PvP and Badge Hunting Just Don't Mix
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-03-19 20:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Ultimately, it comes down to proper social interaction and etiquette. If someone asks a PvPer to leave them alone while they're trying to get an Exploration badge, then the PvPer should respect that. It takes only a few seconds to get to an Exploration badge, and then the PvEer is gone.
If a person is fighting a bunch of NPCs, then don't wait until the NPC is down to a sliver of health and then nuke the PvEer ... and then steal their kill.
In *no* case, should a PvPer call his buddies to gang-up on an individual (PvEer or PvPer). That shows a total lack of confidence in one's own abilities and is unequivocably rude.
Sure, you can argue that PvP zones are for PvP and do so until you're blue in the face. However, rude and antisocial behavior (especially in the pursuit of colorful pixels) only reflects poorly on the participant.
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Arenas work that way, basically. |
Originally Posted by LISAR
We could do the WoW thing and have people wait till enough people wanted in a PvP zone to open it up.
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Personally, I prefer being able to pop in whenever I want, as well as not knowing from one minute to the next what's going to happen that we get in the zones. Could be empty, or I could find myself suddenly in the middle of a full team of the other side's players. It's far more interesting that way.
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This is - well, not always true. It tends to be case by case. |
Originally Posted by Myriad
I did not ignore what you said. Actually I even agree with most of it. However, my argument was and is that people are NOT playing in BB and WB, and to a degree in RV, as intended. People are NOT fighting over Shards and Codes. And I think this is an important point because it indicates that there is a problem in the design of the zone minigame.
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For instance, I've attacked others just for being there and on the opposite side, regardless of what they're playing. And - well, yesterday, in fact - I was on an ice/cold dom, found there was another hero in zone. Tracked them down, saw they were having trouble in general (only ninja run, having to heal to keep from getting killed a few times on one turret) and decided to help them out instead. Had they turned around and shot at *me,* I'd have happily finished them off.
Others will attack the other side regardless, still others will help unless attacked or just avoid people as best they can.
In WB, probably because of the levels involved (it's hard to be mostly helpless at 30-38/43) I see much less "mercy" involved - it tends to be almost universal "kill on sight."
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And yet the PVPer is denied bounty, rep, and progress towards their own rep badges, if they're going after that, not to mention the reward drops (including potential PVP IOs.) |
Originally Posted by Amerikatt
Ultimately, it comes down to proper social interaction and etiquette. If someone asks a PvPer to leave them alone while they're trying to get an Exploration badge, then the PvPer should respect that. It takes only a few seconds to get to an Exploration badge, and then the PvEer is gone.
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If you want to argue "let them run over the badge first?" fine.
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| If a person is fighting a bunch of NPCs, then don't wait until the NPC is down to a sliver of health and then nuke the PvEer ... and then steal their kill. |
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| In *no* case, should a PvPer call his buddies to gang-up on an individual (PvEer or PvPer). That shows a total lack of confidence in one's own abilities and is unequivocably rude. |
Your "rules" are, frankly, naiive and unrealistic.
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| Sure, you can argue that PvP zones are for PvP and do so until you're blue in the face. However, rude and antisocial behavior (especially in the pursuit of colorful pixels) only reflects poorly on the participant. |
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Arenas work that way, basically.
Personally, I prefer being able to pop in whenever I want, as well as not knowing from one minute to the next what's going to happen that we get in the zones. Could be empty, or I could find myself suddenly in the middle of a full team of the other side's players. It's far more interesting that way. |
So maybe the Arenas need to be tweaked to simulate that experience (adding maps of the current PvP zones). They could add a button to the Arena interface that just acted as a direct immediate port to whichever of the 4 maps you wanted to choose, irrespective of how many Players were already in it. Remove the Zone Event rewards and any badges from these maps and at the same time, the 'real' PvP zones could be reworked as PvE zones with the Zone Event rewards still present, but much reduced in strength to make the risk-vs-reward factor normalized.
