City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

PvP and Badge Hunting Just Don't Mix

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-03-19 20:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
You left out people who aren't afraid of getting killed to get the shinies (Shivans, Nukes, etc.) who would no longer get access to those shinies just to protect people who won't accept the same risks.
I meant eliminate from PvP zones, not eliminate from the game. I mentioned it in my earlier post so I thought I could keep it short here.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I meant eliminate from PvP zones, not eliminate from the game. I mentioned it in my earlier post so I thought I could keep it short here.
The devs have stated those temp powers are powerful because of the risk of PvP to get them. Take them out of PvP and they will remove or nerf them entirely.

If you think the devs are going to provide Shivans or Nukes equal to the current ones from a non-PvP route you are mistaken.

total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
The devs have stated those temp powers are powerful because of the risk of PvP to get them. Take them out of PvP and they will remove or nerf them entirely.

If you think the devs are going to provide Shivans or Nukes equal to the current ones from a non-PvP route you are mistaken.
Well, I already said that there are several possible solutions and even provided some examples. And I also said that there is no situation that pleases everyone. I even suggested that some stuff could stay as a compromise and mentioned exploration badges in this context. It would be easy and in part logical to extend this to temp powers as long as they're balanced around PvP. However, I think if the devs would take this balance rule seriously they would have to nerf Shivans and Nukes. It is very easy to get both with little to no risk of PvP.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
The devs have stated those temp powers are powerful because of the risk of PvP to get them. Take them out of PvP and they will remove or nerf them entirely.

If you think the devs are going to provide Shivans or Nukes equal to the current ones from a non-PvP route you are mistaken.
The nearest PVE route to a Shivan equivalent would be the Rikti ship raid. A single raid gets you enough merits for a Vanguard power core.

One use pet, roughly equivalent to a Shivan (which is 5 use), but with longer duration. Doesn't zone though.


@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

 

Posted

PvP is funner when it's not in a desolate wasteland. The goals and shinnies in the PvP zones are to make them more then just arena matches. They are part of the PvP experience. If you wish to partake in those shinnies you should be willing to accept the price.

 

Posted

Still haven't gotten an answer to my question.

A PvEer is in RV working on badges.

I am in RV working on badges too....only in my case the badge I'm working on is the 400 rep badge.

The PvEer wants me to leave him alone so he can get his badges. The only way I can get any credit towards MY badge is by killing him.

He is the ONLY person of the opposite faction in any of the PvP zones on my server. And Arena kills don't count towards the rep badge.

So, because he asked to be left alone I'm supposed to accept that he is somehow more deserving of his badge than I am?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by lll Phoenix lll View Post
then tell me something. a badgehunter how can get the pilloxes badge and the heavy ones? he cant get them and not pvp right?
You have a problem comprehending the written word, don't you. Let's go over what you're replying to.

Quote:
Again, nobody is forced to RV, or any other PVP zone. None of the badges, or anything else in those zones, is required for the game.
Forced = must go there to complete a mission. Cannot continue going from 1-50 without doing so.

At one point, people could say they were forced into the PVP zones, yes. Back when the War Zone Liasons were placed inside, and you HAD to speak to them to get them out of your mission list and get your next mission. That was changed early on. Now, there is *absolutely nothing* that prevents you from completely ignoring PVP. Nothing blocks your progress from 1-50. Nothing forces you to risk PVP before you can get a new mission, complete a current mission, complete a task force, etc.

Nothing.

Again. nobody is forced into any PVP situation. Period.

Quote:
If somebody *wants* a badge, that's a different matter - but that's choice, not "forced."
CHoice = Personal decision to put yourself at risk, agreeing to the fact that yes, you CAN be attacked, that someone may attack your character whether you want to PVP or not. You are in a PVP zone. You made that choice to go after whatever is in there, just like your choice to change how your costume looks puts you at Icon. The game did not force you to.

