PvP and Badge Hunting Just Don't Mix

No, it wouldn't. People paying attention and respecting the "This is a PVP zone, you are at risk of others attacking you whether you want to be attacked or not" instead of complaining when they are - now, THAT would solve everything.

Plus how would I get my other-side-defeats, rep badges or bounty if I had to click *every time* and all I got was "no, you can't attack me?" You'd be gutting zone rewards. (that aside from having to gut things like shivans, the mini-heavies, nukes, etc. because of the sudden lack of risk in getting them.)

/this.

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Except that if they are in a PvP Zone, and require you to enter a PvP zone, then (despite the fact that they have you attacking NPC Mobs) they are, by definition, PvP rewards. Since you have to enter the PvP zone to get them.

Placing unique rewards gathered through PvE action in a PvP zone does nothing to enhance PvP in that zone. All it does is introduce "cannon fodder" to the zone. The goal of PvP incentive should be to bring in more people looking for PvP. It should not be to bring in people who want to AVOID PvP so PvPers can take cheap shots at them. The logic behind the PvP motivation right now is flawed.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Except that the goal is not to bring in "more PvP'ers", but to provide extra things for PvP'ers to do in PvP zones.

As in, beat up on people who aren't looking for a fight? That's kind of why PvP gets such a bad name, you know.

Our developers have been in the game long enough to understand that "just because it's there" is often incentive enough. Putting an exclusive reward in a bad place WILL have people going there and then complaining about having to. That's the root of the problem. Either scale rewards such that people who don't PvP won't want them, or provide alternate means to obtain them even if those ways are vastly inferior.

If I know one thing about badge hunters, it's that they'll subject themselves to any kind of tedium just for the sake of one more badge, so if you give them a more tedious way to earn their badges WITHOUT going into a PvP zone, that'd solve this problem right there.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Or, better yet, we could go with option C): People could realize that going into an *openly marked* PvP Zone to get a reward means that there WILL be PvP going on, and stop whining. The problem is not with the Dev's putting rewards in a PvP Zone, but with the players who think that something should be changed for no other reason then that personally do not like it.

It wouldn't solve anything. If you're hurt and you complain about what hurt you, not complaining wouldn't take the pain away nor would it remove the danger of getting hurt again in a similar situation.

Oh, and I was under the impression the the problem is with players who think that something shouldn't be changed for no other reason then that person personally do not like it.

I'm sorry, but I'm completely on Sam's side on this one.

Of course, if theres a BIG SIGN saying "WARNING! Pressing this button will deliver electric shocks to your groinal area!", then proceed to press the button and complain about the fact that you recieved an electric shock, then you'd look pretty stupid for pressing the [censored] button in the first place.

Even if doing so gets you a cookie, and you really want that cookie.

I'm not against them changing it. I am, however, against people complaining about how it's unfair to them, and how DARE the Dev's "force" them to do something they dont want to do because they *REALLY* have to have the reward.

Well, The Darwin Awards is full of people who apparently do stupid things like that. And I do not argue the fact that anyone who enters a PvP zone should know what to expect. But telling them to stop complaining solves nothing. And they have a right to complain, of course (that doesn't necessarily mean they have good reason ).

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

I think this actually touches the core of the problem.

There are two types of PvE rewards in PvP zones that cause problems (and let's not argue over a definition of PvE reward in a PvP zone – I think the majority would agree that it's about HOW you get the reward and not WHERE).

Temp Powers
Basically we're talking about Shivans and Nukes here. I think I remember a Dev saying that these powers were balanced partially considering the risk of PvP in the way to obtain them.
Well, this means they're a bit too powerful as there's little to no risk of PvP IF you're patient enough. Personally I don't think anyone should complain about them. However, I would still prefer to see them removed from Bloody Bay and Warburg and added as a reward in a cool new TF, for example.

Badges
I assume that people who are interested in badges usually try to get a complete collection or not bother at all with them. This is what „forces“ them into PvP zones to get the badges there.
a) Exploration badges
Wouldn't make sense to remove them. Plus they're easy and fast to get. The PvP risk is minimal.
b) PvP badges
I mean the „real“ PvP badges here. Like the arena badges or the rep badges. You have to engage in PvP in one way or another to get them. Obviously you can't change them now, although I believe it would have been better to introduce something else for PvP and not use badges here.
c) Certain defeat badges
This should be resolved by GR with the possibility to go to the other side and get the defeats there.
d) The rest
RV AV badges, Pillboxes, Heavies. These are problematic because to get them you have to invest much time and effort. And to me it seems to be very unfair to allow another player to nullify that (especially in the case of the AV badges). Badges are NOT balanced around PvP and I see no reason not to remove these from PvP zones and add them somewhere else.

I know that the list I made is not complete. But I think you get the general idea.

It was resurrected by Terror1.

Besides, I think you're missing the point here. This is not about the risk of getting attacked in PvP zones but about the reasons to enter these zones.

Well, let's see.

On one side, you have some shinies. Temp powers and badges count as shinies. My definition of "shinies" is: "Things you want to acquire for your character, but are not required to play the game"

On the same side, you have farmers. Farmers are usually the most vocal complainers when they get attacked.

The devs don't condone farming, and they are NOT okay with it, in spite of what the farmers would have us believe. They just don't enforce it. It's like jaywalking, just because you aren't given a ticket for it doesn't mean it is okay. It is still illegal, just not enforced. The lack of enforcement is pretty much the same in both cases, way too many people do it to make enforcing it worth it. But....if you get hit by a car while jaywalking, it is YOUR fault, not the driver's. PvP zones are not meant for farming, they never were meant for farming, and I can state with a reasonable amount of certainty that they never WILL be ment for farming. They are meant for PvP, hence the name "PvP zone". If they were there for farming they'd be called "Farming zones"


On the other side, you have the people that are there to PvP. They are using the zone for the thing it was put there for. The farmer who complains that he is attacked actually has no right to complain about it. He is not using the zone for what it was meant for, the PvPer IS.

