Tokyo
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Originally Posted by Xanatos
Me, Vince, and Silit wanted to 3v3 you and two random newbies we found in RV. Hardly think that's a "impromptu rp event meant for pve news on Virtue server".
We both know what you three were trying to do. Kinda thought you were above pulling something like that with newbies on our home server though, it's disappointing.
Anyway, happy thanksgiving. This will be my last post to this thread. Hope you all enjoy your holiday weekends. -
Quote:Except He's arguing creationism and i'm arguing evolution...Originally Posted by The Katalyst
This is the point in most arguments where everyone should just agree to disagree, Yellow makes a valid point in that what you two are arguing is almost entirely based on subjective opinion.
A pretty basic psychological concept that comes to mind is when people argue with eachother about opposing opinions, especially in terms of ones that are almost entirely subjective. Usually, at the end of the day, both sides just wasted a ton of time and left the argument feeling more justified in their argument. You could compare this type of argument to an Atheist and a Christian arguing, neither of you can definitively prove the other is wrong. -
Quote:Can't argue against sound reasoning. I agree with both your posts completely. If only untapped potential made for good PvP. d;DOriginally Posted by The Katalyst
Also, one reason why CoH has the potential to be fairly competitive is the way Arena works, specifically from a social standpoint... Just look at arena chat. Most forms of truly competitive PvP come from head to head, team vs. team type of matches, which is what Arena sort of does if it weren't for the other factors making PvP in this game bad at times.
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Quote:Feel free to read the PvP boards. There are ongoing topics concerning fleet tactics and strategy. Much more than here.Originally Posted by Thorizdin_LotD
I do understand, but the problem is that I don't see in my personal experience or the accounts of various groups (Goonies, BoB, etc) who've reached prominence, evidence for anything beyond zerg rush once combat starts. I see lots of prep work but nothing that even looks like battle tactics. If you believe differently then why don't you either point to some accounts of battle tactics or provide some?
No, you haven't. Yes the number of skilled players does matter. Read your own quote below....Quote:We've definitively dis proven the notion that numbers are indicative of level of competition, so clutching that piece is non-sensical.
Thank you for contradicting your previous quoted comment and proving my point...Quote:Now, I do actually agree that the PvP population in CoH hurts its competitiveness because the pool of players is too low for a robust meta-game but the size of EVE's population DOESN'T make up for its shallow combat system and again comparing them is basically useless since they focused on almost diametrically opposed approaches.
The combat is shallow in your opinion and your opinion alone. I consider this games combat to be shallow. It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it doesn't make your opinion or mine a fact, that's why it's an opinion. -
Quote:I hope so Smoke. Merc is good people, I'd hate him to be affiliated with me. d;DOriginally Posted by SmokeSignal
Merc didn't mean it. He was making fun of you, Tokyo.
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Quote:Wow, are you trying to tank any creditability you had in this community by agreeing with me?Originally Posted by Mercury_Down
I can't believe I am saying this but Tokyo actually has a point about the size of the PVP community having an effect on how competitive the PVP is.
Just look at the latest Freedom PVP League. One team is clearly dominating everyone, then you've got maybe two other teams who are close to being on par with each other but still far below the top team in skill. That adds up to about 30-35 people who determine the outcome of the league out of how many thousands of subs in COX?
Don't get me wrong, the PVP in this game is still enjoyable even in its borked post i13 form but competitive? Does ware.gov even consider any of the other teams as competition? I doubt it.
Remember, if you step away from the circle jerk you can't sit back down. d;D -
Quote:The skills required in EVE are fundamentally different and more complex than CoH. To say no skill is required is a ridiculous comment. I will agree the skills are much more focused on preparation, but I don't think you quite understand that strategy is a form of preparation. There is a great deal of strategy that goes into fleet combat and the formation of a corp.Originally Posted by Thorizdin_LotD
Preparation IS important, but it shouldn't be the end all be all of the conflict. Planning & execution go hand in hand and EVE is weak (IMO) in the execution portion of PvP. I frankly don't even consider it strong in the preparation for a battle in comparison to SB and even DF, but at least its not a weakness for EVE.
In terms of player skill in regards to PvP I don't think there is much in EVE at all because the entire game is dedicated to building fleets and getting the resources for them. Its probably the deepest current MMO in that regard and certainly takes time and dedication but little in the regard for actual tactics. There is much more social engineering than strategy, which includes those folks that get to be "friends" with people on the development team. EVE is much like checkers in that regard, there isn't a ladder or even a metric in game that directly tracks who is good and who isn't at PvP. There are things that track overall corp success, but PvP skill is really a small part of that because the game itself doesn't require skill or tactics to succeed in combat.
CoH has a different set of problems, the actual combat takes a great deal of twitch and tactical skills but the PvP community is tiny. In terms of speed its by far the fastest PvP in a MMO, but it lacks territory/resource control options. (lol, base raids) Off hand I'd agree with Fiery, comparing the two is basically impossible since they are almost complete opposites in terms of approach.
where as CoH PvP relies on each individual players twitch abbilities to kite, evade and lock a called target.