Would that system be acceptable, Bill? You'd still be able to "pop in whenever I want, as well as not knowing from one minute to the next what's going to happen that we get in the zones.", plus you'd never meet anyone uninterested in PvPing with you.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Yes, it does. I've done that as well - it's nice having a SG with members on both sides. And one of my favourite "serial opponents" on my PB was a stalker. In her bio, she mentioned "hating being called cute." We had several months of back and forth whenever we'd run into each other in zones. Unfortunately, I don't think they're in game any more.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I mean 'read stuff while they're doing the PvPing - I didn't mean that a player cannot like to PvP in RV on monday and then do some SFMArcs on tuesday, a TF on wednesday, etc. In my experience, the PvP I see is independent of any narrative reasoning for it. RPvP doesn't exist, does it?
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I do agree with Sam on this aspect. It's not as bad on the COH side as COV where in order to obtain both the Marshall and Born in Battle accolades, along with the bonuses they provide, villains have to enter PvP zones just to get history and or exploration badges. Temp powers are one thing... If you don't want to take the risk to obtain them the solution is simple just don't go in there after them but the Accolade badges that award similar powers on the hero side don't require anyone to enter a PvP zone and fight to get an exploration badge or read a history plaque. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Placing unique rewards gathered through PvE action in a PvP zone does nothing to enhance PvP in that zone. All it does is introduce "cannon fodder" to the zone. The goal of PvP incentive should be to bring in more people looking for PvP. It should not be to bring in people who want to AVOID PvP so PvPers can take cheap shots at them. The logic behind the PvP motivation right now is flawed.
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Sure there are ways around PvP battles if you want badges, plaques or even temp powers.. Form an 8 man team and go in after whatever you need or go in at times when the zone is pretty much unoccupied but finding 7 players that ALL want the Weapons of Mass Destruction badge or Shivan or Nukes at the same time can be difficult especially for a casual player. My schedule allows me to hit those zones at 3AM or 6AM my time when hardly anyone is one line but not everyone can do that just to avoid a PvP attack. While I am willing to accept the risk there are other players that are not and denying them access to an accolade isn't right.
Just taking Born in Battle as an example it already requires a Villain to take 1 million HP of damage, complete a Instance mission (Exterminator) and battle a GM (Ghost of Scrapyard) then to get the accolade you have to risk attack in Warburg, Bloody Bay and Siren's Call just to get exploartion badges and history plaques? This is the COV equivilent of the Portal Jockey Accolade hero side and while defeating 13 Praetorian AVs is no easy task the rest of the requirements for that badge don't require a hero to go near a PvP zone. Actually aside from the serious badge hunters that have to have them all there is no accolade that forces any hero to enter PvP. Somehow that doesn't seem fair .. NOT taking anything away from what heroes need to do versus villains but we are talking Accolades that most players want regardless of BLUE or RED side and making one side risk attack by other players in PvP to obtain that increase in End and HP while the other doesn't isn't right.
A temp power is a temp power and I am a bit of a temp power junkie but they aren't a mandatory item anyone HAS to obtain. You want Amy's Ward?.. do a KHTF. You want Warwolves?.. run mission in Striga. You want Nukes or Shivan? .. Risk the confines of the zone they are in but I don't think it's fair to force a player that has no desire to PvP to enter those zones to obtain an accolade.
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I'm being argumentative here and not accepting this for a reason - For several, in fact. One is that there are already *only* four PVP zones. If we took the (unstated, but implied that "too few people are interested in it THIS way") argument that, well, we should take those away and rework them for this OTHER community - well, then why do we still have villainside? The same argument's been made that "nobody plays," it's "dead" (and "will be even more dead after GR") and the like. Is it *right* to take an area designated for one segment of the community away just because another segment wants it - and doesn't like that first segment?|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
So maybe the Arenas need to be tweaked to simulate that experience (adding maps of the current PvP zones). They could add a button to the Arena interface that just acted as a direct immediate port to whichever of the 4 maps you wanted to choose, irrespective of how many Players were already in it. Remove the Zone Event rewards and any badges from these maps and at the same time, the 'real' PvP zones could be reworked as PvE zones with the Zone Event rewards still present, but much reduced in strength to make the risk-vs-reward factor normalized.
Would that system be acceptable, Bill? You'd still be able to "pop in whenever I want, as well as not knowing from one minute to the next what's going to happen that we get in the zones.", plus you'd never meet anyone uninterested in PvPing with you. Eco. |
What if the RP and PVP communities were reversed, and we were talking about just taking Pocket D away from the RP community so the PVP community could enjoy a nice "bar brawl" atmosphere without those pesky RPers trying to "make peace" and interrupt fights?