You enter the zone *of your own free will.* YOU decide "hey, I want a shivan."

Contrast this with Aion, for instance, where a good part of the content post-20 is in one of three zones (using the Elyos side names) - the Abyss, which is the main war zone at all times, Eltnen, where enemy players can infiltrate via rift and "spy" missions, and Heiron, where higher level enemy players can infiltrate via rift. In fact, some of the "Campaign" quests *require* you to put yourself at risk of PVP before the next quest chain will unlock. The best gear in the game also generally requires you to PVP, requiring Abyss points and medals for fortress raids or defense to purchase.

That's required pvp exposure, not choice. There is nothing even remotely similar in COH, where you can play from 1-50 36 times per server and never see an enemy player (in a situation where they can attack you, that is - obviously you can go into co-op zones.)

So, direct answer?

Quote:
a badgehunter how can get the pilloxes badge and the heavy ones? he cant get them and not pvp right?
Yes, you can get them without ever PVPing, if you end up going in when nobody's in the zone. However, don't ***** that someone attacked you or that you have some "right" not to be attacked just because you're doing that. It's a PVP zone, you chose to go in and take that risk. If you're going to blame anyone, blame yourself, don't whine.

 

Posted

This thread delivers

Please continue

 

Posted

Just pointing out that I wasn't hunting "fire kinetic troller" and his team systematically killing them over and over. I saw him and his team once at a pillbox, wiped them out and proceeded on my path to the heroes base. I didn't see him again in zone. With that being said, if I did happen to see him again I would have attacked with no mercy. Not because I was out to give this guy a hard time, I just attack every orange name I see. Nothing more nothing less.

The funny part is that they had a team of at least 6 (mostly tanks) and didn't try to put up a fight. They taunted here and there but other than the kin spamming heals and a occasional taunt, I don't think I was attacked once in the 2-5 minutes we engaged them.

The odds were pretty even and they could have at least put up a fight. If the tanks would have spammed taunt they could have made it extremely hard for us to get a kill. Rather than put up a fight with what looked like a full team, they decided to tuck their tails under their legs and accept defeat and then complained about teh ebil pvprs attacking them in a pvp zone. They didn't want to earn the pvp reward, they wanted it given to them on a silver platter.

Now again I ask, who is the bad sport? The guy that is using the zone the way it was intended to be used, or the guy that wants to earn his shiny the easy way and expects a get out of jail free card any time he asks for one? The answer is pretty obvious to me.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Still haven't gotten an answer to my question.

A PvEer is in RV working on badges.

I am in RV working on badges too....only in my case the badge I'm working on is the 400 rep badge.

The PvEer wants me to leave him alone so he can get his badges. The only way I can get any credit towards MY badge is by killing him.

He is the ONLY person of the opposite faction in any of the PvP zones on my server. And Arena kills don't count towards the rep badge.

So, because he asked to be left alone I'm supposed to accept that he is somehow more deserving of his badge than I am?
And what will you do when they leave because you are attacking them? You get nothing other than the first kill either way. What are you really losing if you leave them alone?

If you see them attacking other players and don't want you to bother them while they do it, that's a different matter entirely. In that case, I'd say got for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmegHead View Post
Now again I ask, who is the bad sport? The guy that is using the zone the way it was intended to be used, or the guy that wants to earn his shiny the easy way and expects a get out of jail free card any time he asks for one? The answer is pretty obvious to me.
The bad sport is the one that has to be a jerk about it. So far I've seen people on both side of this argument that would classify. I've known lots of players that have left the PvP zones complaining of the attitude of the people there. Most of them never go back.

�Let there be truth, happiness, and waffles�
-Vagabond, Dark Lord & Avatar of Gnarr
The Justiciars

 

Posted

Strangely the best time I've had in PvP was a purely PvE experience.

Late night RV, in there with my bots/FF Mastermind...now I could nearly take down a single GM level AV on my own with help of a buffed Heavy.

