PvP and Badge Hunting Just Don't Mix
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-03-19 20:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I hear you. Actually I made the same "crazy" suggestion a short time and a few posts ago. In this thread even. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I made the crazy suggestion at one point that we could give people alt builds solely for PvP, and fill them with free PvP-only enhancements and special enhancements that could only be earned by PvP and slotted in PvP builds. That one went over like a lead balloon...
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Weird, when i zone in it says:|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
And what's the first thing that you encounter when you enter these PvP Zones? A contact who tells you about the cool content. An NPC contact, offering PvE 'missions'.
Eco. |
" You are now entering a PvP area and can be attacked by other players. "
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I can tell that the PvP community is in terrible shape because it took 17 hours and 20 minutes for this rebuttal to be made. Why, back in the day there'd be 5 or 6 posts saying this by now, probably with additional embellishment and emphasis.|
Originally Posted by Terror1
Weird, when i zone in it says:
" You are now entering a PvP area and can be attacked by other players. " |
More seriously: this is a true fact. It is also a true fact that when you go look for an NPC to tell you what to do here, as you may be accustomed to, you will find a guy who tells you to go do some PvE stuff. This is true of BB, WB, and RV. Only in SC does the zone game tie rewards directly to attacking an opposing player character - and in order to use these rewards, you also have to play the PvE zone control minigame. In my personal opinion, SC is probably the closest to ideal: there are PvE aspects to the zone game, but if you want to get the most out of it you will hunt down your bounty target.
I'd like to say a few non-negative words about I13 now. Let me preface this by stating once again that the changes as implemented were not the ones I would have wished for, and many aspects of the changes were ill-considered and counterproductive. That said: before I13, PvP was a low-scoring game. When players of equal skill and strategy played to win, the resulting number of kills was in the single digits. Player characters in CoH can be easily made to be very tough, especially when supporting each other. Powerful heals and buffs, extreme movement speeds, and evasion powers such as phases and cages meant that most engagements would end with both parties escaping alive. As long as PvP had no significant rewards attached, this was a neutral state of affairs, no better or worse than any other. However, if you want to introduce a reward system based on getting kills, as the devs did want to do, this becomes something of an issue! When looked at in this way, the reductions in mobility, mitigation, and healing, the removal of complete mez protection, and the addition of high damage to what had previously been primarily mez abilities makes some degree of sense; the idea was to create a higher-scoring game, where most engagements end in someone dying.
Unfortunately, I13 was clumsily handled; I don't think the devs ever made this goal explicit, and the implementation was extremely ambiguous in its intent and heavy-handed in its execution. I'm not sure how the PvP community of the time would have reacted if the devs had come to them and candidly asked how the existing system could be changed to make it more lethal, and honestly I'm not sure if they could have come up with anything more satisfactory than what I13 became, since higher lethality would necessarily have meant more damage, more mez, less evasion, less mobility, and less benefit from healing and mitigation stacking somehow.
But it would have been less of a PR nightmare to be sure.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
This is getting off-topic, but the i13 changes make total sense to me in light of the complaints that were being made about PvP at the time:
"I die before I can react, that's no fun."
"There is no way to keep the team squishies from being burst down."
"How did that melee hit me from across the zone?"
"Everyone just hits once and runs, this doesn't feel like a comic book."
"I have to change my build to one that sucks in PvE."
"Why should I PvP when there are no PvE rewards?"
"I hate Stalkers!"
"There's nobody to fight except the same old faces!"
We convinced the Devs that if there was an influx of warm bodies into PvP, it would be worth their money and time. In order to get new people in, they lowered the bar (they thought). It became easier to survive long enough to strike back and hopefully feel like you have a chance. Multiple builds so you can build for PvP without nerfing PvE. The list goes on.
I admit that I certainly did not anticipate the reaction to the changes being what it was as a player. To me, as a casual occaisional PvPer, it seemed like a dream come true at the time.