I can tell you I'd be arguing loud and long to protect that area for the RPers to just come and go as they please (without having to go into AE, or an "arena," or anything similar.)
The other is that I have - more frequently than you'd probably think - had people who were "not interested in PVP" BECOME interested from doing so. Every single time? No. But often enough that THAT goal is still valid. Those people wouldn't go to an arena because, at the start, they *aren't* interested. (They often end up learning something about their class, as well, like the mastermind who was furious at me for attacking him when he "obviously didn't have a chance" - but wasn't even aware of bodyguard mode until I asked him why he wasn't using it to help himself survive.)
Quarrantining PVP to the arenas would eliminate that. And I wouldn't call that fair to anyone.
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The Proper Etiquette would be for the person who does not want to be involved in PvP to *stay out of the PvP zone*. To go into a zone that is specifically designed for PvP, and then expect the other players to ignore this just because it inconveniences *you* is rude. This is exactly why I stay out of PvP zones.
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Originally Posted by Amerikatt
Ultimately, it comes down to proper social interaction and etiquette. If someone asks a PvPer to leave them alone while they're trying to get an Exploration badge, then the PvPer should respect that. It takes only a few seconds to get to an Exploration badge, and then the PvEer is gone.
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I'm not sure i understand why you think that replicating the PvP zones in the arena would be 'taking them away' from PvPers, since what i'm suggesting would give you an identical experience as you currently have (and in fact, since there are more arenas than current entrances to the pvP Zones, there'd be more access too), but how about we rephrase it then? We leave the PvP zones as they are location-wise, but remove the Zone Event rewards and badges that currently entice PvEers to go there, and then we replicate the zones somewhere else as PvE-zones, with the Zone Event rewards and badges in place (with the temps nerfed to normalize them).|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I'm being argumentative here and not accepting this for a reason - For several, in fact. One is that there are already *only* four PVP zones. If we took the (unstated, but implied that "too few people are interested in it THIS way") argument that, well, we should take those away and rework them for this OTHER community - well, then why do we still have villainside? The same argument's been made that "nobody plays," it's "dead" (and "will be even more dead after GR") and the like. Is it *right* to take an area designated for one segment of the community away just because another segment wants it - and doesn't like that first segment?
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Essentially, all i'm trying to engineer is a situation where a non-PvPer has absolutely no reason at all, including his own silly desires for badges or Shivans, to go into a PvP zone, without negatively affecting the play experience of the PvPers.
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What if the RP and PVP communities were reversed, and we were talking about just taking Pocket D away from the RP community so the PVP community could enjoy a nice "bar brawl" atmosphere without those pesky RPers trying to "make peace" and interrupt fights? |
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I can tell you I'd be arguing loud and long to protect that area for the RPers to just come and go as they please (without having to go into AE, or an "arena," or anything similar.) |
I guess I could see how you might think that was ghettoising PvP somehow.
What about my earlier suggestion of simply having a choosable option at the normal entrance to the PvP Zones? You'd go to Atlas as normal to get to RV, and at the Dimensional portal, a popup would ask you to choose, just like we choose when Xones are full or at the train, for example. One version of RV would be identical to the one we have now, the other would have no PvP, a contact or 2, some PvE story arcs connected to the RV lore, and the badges would be gained via PvE methods.
What does that sound like to you?
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The other is that I have - more frequently than you'd probably think - had people who were "not interested in PVP" BECOME interested from doing so. Every single time? No. But often enough that THAT goal is still valid. Those people wouldn't go to an arena because, at the start, they *aren't* interested. (They often end up learning something about their class, as well, like the mastermind who was furious at me for attacking him when he "obviously didn't have a chance" - but wasn't even aware of bodyguard mode until I asked him why he wasn't using it to help himself survive.) Quarrantining PVP to the arenas would eliminate that. And I wouldn't call that fair to anyone. |
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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There's one question which I'd like PvPers to answer, actually, that might have a bearing on the 'segregation-good or bad?' debate: Do you enjoy killing PvEers who don't fight? if PvEers were'nt in the zone at all, if you never encountered a badger who sighed and took his hands off the keyboard and just waited to hosp, would that be a loss to your game?