A Second MM is in the zone farming the pillboxes, sees me single pulling BaB away from the group and fighting him. He decides to come over and lend a helping hand, we proceed to WTFpwn him.

It was rather hilarious because the only other people in the zone at that time were other farmers (who cheered us on) and one PvPer who quickly realised that 2 x MM is not someone you want to jump into (he lacked teleport foe) especially when one of them can go "meh...here...cool off a while.." and cast detention field, letting the both of us finish off the AV before turning back to the PvPer (see it has it's uses people!).

The only AV we couldn't beat in our awesometastic duo was Statesman thanks to his perma-unstoppable but overall the experience was incredibly fun.

Saying that I did enjoy PvP pre-issue 13, was a casual PvPer and would often take part in the large fights and even some fiteclubbing style things, if it got interupted nobody whinged...the spectators on the other side just nuked the people interupting.

Right, since nobody answered my question before, I'll ask again...

Could the PvP zones stand up on their own two feet if everything PvE was stripped out of them? Seriously, I'm asking this as an honest question, because, surely PvPers would prefer a zone that's entirely PvP focused and yes I do include the pillboxes/heavies of RV in the PvP catergory since they're a PvP mechanic (every FPS/RTS game has control point capture or Domination mode in it these days, makes sense for RV to have the same).

Everything else gets stripped out, non-essential (aka non-baseguard) NPCs are removed, the nukes are taken out of warburg, the shivans taken out of Bloody Bay.

PvPers must want a pure PvP experience surely, one that is unsullied by PvE, people are there for one thing and one thing alone, to PvP, no complaining, no nonsense of badge hunting just pure PvP.

Isn't that what PvPers want though?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano View Post
Strangely the best time I've had in PvP was a purely PvE experience.

Late night RV, in there with my bots/FF Mastermind...now I could nearly take down a single GM level AV on my own with help of a buffed Heavy.

A Second MM is in the zone farming the pillboxes, sees me single pulling BaB away from the group and fighting him. He decides to come over and lend a helping hand, we proceed to WTFpwn him.

It was rather hilarious because the only other people in the zone at that time were other farmers (who cheered us on) and one PvPer who quickly realised that 2 x MM is not someone you want to jump into (he lacked teleport foe) especially when one of them can go "meh...here...cool off a while.." and cast detention field, letting the both of us finish off the AV before turning back to the PvPer (see it has it's uses people!).

The only AV we couldn't beat in our awesometastic duo was Statesman thanks to his perma-unstoppable but overall the experience was incredibly fun.

Saying that I did enjoy PvP pre-issue 13, was a casual PvPer and would often take part in the large fights and even some fiteclubbing style things, if it got interupted nobody whinged...the spectators on the other side just nuked the people interupting.

Right, since nobody answered my question before, I'll ask again...

Could the PvP zones stand up on their own two feet if everything PvE was stripped out of them? Seriously, I'm asking this as an honest question, because, surely PvPers would prefer a zone that's entirely PvP focused and yes I do include the pillboxes/heavies of RV in the PvP catergory since they're a PvP mechanic (every FPS/RTS game has control point capture or Domination mode in it these days, makes sense for RV to have the same).

Everything else gets stripped out, non-essential (aka non-baseguard) NPCs are removed, the nukes are taken out of warburg, the shivans taken out of Bloody Bay.

PvPers must want a pure PvP experience surely, one that is unsullied by PvE, people are there for one thing and one thing alone, to PvP, no complaining, no nonsense of badge hunting just pure PvP.

Isn't that what PvPers want though?
Sometimes.

For that, there's the arena.

 

Posted

I think of players as the biggest, meanest, most dangerous and unfair AV's I'll ever face in this game. If I fail, well, I'll try another strategy! I'll sneak past them, or I'll try using a couple of temporary powers, or heck, maybe I'll just leave and come back another day.