But there were two major camps: the "make PvP more fun for hardcore PvPers who like things how they are, but want more balance" camp versus the "make PvP more fun for casual players so there will be more PvP camp".
In retrospect, I'm not sure pleasing either camp at the expense of the other was aviable proposition, and I'm not sure there was a way to please both.
So, I can understand if the Devs are taking their time with the next promised round of changes, regardless of how embarassed they might be over base raiding and the CoP Trial.
In fact, it begs the question: do the PvPers actually want the Devs to make more changes to PvP, even if it were just to remove non--PvP badges from the zones?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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You gain 1 rep for a kill whose rep is lower, the same, or only a bit higher than yours. You get 6 rep if their rep is 20 or more above yours.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The last badge is for 400 rep......and you get 1 rep per kill if their rep is lower than you. I've never gotten more than 6 for a kill, and that was bonus rep.
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| Possible solution: Remove the degradation of the rep badges. Still lose rep if you lose a fight, |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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i just added the arrows but thats what most of the liaisons says afaik.
| Greetings, Jurgen Funnybiscuit. I am the Arachnos Liaison for the Free-Fire PvP zone of Warburg. Warburg is a Player Vs. Player zone. It is also free-fire, meaning that anyone can attack anyone else outside of the safe areas, whether they are heroes or villains. Warburg is VERY dangerous, and if you go there, you almost certainly will be attacked by other people. Do not enter Warburg unless you are willing to engage in Player Vs. Player combat . If you are interested in entering Warburg, you may do so by speaking to the Pilot behind me. Once there, you may speak with Warzone Operative Braun to get missions inside the zone. He can be found within the safe area. Braun's missions will take place in a PvP zone. -------------->Don't accept them if you are not willing to experience Player versus Player content..<------------ |
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Yeah yeah, you know what I mean. I won't bother repeating ST's point, which is what I was referring to.|
Originally Posted by Terror1
Weird, when i zone in it says:
" You are now entering a PvP area and can be attacked by other players. " |
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
It is also a true fact that when you go look for an NPC to tell you what to do here, as you may be accustomed to, you will find a guy who tells you to go do some PvE stuff. This is true of BB, WB, and RV.
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MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Yeah yeah, you know what I mean. I won't bother repeating ST's point, which is what I was referring to.
Eco. |
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| Don't accept them if you are not willing to experience Player versus Player content. |
I roleplay when i'm in PVP zones.
I have to arrest the villains and defeat the heroes! I have to stop my enemies from getting Shivans, collect bounties on my rivals, and stop my enemies taking over pillboxes. (The future depends on it!) I can't stand by and let anyone, hero or villain, get nuclear weapons...think of the trouble it would cause!
I find it annoying when people grief my RPVP with OOC requests to stop attacking them. They often call me expletives in broadcast and send me loads of abusive tells. I don't know why they are so rude to me. It's completely unprovoked, childish, and uncalled for.
...if anything. It makes me doubly sure to keep attacking.
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You conveniently forget to mention what the point of that "PVE stuff" does.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Yeah yeah, you know what I mean. I won't bother repeating ST's point, which is what I was referring to.
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It changes zone wide buffs or debuffs for the players. It directly affects PVP. Go ahead, run one of the missions with someone, and then before they click the last glowie or kill the last group, go outside. Check out your buffs or debuffs (you can't see what happens to the other side, though.) There's a reason the entire zone is told someone has completed a mission.
So, while you might not be directly fighting another player, you're still PVPing. And you're having an effect on everyone, even people who may not be in the zone yet.
Oh, and this.
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Farming for that badge was awful. I don't think we finished, and of course my friends rep is definitely back to zero now. Getting that badge by straight PvP seems like it would be a nightmare to me |
(And yes, I know we're about to get the usual self serving "I farmed and met the specific numerical requirements even though I hate pvp, I earned it" crap. No.)