Because if so, then I can see why PvPers wouldn't want Zone Event rewards moved somewhere else.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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QFT - although I still go into PvP zones for missions, temps, or badges or PvP when I feel like it. |
Originally Posted by LiquidX
The Proper Etiquette would be for the person who does not want to be involved in PvP to *stay out of the PvP zone*. To go into a zone that is specifically designed for PvP, and then expect the other players to ignore this just because it inconveniences *you* is rude. This is exactly why I stay out of PvP zones.
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For me, the PvP zones are to supposed to cause that uneasiness upon entering - am I going to be attacked? Someone following me? Scanning with the camera, etc.
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While you're asking that, don't forget that killing an enemy - *whether they fight back or not* - rewards the victor, and I don't mean in a personal, emotional way but in an (in-game-wise) tangible fashion:|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
There's one question which I'd like PvPers to answer, actually, that might have a bearing on the 'segregation-good or bad?' debate: Do you enjoy killing PvEers who don't fight? if PvEers were'nt in the zone at all, if you never encountered a badger who sighed and took his hands off the keyboard and just waited to hosp, would that be a loss to your game?
Because if so, then I can see why PvPers wouldn't want Zone Event rewards moved somewhere else. Eco. |
- Chance for (high-payoff, either in sale or use) PVP recipe
- XP
- Inf, IIRC
- Inspirations
- Bounty/Temporal Points
- Rep
Being defeated by a player, conversely, costs the defeated nothing but time. They don't get debt/lose XP/lose patrol XP, they don't lose inspirations or levels. They may lose rep, sure, but if we're looking at a "non PVPer," are they going to care?
So, are you asking "Do you get visceral pleasure out of the act," or "Is the various in game sorts of payoffs worth defeating someone not fighting back?" Because if the second is not fair/immoral/"wrong," somehow, we need to remove Controllers and Dominators from the game, as well as all stuns and similar status effects from player actions.
Basically, what I'm saying is if you're trying to get a "glimpse of the PVPer mindset," you'd have to do so in an environment where there are no rewards whatsoever - and I don't mean shivans/temp powers, but where you kill someone, they respawn, you go at it again, with absolutely nothing gained by either side - a situation which does not exist in this game.
Bill, I'm not sure what question you're responding to, but I'm pretty sure it's not the one being asked.
If I understand correctly, the question is: if your goal is PvP, do you prefer to play against people whose goal is also PvP, or do you want people present who (accurately) view PvP as an obstacle to their reason for being in the zone? Or more briefly, is PvP better when all participants are willing?
Note that it doesn't matter why they're willing, whether they enjoy it or are just being bribed to participate. The point is that they don't see PvP as counterproductive. Which, at the moment, it is.
@SPTrashcan
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I understand the question, but I don't think it's really addressing what the PVPer *gets* out of it. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Bill, I'm not sure what question you're responding to, but I'm pretty sure it's not the one being asked.
If I understand correctly, the question is: if your goal is PvP, do you prefer to play against people whose goal is also PvP, or do you want people present who (accurately) view PvP as an obstacle to their reason for being in the zone? Or more briefly, is PvP better when all participants are willing? |
If we took away *all* rewards related to defeats (while leaving the defeat at "you lose nothing,") do you really think the answer would be the same as it is in the current in game situation?
Look at the rewards. Yeah, you get a shivan (say,) or a temp power. I get a chance at a recipe that's running at several hundred million INF, an inspiration, further progress on my character (XP) - what's the real incentive for the PVPer NOT to attack? Even if I were "meh" about PVP but had a character I thought did decently, that's an incentive for me to go in and try to defeat others regardless of their purpose in the zone. If anything, it should be an incentive for you to try to attack me *back,* as not only do you get your shivan most likely, but could come away much richer.
It's something that I don't think can be ignored - which the people saying "Just leave them alone" are ignoring (or ignorant OF.) Both sides have a reward to lose.
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You have a point. In a vacuum, I'd give it a fair bit of weight. The fact that the conflict between PvP and PvE over zone use issues goes back to well before there were any rewards for PvP at all indicates to me that it's not the core of the issue. The question is not whether you have an incentive to attack - it's pretty well established that people who PvP have the motive and means to attack anyone they can. The question is whether I have any incentive to play the game you want to play once it's become clear that you're going to attack me.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I understand the question, but I don't think it's really addressing what the PVPer *gets* out of it.