******** and moaning because you got PvP'ed in a PvP zone shows a remarkable lack of creativity and sportsmanship on your part.

~union4lyfe~

 

Posted

Some badgers, like many people on the internet, are too full of their own entitlement. And I can say that because I'm a badger that's spent a =lot= of time in RV.

Yes, I got the Isolator badge the hard way, by finding the Contaminated dude in the train station, before you could flashback to Outbreak.

I'm still working on my Heavy and Pillbox badges.

I don't PVP. If I'm attacked I'll usually just stand there (Ok, get it over with) so I can log off in the hospital and switch to a different character.

Some people just feel the need to show their braided panties to everyone. Sheesh.

--NT

They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!

If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmegHead View Post
They didn't want to earn the pvp reward, they wanted it given to them on a silver platter.
Were they not fighting the NPCs that grant the badges? What appears to have happened is that they didn't want to fight other players in order to gain that reward, which is optional. I think you and your team were perfectly OK in attacking them, as were they in not fighting back (not so much for the complaining).

Optional PvP includes the choice of not putting up a fight at all.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocArcus View Post
What are you really losing if you leave them alone?
I'm sure they're losing nothing, but I'm pretty sure they attack other players mainly because they find it fun. Is it wrong in that case for them to have fun?


Quote:
I've known lots of players that have left the PvP zones complaining of the attitude of the people there. Most of them never go back.
I'm going to go and say this happens on both sides. One side will be a pvper being a d-bag by showing off this e-peen. The other side is pretty much this thread. A pve'er who wants his or her way, but the other player won't bend over for the other, pve'er complains about it, then leaves.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I assume what you meant is that you disagree on my assessment of the severity of the problem. And I would bet that the majority of the PvP side (for lack of a better term) would side with you whereas the majority of the other side would disagree with you. Because here we are at the core of the problem.
And yet I have ZERO interest in PvP and am, in fact, one of the top badgers on my server. And I don't see a problem.

Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmegHead View Post
They didn't want to earn the pvp reward, they wanted it given to them on a silver platter.
No, they wanted to earn it without PvPing, which isn't the same thing. Nobody has said that getting Shivans and Nukes should be easy, just that they don't like having to deal with PvP to get them. For all intents and purposes, PvP is an entirely different game than PvE, and not everyone wants to play it. It's like having special PvE goodies that are unlocked by solving sudoku puzzles. I'm not here to play sudoku, why are the devs trying to draw me into a sudoku game instead of the one I signed up for?

The Marketplace is another side game that not everyone cares to play. However, the stuff you can get at the market is also available through other means: mission drops, merits, AE tickets, begging in Atlas Park etc. If there was an alternate way to get the PvP zone stuff, the problem would largely be solved. But as long as you can only get the goodies in those zones, you're going to keep getting people in there who don't really want to be there, and both sides will continue to be frustrated.

"Why don't you just leave me alone?" and "Why don't you just fight back?" are both unreasonable expectations, created by the devs' unfortunate decision to try and trick square pegs into going into round holes.

99458: The Unbearable Being of Lightness
191775: How the Other Half Lives
My Webcomics

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKCarrier View Post
No, they wanted to earn it without PvPing
Ok, hold up right there... they wanted to earn it without PvPing? They wanted to earn a PvP badge without PvPing? So they expect to obtain the badge in a way that makes it much easier than the way it was designed? Sounds to me like they want it given to them in the easiest way possible.

I wont disagree that putting these things in PvP zones was a bad design, but that's how it goes. You don't need nukes shivans or PvP badges in any way shape or form. If you want them so badly than you should expect PvP to come with the deal.

As far as not fighting back... if you want to get slaughtered instead of putting up a fight that's up to you. There is no debt, no penalties, nothing but a trip to the hosp if you die. The only thing that may get damaged is a ego or two, and to that I say lol@MMO egos.

 

Posted

My two cents.

