PvP and Badge Hunting Just Don't Mix
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-03-19 20:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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No, everybody's *not* particularly happy. You make assumptions about PVPers not being "bothered about narrative." As well as prior dev statements about the powers, *and* the difference between the arena's scheduled, arranged matches and the completely random flavor of the zones.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Rather than stripping all the PvE elements away from PvP zones, I'd suggest stripping all the PvP elements out and reworking the zones into PvE-only zones. There's a lot of potential in those zones that's wasted on the PvP community. PvPers don't seem to be all that bothered about narrative, for example. Why waste zones with a cool storyline like Bloody Bay, Warburg and RV on them? Let them use the arenas and give the arenas instanced versions of the current PvP zone maps. Give the PvP zones some contatcs and story arcs that tie in with their lore, and reduce the strengths of the nukes and shivans if necessary.
Then, PvPers can PvP just like they do now, but without having to put up with moany badgers etc, and PvEers never have to meet a PvPer. Everybody's happy. Eco. |
There are *four* PVP zones. The only zone type there are less of are co-op zones (two, three when Pocket D has missions going.) How about not getting rid of them?
You want instanced versions, push for more missions using an instanced version of the zone - minus, or with appropriately *weakened and limited,* per dev statements - versions of some of the temp powers - for some PVE missions instead of saying "Blah, PVPers don't care, just take it away from them and let us get our shinies."
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If nobody attacked anybody in BB or WB, it would be easier to obtain nukes and shivans. This is not a disputable assertion. The intent of the developers is not relevant.|
Originally Posted by LiquidX
Except they don't. They want to turn it into something it's not.
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Look, I'm not taking a side here. I want the PvP zones to be for PvP. I want to see lots of people actually PvPing instead of desperately trying to avoid PvP in a PvP zone. That's not what the current reward structure actually rewards, and as long as that remains the case, nobody wins. It's endless pointless stupid antagonism from now until doomsday.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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Quote:
My mistake, I thought PvPers wanted to actually PvP, not read stuff.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No, everybody's *not* particularly happy. You make assumptions about PVPers not being "bothered about narrative." As well as prior dev statements about the powers, *and* the difference between the arena's scheduled, arranged matches and the completely random flavor of the zones.
There are *four* PVP zones. The only zone type there are less of are co-op zones (two, three when Pocket D has missions going.) How about not getting rid of them? You want instanced versions, push for more missions using an instanced version of the zone - minus, or with appropriately *weakened and limited,* per dev statements - versions of some of the temp powers - for some PVE missions instead of saying "Blah, PVPers don't care, just take it away from them and let us get our shinies." |
How about when you click on the entrance to any PvP zone you get an option to go to a PvE version (as I described above) with no PvP allowed, or the PvP zones as they are now, then? Would everyone be happy then?
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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As long as the shivans, nukes and patrol granted powers are removed or greatly reduced from that version.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
My mistake, I thought PvPers wanted to actually PvP, not read stuff.
How about when you click on the entrance to any PvP zone you get an option to go to a PvE version (as I described above) with no PvP allowed, or the PvP zones as they are now, then? Would everyone be happy then? Eco. |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Off the cuff quick fix:
* Bloody Bay: One of the meteors can only be scanned by villains. One can only be scanned by heroes. To get a Shivan, you must knock at least one shard off someone from the opposing faction.
* Warburg: One of the launch codes can only be obtained by villains. One can only be obtained by heroes. To get a nuke, you must knock at least one launch code off someone from the opposing faction.
There, now they're PvP rewards.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
Hehehehe yeah
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Off the cuff quick fix:
* Bloody Bay: One of the meteors can only be scanned by villains. One can only be scanned by heroes. To get a Shivan, you must knock at least one shard off someone from the opposing faction. * Warburg: One of the launch codes can only be obtained by villains. One can only be obtained by heroes. To get a nuke, you must knock at least one launch code off someone from the opposing faction. There, now they're PvP rewards. |
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Here's a way to avoid that mistake in the future:|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
My mistake, I thought PvPers wanted to actually PvP, not read stuff.
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Replace "PVPer" with "Person." Amazingly, not one-dimensional people who do nothing but PVP. I PVP. I also RP. I also an a costume hound. I also go after lore and story arcs (example: writing out the initial AE guides, and doing the Kheldian backstory guide, both linked in my sig.) I play with other people who will PVP, who RP, some of whom are costume hounds, others who pursue "perfect" builds, soft caps, concept builds and the like.
So, in short, yes, some PVPers actually can and do "read stuff."