All the shinies that you can acquire in PvP zones are part of the reason the zones were created.

In Bloody Bay, heroes and villains are fighting over chunks of the meteors. The person who killed you while you had a meteor shard? Yeah, that's what you're SUPPOSED to do.

In Siren's Call, heroes and villains are battling over control of the zone. If you're in there farming Warrior bosses for the Legionaire badge and get killed by an opposing player? Yep, again, that is the point of the mini game for that zone.

In Warburg, everyone is fighting over the missiles in the zone. If you have launch codes and get killed? Yup, you guessed it, that's what is supposed to be happening in there.

In Recluse's Victory, heroes and villains are fighting over the fate of the future. That involves controlling the pillboxes in order to control the zone. Killing someone that is fighting a pillbox is what you're supposed to do, because that's how you play the mini game for that zone.

Complaining that you aren't permitted to do those things in peace is, essentially, complaining that you aren't allowed to use the zone for something it wasn't intended for. The people complaining that they aren't allowed to make exploitive AE missions? Same thing. The only difference is the devs are unlikely to ban someone for farming in a PvP zone, because it isn't worth their time to enforce it.....since the PvPers seem to be enforcing it FOR them.

Anyone who says "You aren't supposed to use AE for farming, because that's what the devs said" and then says "Why do people keep attacking me in PvP zones?" is competely missing the point, and probably has no idea that they're being a hypocrite when they say it.

The people attacking you are doing exactly what they're supposed to do in that zone. Almost 100% of the time, the people doing the complaining are NOT doing what they're supposed to do in there.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

But this is not what is happening in those zones. In Bloody Bay no one is fighting over meteor chunks. The PvEes just go there to collect them and in the rare cases some PvPers are there, they're trying to kill the PvEers. Same in Warburg. And in RV it is very very rare to find someone who is actually going after the Mini-Heavy and if there's someone they'll often ask for help from the other side. That's why some people say it's bad game design. And I agree with them. Remove the badges from AVs, Pillboxes and Heavies and you'll see much less complaining in RV (I'm not so naive to believe that there's a chance people stop complaining entirely - and if you just remove these badges from the game you'll see much complaining about that, of course).

The purpose in both of those two zones is the same.

You are there to do 2 things:

Collect meteor shards or launch codes. This is what the PvEers are doing.

-AND-

Prevent the other side from collecting meteor shards or launch codes. This is what the PvPers are doing.

The point of the zone's very existence is the meteor shards and launch codes. BOTH sides are supposed to be doing BOTH things, that is the idea behind the minigame found in those zones.

If you have 3 meteor pieces and someone comes along and kills you, you know what you can do then? You can chase them down, kill THEM, and take the pieces back.

You actually have an advantage over that person: Since they were your pieces to begin with, you know exactly where they need to go to complete the collection, and you can lay in wait for them to show up at the last one. If you wait for them to collect that last piece before attacking, you get your revenge, AND you get all 6 pieces. That's how the zone is designed to work, heroes and villains fighting over the shards.

BUT....the PvE players decided that they didn't want to PvP in order to get their shards. And furthermore, they decreed that the PvPers were WRONG for playing the minigame in the zone exactly how it is supposed to be played.

The PvE players that scream bloody murder when their shards are stolen are completely failing to realize that the zone is designed that way on purpose. If you weren't supposed to kill other players to steal their shards, it wouldn't be possible to do it in the first place. The person that just killed you and took your shards is the one using the zone correctly, what YOU are supposed to be doing is trying to get them back.

Every PvP zone is set up with the same kind of thing in mind, and they are all designed to give people something to fight over. Complaining that someone is playing the zone's minigame correctly is really.....well, lame.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Those badges are for participating in a zone event, asking for them to be removed because you don't want to PvP is no different from asking for Mothership raid badges to be removed cause you only like soloing. Badges are designed to reward different play styles, if you aren't willing to diversify your play style then there will be badges you can't get.

By the way, despite their names, PvP Zones weren't designed for just PvP, that's what the Arena is for. They're meant to give mixed PvP/PvE experiences, i.e. World PvP, and the content there in is for people who like that play style, not to lure PvE only players into PvP.

I see. And when you speak on the devs' behalf, we should just take YOUR word for it, but ignore what the big, bad farmers say?

We have to distinguish here between 'okay farming' and 'exploitive farming'. If you want to log your fire/kin and clear the Council Empire map twenty times solo, the devs have ZERO problem with that. THEY SAID SO. (Well, one of them said so, but it was the big enchilada.) You want to actively farm standard missions all day long, go for it.


Sorry, bad comparison as your statement is flat-out false. Farming is not 'illegal' (or against the rules, TOS, EULA, or whatever guidelines you'd like to apply).


Of course, at the opposite end of the spectrum, if you are using a macro'ing keyboard to automate your character for farming - that's absolutely 'illegal' and will get you permanently banned.


To summarize, in a nice and obtuse manner: There's farming and there's 'farming'.

Half right. Yes, we'll submit to epic tedium for a badge.
However, we'll gravitate toward the way that's least labor-intensive. If I can spend 10 minutes in a PvP zone for a badge, or 30 minutes elsewhere, you can bet I'll be in that PvP zone.