You step into a playground that has multiple basketball (basketball will hereafter be referred to as BB) courts. On one of the courts are a small group of people working on free throws. They are taking turns and not playing competitively. Well since BB courts are for BB, not for free throw practice your group chooses to challenge them to a game of BB. They decline because they just want to practice. You politely remind them that BB courts are for BB. You then charge around that court playing BB, blocking their shots, taking the ball, doing layups in front of them and heartily congratulating your own team and mocking them whenever you make a basket.

Now does that sound like you are actually playing BB or are you just screwing around and generally being annoying?

You see, there is this little letter in the middle of PvP that most PvPers seem to forget. It's the v which stands for versus which denotes competition. PvPing badgers obviously isn't done for the competition, because there is no competition. It isn't done for the challenge, because there is no challenge.

So if you are going to hunt badgers in PvP zones stop calling yourself a PvPer and start calling yourself what you are. A farmer.

Not that there is anything wrong with farming PvP recipes but you aren't actually doing PvP any more than defeating mobs who don't fight back is PvE.

Don't count your weasels before they pop dink!

 

Posted

Difference between your playground's BB courts and the game's "BB courts" (PvP zones) is that you explicitly agree to "play normal BB" (participate in PvP) when you step onto the game's "BB courts".

Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandu View Post
My two cents.

You step into a playground that has multiple basketball (basketball will hereafter be referred to as BB) courts. On one of the courts are a small group of people working on free throws. They are taking turns and not playing competitively. Well since BB courts are for BB, not for free throw practice your group chooses to challenge them to a game of BB. They decline because they just want to practice. You politely remind them that BB courts are for BB. You then charge around that court playing BB, blocking their shots, taking the ball, doing layups in front of them and heartily congratulating your own team and mocking them whenever you make a basket.

Now does that sound like you are actually playing BB or are you just screwing around and generally being annoying?

You see, there is this little letter in the middle of PvP that most PvPers seem to forget. It's the v which stands for versus which denotes competition. PvPing badgers obviously isn't done for the competition, because there is no competition. It isn't done for the challenge, because there is no challenge.

So if you are going to hunt badgers in PvP zones stop calling yourself a PvPer and start calling yourself what you are. A farmer.

Not that there is anything wrong with farming PvP recipes but you aren't actually doing PvP any more than defeating mobs who don't fight back is PvE.
Ok, I see what you're saying. Let me flip it around a bit.

Say you're on a collage basketball court practicing free throws with a couple of friends when a actual team practice begins. Since there is only one court you have a few options: join the practice, leave, stay on the court and get trampled by the collage players, or complain about how you are entitled to play how you want to play and that the collage students should expect to share the court with the kids practicing free throws. I don't know about you but I see two perfectly viable responses and two that are asinine.

As far as me being a farmer goes, I guess you're right. If it has a orange name over its head I'm going to attack it. I don't care if you're badge hunting, dueling or using the dance6 emote, I will attack you. I'm not going to check names for every move I make just because someone is badge hunting. If you want your reward work for it, or come back when the zone isn't buzzing with 30 players at prime time.

 

Posted

Here's a thought. You want to engage in PvE play in a PvP zone, right?

Now, everyone knows that PvP stands for player versus player.

Does anyone remember what PvE stands for?

I'll help you out here. PvE stands for Player versus Environment.

In a PvP zone, other players attacking you is PART of the environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Does anyone remember what PvE stands for?

I'll help you out here. PvE stands for Player versus Environment.

In a PvP zone, other players attacking you is PART of the environment.
By that logic: In PvE zones, you're still playing Player versus Player. It's just that the other player happens to be a computer.

99458: The Unbearable Being of Lightness
191775: How the Other Half Lives
My Webcomics

 

Posted

everytime I go to Warburg or SC just for the badges for accolades I get stomped 5 times. Know what I do? I take it in stride because it's a PVP ZONE!!!! lol.