EVE is a game of Stratego. CoH is Duck Hunt.
In the end it doesn't matter which stye of PvP you prefer. I shouldn't have to tell you which games PvP is more competitive. I'm a numbers person they tend to speak for themselves.
P.s. I think Kevin Mitnick would disagree with your comment about social engineering not being a strategy... -
Quote:I'm not familiar with any international checkers league. Competition is based on the varying skill levels of those participating. It's a huge factor. A smaller factor is the medium in which they are participating in.Originally Posted by Thorizdin_LotD
Getting ready for combat and coordinating the numbers of people to bring the right resources to the fight shouldn't be the hardest part of a battle in my view and that is (or at least was) the state of things in EVE.
As for you not believing preparation should be a decisive role in whether you win or lose a battle, I do believe it should be. Some of the best chess players in the world study their competition extensively before a match in order to understand and best prepare for the match. That's how Deep Blue won against Kasparov. -
Quote:Let me turn that question around, considering how many people actually play those games..do you not see them as competitive?Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
So, you're saying WoW and CoD are some of the most competitive games in existence?
I may not like WoW PvP mechanics but it is quite competitive and certainly so is CoD. I still think the skills required to play those games are stupidly simplistic.
It all boils down to how large the pool of talent there is for teams to draw from. If you have hundreds of teams with varying skill and ability it's competitive.
CoH PvP is more like a track team of Olympic gold medalists VS. teams pulled from the Special Olympics. -
Quote:You can easily compare the competitiveness of a games pvp based on the relative size of the community. That was my point. EvE has a much larger pvp community therefore Corpss have a much larger pool of players with varying skills and abilities to draw from. CoH PvP community is so small, competition is laughable.Originally Posted by MrLiberty
Like the broken record that you are, you always insist on spouting off how "non competitive" coh PvP is. You take it further to oversimpfly what goes on boiling down to simply "Lock Speed" on a target. If that were true, MM teams would be the standard.
Mechanically, CoH is probably one of the best MMO PvP games I've tried or seen. Its not perfect, its not flawless, but the speed at which everything takes place sets it apart from other games in the genre. Before you decide to comment, no I'm not talking about Zone PvP, its horrible from a pvp mechanics standpoint.
The movement speeds capable in the several square miles of enviroment in full 3 dimensions as well as the damage speed and healing potential is what sets it apart from other games like WoW, Aion, GW, Wahammer, etc. Which use at least similar styles of PvP. You comparing Eve to CoH is kind of like saying "I prefer the pvp in TF2 over Tetris" Its like comparing apples to 90's hit singles, which is why most people look at you wondering if you are trying to troll or really just that dumb.
The only thing you've been right about is the community here, its small to the extent its hard to be competitive because you don't have enough teams in equal ability/skill ranges. Beyond that, you generally don't see the interest / time investment for teams to improve themselves beyond their current level. Why? I don't know, just look at the duration of the past few leagues and the rate at which teams tend to dissolve.
I'm not comparing EVE's style of PvP to CoH, matter of fact I've gone out of my way to point out how different they are in several of my posts. Thor and I simply have a difference of opinion about what we consider to be competitive PvP and what style we prefer. It's an argument neither of us can win. -
Quote:I rarely have trouble with lag, perhaps it's a local' issue or bandwidth issue, he may want to play with his firewall and router QoS settings.Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
If I remember correctly, Thor has a super computer that can max out Battlefield 3 which is infinitely more demanding than EVE.
As far as PvP goes, I'll continue to PvP in this game if there's actually people to still PvP with and I don't mean zone, that gets boring very quickly. I plan on PvP'ing in TOR, not sure how competitive it'll be, but if it's fun I'll stick with it for a while. Also looking forward to GW2, the B2P model looks appealing.
TOR's PvP will appeal to the fitecluber/duelist type of PvPer, most of the PvPers from this game will probably enjoy TOR. anxiously awaiting GW2; I've been wanting to get back into competitive PvP GW style for a long while. -
Quote:It's a freedom thing. Less of a circle jerk on Virtue. Also less zone farming unfortunately.Originally Posted by Psynder13
Guys im just gonna throw this out there. This kinda of bickering and ridiculous name calling stupidity is the the kinda stuff that forces new players to stay far far away from PVP. When I hold my events I will ban people permanently (quite often actually) for acting like babies. Its just a game. Right or wrong why does the PVP mentality always have to boil down to people freaking out.
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Quote:I enjoyed GW quite a bit when I was PvPing competitively in that game.Originally Posted by Thorizdin_LotD
I don't think that PvP in CoH is competitive in the current state of the game and that is mainly because of the changes in I13 and the number of people who walked away from PvP (and in many cases the game itself). My personal definition of competitive is more in the TF2, CSS, GW kind of scenarios. I DON'T consider zerg games competitive, especially EVE where the goal seems to be cram as many people as possible to produce huge amounts of server lag and call it PvP. My point on CoX is that the game play, including the PvP, is MUCH more enjoyable than a mouse click interface to space ship combat. IF EVE had implemented aiming and a decent flight sim engine I'd have been a huge fan, but I can't stand the interface and slow combat speed in a space game.