If we took away *all* rewards related to defeats (while leaving the defeat at "you lose nothing,") do you really think the answer would be the same as it is in the current in game situation? Look at the rewards. Yeah, you get a shivan (say,) or a temp power. I get a chance at a recipe that's running at several hundred million INF, an inspiration, further progress on my character (XP) - what's the real incentive for the PVPer NOT to attack? Even if I were "meh" about PVP but had a character I thought did decently, that's an incentive for me to go in and try to defeat others regardless of their purpose in the zone. If anything, it should be an incentive for you to try to attack me *back,* as not only do you get your shivan most likely, but could come away much richer. |
Suppose I came to BB to get a Shivan, and you came to PvP. These things do not happen in a vacuum. I have something I want to do with that Shivan, almost certainly in PvE, almost certainly for a PvE reward. I came prepared for PvE. You, on the other hand, came prepared for PvP. You probably know what you're doing - at least more than I do - and you probably built for PvP. You have significant advantages if we fight. On top of that, I'm working toward completing a particular task, which requires a certain amount of my attention and resources. You have no such disadvantage. Given this scenario - which is not particularly outrageous - what are my chances of getting a Shivan if you attack me? What are my chances of getting PvP rewards if I attack you? What are my chances of getting a Shivan if I try to avoid you? And what are my chances if I log out, wait until you get bored and leave, and then come back in at some ungodly hour and thus avoid PvP altogether?
Blah blah blah counter-hypothetical. This thread is going nowhere that hundreds of threads haven't gone before. I'm just going to state my thesis, which I could swear is plainly intuitive but which apparently is actually from bizarro world, one more time and give up: if the developers want to encourage PvP in PvP zones, they should tie all PvP rewards to PvP play, not to PvE play in PvP zones.
@SPTrashcan
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About 5% of my gaming experience is PvP. I do it from time to time to break up the monotony or play with my podnas who are doing it. When I'm dropping pillboxes for the badge, it's annoying to get interrupted by a real PvPer, but I don't fault him for it at all. Sometimes, I'll turn and smack him good with a Seismic Smash and beat on him or sometimes I just leave. Usually, the latter works best because the LAST thing a PvPer wants is for you to leave the zone. Some ideas:
1) A PvP "phase" power. It makes you impervious to PvP attacks in PvP zones. It has a long cool down to keep players from using it in combat. Maybe it's a recipe drop or a real money item, doesn't matter.
2) A "white flag". You fly the white flag in the PvP zone and you can be attacked, but if you are killed while flying the white flag, the attacker loses all PvP rep and his drop rate gets turned off for 24 hours.
3) To bring in new PvPers... increase PvP drop rates for players who spend less time in the zone. I was tooling around in RV, totally wary of PvP, but giving it a try, when I got dropped a Gladiator's Strike Proc. Holy Moley! That was awesome. Since then, I go in much more often. Give new PvPers a good experience and they may come back.
4) PvP temp powers dropped in PvE. Little cool things like jet packs or oversized guns.
Just some thoughts.
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Did they take away the rewards timer when they added XP to PvP victories? Because, the last I had heard there was a ten minute period after defeating someone where defeating them again did indeed net them nothing, not even Reputation. And even then, there were people hunting down PvE players many many times within that window.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I understand the question, but I don't think it's really addressing what the PVPer *gets* out of it.
If we took away *all* rewards related to defeats (while leaving the defeat at "you lose nothing,") do you really think the answer would be the same as it is in the current in game situation? Look at the rewards. Yeah, you get a shivan (say,) or a temp power. I get a chance at a recipe that's running at several hundred million INF, an inspiration, further progress on my character (XP) - what's the real incentive for the PVPer NOT to attack? Even if I were "meh" about PVP but had a character I thought did decently, that's an incentive for me to go in and try to defeat others regardless of their purpose in the zone. If anything, it should be an incentive for you to try to attack me *back,* as not only do you get your shivan most likely, but could come away much richer. It's something that I don't think can be ignored - which the people saying "Just leave them alone" are ignoring (or ignorant OF.) Both sides have a reward to lose. |
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Except... there have always been rewards for PVP. Not the same magnitude of rewards, no, but they have always been there (bounty and rep.) |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
You have a point. In a vacuum, I'd give it a fair bit of weight. The fact that the conflict between PvP and PvE over zone use issues goes back to well before there were any rewards for PvP at all indicates to me that it's not the core of the issue. The question is not whether you have an incentive to attack - it's pretty well established that people who PvP have the motive and means to attack anyone they can. The question is whether I have any incentive to play the game you want to play once it's become clear that you're going to attack me.
