need a ghetto travel power. You know how you say it's great to watch team mates running into walls and getting stuck on torches? You do realize that if their constantly getting hung up on the walls, they aren't helping as much as you think right?

Speed boost is nice, but is not the "end all be all" buff you claim. If a kin is useless without speedboost, I suppose you would love to team with one kin I saw. Every travel power in the game, bare minimum of primary and secondary powers, BUT he had speed boost. Couldn't really defend the team at all, but he could give you your precious speed boost. And... I'm fairly sure he'd six slotted speed boost for run speed too!

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma View Post
But I suppose everyone should be forced into the same travel power to deal with one power?
Or you could just learn to actually control your character.

 

Posted

Kins aren't useless without SB. If someone said so, they're wrong.

Granites are useless with(out) SB. Oh ho ho, c wut i did thar?

Seriously though, Kins without SB aren't useless. They're still contributing a lot with Transference and Fs, they're just not contributing as much as they should, (and easily could), be.

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Posted

SB is one of the more powerful buffs in the game and amazingly it is possible to easily apply it to everyone on your team.

The down side is that you need to spend 7% of your precious time doing it.
1.188*7 teammates = 8.316 seconds spent casting the power
120 sec duration means 8.31/120 = 6.9% of your time.

You move as fast or faster than your target cause you have 1 or more siphon speeds active so being in range of people to cast it is trivial at best. It last long enough that you can stagger the buff to hit 4 people between spawn A and the other 3 between spawn B.

There is absolutely NOTHING a kin can do with 7% of their time that is more productive than SB'ing his teammates. NOTHING. That includes fulcrum shift.

SB is easily a top 5 power for any kin build and moves up to a top 3 simply because it requires no slotting.

I've done three kins to lvl 50 now and yes there are times that I got tired of SB'ing people. Not because of SB, but because I got tired of playing a buffer in general. Sometimes it is more enjoyable to play a more selfish toon like my trappers, or storms.

FWIW a thermal spends 11.9% of their time casting the two shields on a team of 7 and Forge on two people. Another 18.5% if they keep thaw on all members (not typical, but worth knowing)
A cold spends 9.9% casting the two shields and keeping FW on two people
A sonic spends 9.24% casting the two shields and another 13.3% if they keep Clarity on everyone (not typical, but just sayin)
A FF spends 13.1% of their time casting the two shields.

Sorry, but Kins get of easy in the "buffing" department and get a huge return on investment for their time (arguably as much or more than the other ally buffers).

You don't have to take SB, but there is nothing more productive you will be doing with your time and no explanation worthy of skipping it if you are planning on teaming.

 

Posted

I'd prefer to spend that 7% of my time having fun, not SBing losers.

 

Posted

If a team doesn't specify that they're looking for a kin then it shouldn't matter whether or not you have SB.

I have five kins and one without SB. That was a conscious decision on my part; and I don't regret it; I enjoy playing her more than the others.

When playing the SB-less one, I do tend to tell people before I join. I've NEVER been refused a team for not having SB. I did have one person get uppity about it when he joined the team after me. I offered to leave, he was abusive and rage quit the team. The remaining members refused my offer to leave and once they'd finished calling him a jerk, we all completed two TFs quite happily. Amusingly on TF 1 another kin joined (with SB) and on TF2 a third kin joined (without SB).

It is my character, my money and I will play how I want. I've alted to a kin with SB many times for stoners, but if I'm not in the mood to spend every 2mins SBing someone, I'm not going to. I don't care if it's a small proportion of my time, I don't want to do it.

I do think it will depend on your server. I think you'll get less aggro on a smaller server. Having said that my SB-less one is on Virtue.

From an argumentative point of view, I think SB is the worst buff in the game. I can think of nothing that causes so much aggro. People who want it constantly (and I don't include stone tanks), people who hate it because of the way it messes up control (especially when playing melee).

Everyone seems to think they're right and wants to force their opinion on others. You know what, chill.

If you need SB, get a friend to make one and always team with him; I'm not designing my character for your amusement. If you don't want it, just let me know when I'm kin'ing and you won't get it. I won't tell you you need the recharge or SB you anyway because I know better. I respect your right to choose.