It really is one of- if not the best system for competitive PvP.
It isn't zerg gaming and I apologies if that's the assumption you walked away with. Much of the PvP incorporates forms of asymmetrical warfare. I will agree that the PvP is dramatically different than most are used to. But that's why many enjoy it.
Winning a fleet battle means very little if your net losses are greater than your opponents. This is where those spreadsheets you abhor become such a crucial component of the game as you need to consider every battle as a liability to the financial solvency of your Corp. It is very possible to lose every fleet battle against another Corp and yet still win (Those zerg tactics you mentioned come to mind.) d;D
There is aiming in the form of range and locking, Your skill in pvp isn't determined on how quickly you can lock a target, it's much more involved and complex then that. as for lag, you probably need a better rig. Don't blame the game for your legacy hardware problems. -
Quote:The word you are looking for is spelled daunting...Originally Posted by DaveMebs
I don't see how the learning curve could be all that dunting if Tokyo managed to overcome it. But what do I know with my measly 1000 post count.
If you're going to insult someones intelligence at least appear to be intelligent yourself. d;D -
Quote:Xanatos you tried to stack a 3v3 in your favor during an impromptu pvp event meant for PvE newbs on Virtue server; that's pathetic and pretty much sums up your definition of competitive pvp.Originally Posted by Xanatos
lol no-one cares
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Quote:I won't bother arguing with you as your opinion means absolutely nothing to me. The level of competition in this game is laughable (Although most who say they pvp competitively here would of course vehemently disagree, despite pvp mechanics being borked to hell).Originally Posted by Thorizdin_LotD
Had to comment on this, EVE doesn't qualify as a good PvP game in my opinion frankly as many mistakes as the devs have made in CoX the PvP (and over all game play) is far better than anything in that spreadsheet disguised as a space MMO ever produced. Gathering up as many people as you can to wait for 45 minutes and then jump into a complete lagfast != competitive.
It's possible that my definition of competitive pvp is entirely different than yours. I enjoy spreadsheets, I enjoy following market trends and mechanics and I enjoy Real risk VS Reward PvP scenarios; in-which being the winner doesn't necessarily mean you won a fleet battle, but whether your gains are high and your losses lower.
Trader fundamentals 0.01
I think even Arcana would agree with me that interpreting and exploiting spreadsheet data is a higher form of PvP. So please don't belittle data mining. -
Quote:Won't happen, won't happen aaaaaand.... won't happen.Originally Posted by Kaiserin
Rollback I13 changes. Disable Incarnates. Go from there.
Many of us will be leaving soon. If you enjoy PvP there's a few MMOs on the horizon you may want to check out. I'd recommend the MMO I PvP in competitively, but the learning curve can be daunting for most and my Corp isn't recruiting. -
Quote:Why quit every other game you play to focus on one? Right now I play two. One for the lawls, the other strictly for PvP and Business aspects of my Corp.Originally Posted by SmokeSignal
I do as well. And I wasn't talking about the community. The devs drove most of that away a long time ago when there was a chance to really make this something unique and cool.
The devs will never make PvP in this game unique or cool because they don't see the potential the engine provides.
I'll see you around on SWTOR if you decide to make the transition. You probably won't know who I am, but I prefer it that way. d;D -
Quote:You do realize Hello Kitty Online has a more cohesive PvP community than this game does, right?Originally Posted by SmokeSignal
Not at all.
This game sets the bar very, very,very low. I blame developer lack of interest. That's where it has to begin. -
Quote:You're kidding, right?Originally Posted by SmokeSignal
Oh please tell me what game's population would laugh about it so that I can rip apart the idea that their PvP is super fabulous. Very very few games do it so well that they have any place to turn their noses up at other titles.
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Quote:Probably a good idea to cut any ties with pvpers in this game. Probably an even better idea not to mention that you've PvPed competitively in coh; although it would probably elicit some good laughs.Originally Posted by SmokeSignal
Nope.
RvB RED Fed' Forever. -
Quote:Were you the kid in school that got-off on wedgies and swirlies?Originally Posted by SmokeSignal
I don't know what server we'll be on either. We should try to find out before hand and have a CoH presence in one place.
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Ya, you all need to stay here. My guild(s) is going to be there from GW and EvE Corp and I don't want them to know I know any of you...
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Quote:They also picked enclosed maps...Originally Posted by macskull
They're alright in zones and they work well with specific team makeups for the arena. dUmb ran a lot of MM-based Storm teams during the league last year (or was it two years ago, I don't even remember anymore) and had pretty good success with them.
You aren't going to start PvPing again are you Mac? That would blow my entire Hypothesis... -
I RPvP quite a bit in Virtue RV. There's just rarely anyone to RP with so I end up farming the zone(when there is another person they tend to not want to participate in RPvP so I leave them alone).
I see my build as my character sheet and a common maxim I use is:
((If your build doesn't match your swagger you're god-moding.))