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For you, the option of leaving, one way or another, has always been there. And yes, I'm going to make the same argument - by entering the zone, clicking "ok" on the dialog that explains it's a PVP zone and you may be attacked, by clicking through the "Talk to the Liason" dialog, and *staying in the zone,* I can only assume you're fully informed of and willing to take the risk of me attacking you.
If we had world PVP suddenly thrown on us (Aion-style rifts, say,) I could understand (and actually be behind) people saying "Hey, I don't want to PVP, I just want to finish my mission without interruption." But given you have to go out of your way and acknowledge ALL the PVP related stuff, I can only assume you're willing and are giving me permission to attack you. That permission is revoked when you leave the zone.
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| Suppose I came to BB to get a Shivan, and you came to PvP. These things do not happen in a vacuum. I have something I want to do with that Shivan, almost certainly in PvE, almost certainly for a PvE reward. I came prepared for PvE. You, on the other hand, came prepared for PvP. |
First echoes the above - you are informed of the fact you may be attacked, that you are entering a PVP zone. You're given an option to leave (even a 30 second safe window.) You've got to talk to the liason. You've got to acknowledge a dialog that you may be attacked, etc. Saying otherwise is like going to a movie theater, buying a ticket, popcorn, a drink, sitting down and then being startled that a movie is playing.
The other ("You came prepared for PVP") definition - that I'm on a PVP specific character, built towards or even optimized for, PVP, is purely an assumption on your part - and on all of my characters, an incorrect one. I play the same build in PVP and PVE. Now, yeah, others DO build for PVP, but "some" is not "all," or even, I'd hazard, "most."
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| You probably know what you're doing - at least more than I do - and you probably built for PvP. |
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| You have significant advantages if we fight. |
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| On top of that, I'm working toward completing a particular task, which requires a certain amount of my attention and resources. |
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| You have no such disadvantage. |
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| Given this scenario - which is not particularly outrageous - what are my chances of getting a Shivan if you attack me? |
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| What are my chances of getting PvP rewards if I attack you? |
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| What are my chances of getting a Shivan if I try to avoid you? |
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| And what are my chances if I log out, wait until you get bored and leave, and then come back in at some ungodly hour and thus avoid PvP altogether? |
Okay, I said I wouldn't do this, but here I go.
Memphis_Bill, you have proved that if you try hard enough, you can avoid the point I'm trying to make. Which is that PvE rewards can induce any number of PvE players to enter PvP zones, but they cannot induce them to stay for PvP - and in fact, the presence of PvP, by hindering them from achieving their goals in an acceptable timeframe, encourages them to leave.
It is utterly insane that the presence of PvP in a PvP zone reduces the population in a PvP zone, but that is exactly what is happening! There is no way you can possibly claim that PvP makes it easier to obtain the rewards that PvE players enter PvP zones to obtain, and it doesn't matter what other rewards are available for PvP because that's not what they came for!
ARGH. It is like arguing with a brick wall.
@SPTrashcan
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Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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MB, you are being quite evasive, it seems to me. I'm not arguing that when i enter a PvP zone for a shivan I know that I can be ganked. I know this. I'm telling you here that you DO have massive advantages over me when it comes to PvP, me personally. I'm rubbish at it, I'm not particularly interested in improving at it, and my toons are never built with it in mind. If I'm attacked, i simply wait (sometimes a bit impatiently, tbh) to die, hosp and leave.
If the IO recipes etc are the main thing for you, then of course it's definitely in your interest that players like myself are in the PvP zones. It's more desirable for you to have people like me in the zones as your targets than to have players who can offer more of a challenge to you be dint of being better at and willing to PvP.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Look, if you don't like my answers - which are not being given in snark, but completely bluntly - I can't help that. And even with this statement quoted above, you're ignoring something I've stated earlier - that that very exposure which "hinders" you has brought others around to participate in and even *enjoy* PVP.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Okay, I said I wouldn't do this, but here I go.