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How about when you click on the entrance to any PvP zone you get an option to go to a PvE version (as I described above) with no PvP allowed, or the PvP zones as they are now, then? Would everyone be happy then? Eco. |
- Rewards in PVE zones get taken away and/or nerfed, per prior dev statements.
- PVE-only people then come to the boards and complain loud and long how it's "not fair they have to deal with PVP to get the good stuff."
Same arguments, just slightly changed, continue.
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Strangely, I made similar (not the same, I believe mine had to do with getting access to the firebases in the first place requiring defeating a villain) arguments one of the last times and was told "No, that's gameable, just have someone log in a villain and stand there to get beat up - no actual PVP happens so it's still PVE!" |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Off the cuff quick fix:
* Bloody Bay: One of the meteors can only be scanned by villains. One can only be scanned by heroes. To get a Shivan, you must knock at least one shard off someone from the opposing faction. * Warburg: One of the launch codes can only be obtained by villains. One can only be obtained by heroes. To get a nuke, you must knock at least one launch code off someone from the opposing faction. There, now they're PvP rewards. |
Yeah. I pretty much gave up on that person at that point.
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Warburg is a free for all zone. You can attack anyone not on your team.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Off the cuff quick fix:
* Bloody Bay: One of the meteors can only be scanned by villains. One can only be scanned by heroes. To get a Shivan, you must knock at least one shard off someone from the opposing faction. * Warburg: One of the launch codes can only be obtained by villains. One can only be obtained by heroes. To get a nuke, you must knock at least one launch code off someone from the opposing faction. There, now they're PvP rewards. |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
The pvp argument reminds me of a discussion of grammatical paradoxes, this snippet:
"This sentence contains one error." Of course it is in error, since it contains no errors. That is, it contains no spelling errors ("first-order errors"). Needless to say, there are such things as "second-order errors"-errors in the counting of first-order errors. So the sentence has no first-order errors and one second-order error. Had it talked about how many first-order errors it had, or how many second-order errors it had, that would be one thing-but it makes no such fine distinctions. The levels are mixed indiscriminately. In trying to act as its own objective observer, the sentence gets hopelessly muddled in a tangle of logical spaghetti.
Seems to me the two sides of the pvp argument so often drive past each other depending on the importance they place upon the different orders of the argument. The poor PvPer just can't understand why someone doesn't want to pvp him in a pvp zone, the poor PvEer just can't understand why a cut-it-out request goes unheeded. Its like watching a bad Three's Company sketch which is admittedly a bit redundant.
Umber's Hall of Heroes & Villains
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Making an ungameable system is difficult and unrewarding. Making a system that's easier to play as intended than to game is much more doable. My entire point is that the current zone rewards don't even meet that lowered standard.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Strangely, I made similar arguments [...] one of the last times and was told "No, that's gameable [...]!"
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. If the developers really wanted to encourage people to fight each other in PvP zones, they'd gin up some numbers for XP, inf, and drop rates for players, and reward them on PvP kills and deaths at a ratio that favors winning over losing. Even I can be coaxed into getting gunned down repeatedly for minimal rewards and a chance at good rewards. Of course this is gameable, but there are ways to make it much more rewarding for people who try to win than for people who try to lose or who try to exchange wins.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
The general point is to make it impossible to obtain the reward without defeating somebody in PvP. I'm not terribly interested in hashing out the details; I assert that a solution exists, and the proof is left to the reader.
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Warburg is a free for all zone. You can attack anyone not on your team.
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@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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We could do the WoW thing and have people wait till enough people wanted in a PvP zone to open it up.
Okay, on the subject of why are these extremely powerful temp powersin PvP zones, where people who don't like PvP have to go to get them:
The only temp pet available in the game that is more powerful than a Shivan is the Vanguard Heavy.
A Shivan takes between 20 and 40 minutes to get, depending on the AT of the character in question. And you get FIVE of them.
A Vanguard Heavy costs 250 Vanguard Merits to acquire. I have never gotten that many while soloing in less than 2 1/2 hours without a ship raid happening. Unless I'm mistaken the 250 merit power core gives you ONE heavy.
So, one vanguard heavy in 2 1/2 hours, versus five Shivans in 30 minutes. How the hell is that fair?
Oh yeah.......you run the risk of being killed by another player while getting the Shivan, while that risk does not exist while getting the heavy. THAT'S how it's fair.