Do you what you want. Play how you want.




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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
I'd prefer to spend that 7% of my time having fun, not SBing losers.
Some people think it is fun teaming in a team based game. Part of playing in a team is playing as a team.

In my area they run these ads about the importance of enrolling kids in team based sports because of the skills and valuable lessons they learn. Not everyone learns those lessons in life as evidenced by people that play on a team like they are solo'ing near 7 other people

edit: faceless rep said "Playing as a team doesn't require SB. Team based sports should also create mutual respect. Which you obviously missed."
Don't recall saying SB was required once. Not once. It's ok if you can't understand what you are reading. Just don't respond. The rest of what you anonymously said suggests you simply have no idea what you are talking about. I can see why you'd do it anonymously.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
Some people think it is fun teaming in a team based game. Part of playing in a team is playing as a team.
I don't need SB to be a team player. Spamming a buff doesn't make you a team player. Watching the team, following the action, and taking appropriate steps makes you a team player.

On the few occasions I play my Kins, sometimes the appropriate action is casting SB on someone - usually someone that keeps bottoming out end. More often, however, the appropriate action is something else: tossing off a Hold, laying down an AoE, throwing out a Transference, Transfusion, or some other buff that isn't SB.

Casting SB doesn't make you a team player. Last time I had SB cast on me, I got overconfident with the recharge and recovery and wiped the team.

To my repper about my lack of class: people wanting SB aren't losers. People that say a Kin is worthless without SB are losers.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
I don't need SB to be a team player. Spamming a buff doesn't make you a team player. Watching the team, following the action, and taking appropriate steps makes you a team player.

On the few occasions I play my Kins, sometimes the appropriate action is casting SB on someone - usually someone that keeps bottoming out end. More often, however, the appropriate action is something else: tossing off a Hold, laying down an AoE, throwing out a Transference, Transfusion, or some other buff that isn't SB.
You can't cast holds, fulcrum, transference, or any other power you are talking about as a kin while between spawns. That's when a well played kin will use that 7% of their time. Time that is typically spent doing nothing on a kin other than getting to the next spawn, which you are helping everyone do faster. It's an appropriate step to increasing the efficiency of the team and in every sense of the word, makes you a team player.

Don't mistake what I'm saying though. Being a good team player doesn't require SB, but if you use SB it will invariably make you a better team player.

You could be the best team playing kin in the game and if you added in SB to your repertoire you'd be better.
Quote:
Casting SB doesn't make you a team player. Last time I had SB cast on me, I got overconfident with the recharge and recovery and wiped the team.
You being a bad player doesn't make the kin that was being a good team player somehow worse in their role. j/k, but not really, as your example has absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed.

You don't have to take SB. No one is holding a gun to your head. However, Kinetics is the premier forcemultiplication set and it primarily accomplishes that feat through the use of two powers - Fulcrum and SB. You can choose to eliminate either one and most teams will still accomplish their goals. You'll just be adding less to the team than someone that plays kin to its full forcemultiplication potential. Ergo, less of a team player.

Like most powers that multiply force, the more force you are multiplying the more priority that power should receive. And SB is probably a top 5 forcemultiplying power in the entire game.

 

Posted

Simply maintaining an awesome buff on a team isn't spamming it.

You're right, watching the team, watching the flow of the battles and acting accordingly is being a good player. But some powers are always powers.

It's like taking the stance of only tossing the Therm or Cold shields on someone if they're taking a lot of damage. For Colds, Therms and Kins, part of being a good team player is maintaining the awesome buffs on your team mates.

A good Kin keeps their entire team overclocked and steamrolling. SB and Fulcrum Shift are what do that. Siphon Speed is so you can keep up.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
You being a bad player doesn't make the kin that was being a good team player somehow worse in their role. j/k, but not really, as your example has absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed.
Maybe that repper wasn't wrong about your lack of respect.

This is why I only team with friends, not random PuGs.

We play to have fun, not be the most efficient team ever.