Memphis_Bill, you have proved that if you try hard enough, you can avoid the point I'm trying to make. Which is that PvE rewards can induce any number of PvE players to enter PvP zones, but they cannot induce them to stay for PvP - and in fact, the presence of PvP, by hindering them from achieving their goals in an acceptable timeframe, encourages them to leave. |
I don't know which you (generically) are. And if I ask, I might get an answer - even from you - which would otherwise turn out to be false. ("No, I hate PVP" versus, afterward, "Hey, this is actually kind of fun.")
You can't have just one result, ignoring the other that doesn't suit your point - and you're telling me ("me" representing "all PVPers," in this statement) that I should somehow know well in advance what the result of attacking you will be. I'm not psychic.
For all I know, you're leaving to get a more PVP-able character - leaving your team-build-heavy, low-ish offense Sonic Disruption character, say, to come back on a blaster. Or to get friends. Or any number of other things. For that matter, I don't know *you.* ("You" being "my target," again, not specific.) For all I know, the person I'm attacking is - to pick my usual example of a knowledgable PVPer - macskull. I don't know his global, I don't know his characters. He could have decided "Ya know, I haven't fought in BB with a level 17 character in forever, it could be a fun change" and proceed to wipe the floor with me. Or it could be Noobly McNooberson who isn't sure what these "enhancement" things he was getting from levels 1-3 are, but left them in his tray because they could be important, and is now cruising around the zone in his 42 Scrapper with no enhancements and weird powers.
Quote:
| ARGH. It is like arguing with a brick wall. |
once i got the badges on my main from pvp zones, i rarely if ever go into a pvp zone, even for shivans or nukes because i dislike pvp zones and nothing in the PVE game requires shivans or nukes, they do make certain tasks easier, but i rather just save up for a vanguard heavy through regular play
when i did go to the zones for badges, i usually only went if there were poeple there that were interested in the same thing as me, or if there was nobody else there, if there were poeple there i would go in and go about my business, then the instant i was killed by a pvper i would just leave till later.
i only had 1 case where i would go into a zone and then someone would come in and stalk me, EVERY time i went in the zone for like a month straight even if there was nobody in the zone, like 5 to 10 min after i went in the same guy would go in and routinly try to fight me, while i didnt mind the occasional pvp and it was a pvp zone, it did get annoying (especially when the zone had other villain pvpers in it who wanted to fight the guy but he ignored everyone and continued to go after me), that kind of behavior is annoying, but it is a pvp zone, so i didnt get that mad, i just left the zone and stayed out of the zone for a while (a month or so) and never had issues from him again
i think if they never attached badges to the little zone events i would prolly never go into the pvp zones to begin with because i can live without the temp powers (the badges i only get on my main, 90% of my toons have never been in a pvp zone)
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And as I was saying just in another post, you're making a big assumption on that. A HUGE assumption. None of mine are built to PVP. None of mine are built with it in mind. What *keeps* you from fighting back against - using the last character I was in a PVP zone on - a shoddily slotted lvl 17 Ice/Cold dom that runs out of END fast?|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I'm telling you here that you DO have massive advantages over me when it comes to PvP, me personally. I'm rubbish at it, I'm not particularly interested in improving at it, and my toons are never built with it in mind. If I'm attacked, i simply wait (sometimes a bit impatiently, tbh) to die, hosp and leave.
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Quote:
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If the IO recipes etc are the main thing for you, then of course it's definitely in your interest that players like myself are in the PvP zones. It's more desirable for you to have people like me in the zones as your targets than to have players who can offer more of a challenge to you be dint of being better at and willing to PvP. Eco. |
Seriously, I suppose I should be flattered that it's assumed I, and most other PVPers, have this godlike knowledge of everyone and perfect prescient view of cause/effect so we know who to attack, who'd just leave, etc, but it's really a poor assumption for you (generically) to make.
There are reward structures that make rewards easier to obtain as more people participate. The RWZ zone event makes it drastically easier to obtain Heavies when lots of people play the zone game. PvP zones have the exact opposite system.
This.
Is.
Dumb.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)