Look at the other temporary pet powers in the game. There are only TWO that are obtainable multiple times at full strength, wthout having to have a specific contact to get the mission that grants it. One of them requires a significant investment of time if you're not on a ship raid. The other requires you to enter a PvP zone, where you may or may not be attacked by another player. I would call that fair and balanced.
If you DON'T get attacked I'd say the Shivan is very overpowered for what you do to get it. And yet people complain because they get attacked 1 time out of 5 trips (guessing here, I have no idea how often it actually happens)
The Warburg nukes really don't have a comparison, and they are more difficult to obtain than Shivans if your character lacks a stealth power (which you can get in Siren's Call for a 5 minute patrol mission).
You really want to get your Shivan without being exposed to PvP?
Fine. Make it take as long to get solo as a Vanguard heavy, and make it so you get one at a time, and I'll be okay with it. You want 5? Do it 5 times.
The Shivans and nukes are as powerful as they are BECAUSE of the PvP exposure. If there was no risk of attack they would be much, much weaker or not exist at all.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Fair enough. I assert there is no need to make this change to the existing system to satisfy some warped perspectives of the zones.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
The general point is to make it impossible to obtain the reward without defeating somebody in PvP. I'm not terribly interested in hashing out the details; I assert that a solution exists, and the proof is left to the reader.
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Yes, that's what I said in my original suggestion. I'd rather see them reduced in power than removed outright - they are quite cool, and would still be even if they were nerfed to bring them in line with other temp powers (The anims etc are cool i mean; it would be a shame to see them go).|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
As long as the shivans, nukes and patrol granted powers are removed or greatly reduced from that version.
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Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I did not ignore what you said. Actually I even agree with most of it. However, my argument was and is that people are NOT playing in BB and WB, and to a degree in RV, as intended. People are NOT fighting over Shards and Codes. And I think this is an important point because it indicates that there is a problem in the design of the zone minigame.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The Shivans and Warburg nukes are rewards for participating in a zone event. If no one's in there when you go to get them, cool, you get a free pass this time. But, if someone IS there and they stop you from getting them, that is the zone event playing out how it is supposed to play out.
The fact that almost no one does the event in the zone the way it was designed is NOT the point. The point is, you have no right to complain when someone actually does. As I said before, which I note that you completely ignored, both sides in the zone are supposed to be trying to collect meteor shards, and both sides are supposed to be stopping the other side from doing so. [...] It's a simple case of entitlement. People seem to think they should be allowed to obtain something without doing the thing that it is a reward for doing. Shivans and nukes are the most powerful temp powers in the game, the fact that you have to expose yourself to PvP to get them is WHY they are that powerful. They would be extremely overpowered as a PvE reward with no real risk involved. |
Well, and I already said what I think about complaining and the level of power of the BB and WB temp powers, remember?
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Originally Posted by Myriad
Temp Powers
Basically we're talking about Shivans and Nukes here. I think I remember a Dev saying that these powers were balanced partially considering the risk of PvP in the way to obtain them. Well, this means they're a bit too powerful as there's little to no risk of PvP IF you're patient enough. Personally I don't think anyone should complain about them. However, I would still prefer to see them removed from Bloody Bay and Warburg and added as a reward in a cool new TF, for example. |
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I mean 'read stuff while they're doing the PvPing - I didn't mean that a player cannot like to PvP in RV on monday and then do some SFMArcs on tuesday, a TF on wednesday, etc. In my experience, the PvP I see is independent of any narrative reasoning for it. RPvP doesn't exist, does it?|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Here's a way to avoid that mistake in the future:
Replace "PVPer" with "Person." Amazingly, not one-dimensional people who do nothing but PVP. I PVP. I also RP. I also an a costume hound. I also go after lore and story arcs (example: writing out the initial AE guides, and doing the Kheldian backstory guide, both linked in my sig.) I play with other people who will PVP, who RP, some of whom are costume hounds, others who pursue "perfect" builds, soft caps, concept builds and the like. So, in short, yes, some PVPers actually can and do "read stuff." |
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Result: - Rewards in PVE zones get taken away and/or nerfed, per prior dev statements. - PVE-only people then come to the boards and complain loud and long how it's "not fair they have to deal with PVP to get the good stuff." Same arguments, just slightly changed, continue. |
Yeah, you'd probably get people complaining anyway, but what can you do?
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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There are non-PvPers who accept that the PvP zones have the possibility of being PvPed and do not make demands that we should have access to the badges and temp powers of the PvP zones without that risk.|
Originally Posted by Umber
The pvp argument reminds me of a discussion of grammatical paradoxes, this snippet:
"This sentence contains one error." Of course it is in error, since it contains no errors. That is, it contains no spelling errors ("first-order errors"). Needless to say, there are such things as "second-order errors"-errors in the counting of first-order errors. So the sentence has no first-order errors and one second-order error. Had it talked about how many first-order errors it had, or how many second-order errors it had, that would be one thing-but it makes no such fine distinctions. The levels are mixed indiscriminately. In trying to act as its own objective observer, the sentence gets hopelessly muddled in a tangle of logical spaghetti. Seems to me the two sides of the pvp argument so often drive past each other depending on the importance they place upon the different orders of the argument. The poor PvPer just can't understand why someone doesn't want to pvp him in a pvp zone, the poor PvEer just can't understand why a cut-it-out request goes unheeded. Its like watching a bad Three's Company sketch which is admittedly a bit redundant. |
So you left out a non-PvPer who doesn't give a hoot about people who think they should be able to traipse into the PvP zones with little or no risk and get Shivans and nukes.
PvP risk raises the power and value of those temp powers. Many of us accept those in combination and are tired of people who think they should get it without the effort/risk.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Leave things as they are.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I mean 'read stuff while they're doing the PvPing - I didn't mean that a player cannot like to PvP in RV on monday and then do some SFMArcs on tuesday, a TF on wednesday, etc. In my experience, the PvP I see is independent of any narrative reasoning for it. RPvP doesn't exist, does it?
Well, I'd say that less would complain, because there's a subset of PvP-averse PvEers who would be happy with the nerfed Shivans they could get from the new PvE-versions of BB for example. Like me. Yeah, you'd probably get people complaining anyway, but what can you do? Eco. |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I agree with the general statement that Shivans are and should be balanced around being difficult to obtain. In general, PvP is more difficult than PvE - it's supposed to be a fair fight under ideal conditions, as opposed to a fight that you win by design - and you can and should balance PvP rewards around that generally increased difficulty.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The Shivans and nukes are as powerful as they are BECAUSE of the PvP exposure. If there was no risk of attack they would be much, much weaker or not exist at all.
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And yet, the fewer people are actually PvPing, the easier they become to obtain, and vice versa. It takes 5 minutes to obtain a Shivan if nobody is using the zone for its stated purpose, and 2.5 hours (or more!) if lots of people are PvPing. Rather than acting as a compounding effect on PvP, it acts as a regulator: if too much PvP is happening, people will leave the PvP zone because they can't get the PvP zone reward. Worse yet, if the zone factions are balanced in numbers, rewards are harder to get than in the case of a gross imbalance. Everything about the zone reward system is inimical to balanced, widespread PvP.
There are reward structures that make rewards easier to obtain as more people participate. The RWZ zone event makes it drastically easier to obtain Heavies when lots of people play the zone game. PvP zones have the exact opposite system.
This.
Is.
Dumb.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
I don't RPvP but my husband does.
If you ever ganked Mr NoPants after chasing him around a zone and he laughed that was him in character. He finds a proper beatdown hilarious. He'll also flirt with villain chicks over broadcast...even when I ask him to stop...
I don't get it but he enjoys the whole RPvPvE (did I do that right?) pie.
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I've got Shivans loads of times on various toons. I can't remember the last time I was attacked to any sort of annoyance level when doing a Shivan run. BB PvPers seem to stick to the warehouse roof in the middle for the most part, which is fine by me |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If you DON'T get attacked I'd say the Shivan is very overpowered for what you do to get it. And yet people complain because they get attacked 1 time out of 5 trips (guessing here, I have no idea how often it actually happens) |
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I don't think it would work this way. In effect this would come close to removing the temp powers from the game unless you bring a friend with a toon from the other side. Perhaps if you add something like a codecard that drops on a successful PvP kill and is needed to access the computer. That way you eliminate the probelm of getting the right shard from the enemy and you don't even have to wait for someone to get a shard in the first place.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Off the cuff quick fix:
* Bloody Bay: One of the meteors can only be scanned by villains. One can only be scanned by heroes. To get a Shivan, you must knock at least one shard off someone from the opposing faction. * Warburg: One of the launch codes can only be obtained by villains. One can only be obtained by heroes. To get a nuke, you must knock at least one launch code off someone from the opposing faction. |
EDIT:
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
The general point is to make it impossible to obtain the reward without defeating somebody in PvP. I'm not terribly interested in hashing out the details; I assert that a solution exists, and the proof is left to the reader.
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PvPers have the stated intent of the devs on their side. PvEers have the actual reward structure on theirs. This is dumb.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.