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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Actually, I was discussing the in-zone minigames, but if you want to talk about the door missions, the case is even worse. Yes, they have a global effect on the zone PvP. They also grant experience, inf, and drops, and last I heard they do so at better than usual rates. So, once again, the inducements are there for very PvEish content - in this case in an instanced area where even the threat of PvP is absent. And this provides further inducement to avoid direct combat with other players while in the shared zone: why waste time on that when there's XP/inf/drops to be made? Not that you ever have to, since the 30 second PvP immunity grace period is frequently more than enough time to get from one door mission to the next.|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
You conveniently forget to mention what the point of that "PVE stuff" does.
It changes zone wide buffs or debuffs for the players. It directly affects PVP. Go ahead, run one of the missions with someone, and then before they click the last glowie or kill the last group, go outside. Check out your buffs or debuffs (you can't see what happens to the other side, though.) There's a reason the entire zone is told someone has completed a mission. So, while you might not be directly fighting another player, you're still PVPing. And you're having an effect on everyone, even people who may not be in the zone yet. |
What I'm getting at here is that while the zones are clearly and repeatedly labeled PvP zones, and PvP is indeed possible in the zone, there are many activities in the zone that grant consistent, desirable rewards yet do not actually require you to ever attack another player-controlled character, and indeed encourage you to treat anyone who is attacking you as an obstacle to getting the most out of your time. And once again I say: this is an awfully strange way to design a PvP zone.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
The PvP zone missions give a better completion bonus but the drop rates, etc. are the same as any other door mission. A few years ago they put in a diminishing amount on the completion bonuses if within 30 minutes of each other IIRC.
I think where there is a real disconnect on the PvP zones is your view of them is more arena like. The devs gave us the arena (Issue 4). Then later that year we got CoV with these PvP zones (Issue 6).
There is such a mix of PvE and PvP that it seems pretty clear they wanted the zones to feature that mix.
In Sirens Call you get the PvE critters involved in the control of it which people can join to help their side. This is the ultimate PvP and PvE mix you could get it would seem to me.
So you may disagree with what the devs did but I think it is because you are placing your view of what the zones ought to be over what their views actually are. It seems pretty clear they wanted these hybrid zones.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Regardless of what the Devs intended when designing PvP zones, I think we can all agree that the intent is not being acheived.
Thus a redesign is in order.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Except they changed things so you couldn't just call a contact and zip to the next one as easily within that time period. You HAVE to traverse the zone, talk to the contact, and get to the next mission. The plan being that you would be able to be attacked. (Gee, you're affecting the zone, why would they want you to be able to be attacked. Hmmm.) |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Actually, I was discussing the in-zone minigames, but if you want to talk about the door missions, the case is even worse. Yes, they have a global effect on the zone PvP. They also grant experience, inf, and drops, and last I heard they do so at better than usual rates. So, once again, the inducements are there for very PvEish content - in this case in an instanced area where even the threat of PvP is absent. And this provides further inducement to avoid direct combat with other players while in the shared zone: why waste time on that when there's XP/inf/drops to be made? Not that you ever have to, since the 30 second PvP immunity grace period is frequently more than enough time to get from one door mission to the next.
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And why are the bonuses higher every 30 minutes? For the exact same reason the shivans and nukes are as good as they are. You have to risk PVP.
Why not make PVP 100% mandatory? What if nobody IS in the zone? Why have things that are completely unable to be finished by anybody in that fashion? I think they knew how irritating and frustrating that would be well in advance (or that it would just be subverted if there was a badge related to it) and made the decision not to put in that requirement. The risk itself is what leads to the higher reward.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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Given enough time, resources, etc. certainly.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Regardless of what the Devs intended when designing PvP zones, I think we can all agree that the intent is not being acheived.
Thus a redesign is in order. |
However it seemed rather apparent before we even had PvP so many people did not want it that unless their intent was for there to be some incredibly small amount of users of it adding PvP and all changes since then have failed.
The PvP users are becoming an increasingly shrinking segment of the players. At some point they need to stop spending time breaking it more or just spend the time to remove it.
Personally I'd prefer they stop wasting any time on it and leave it as is and put the time and effort to revamping old content that needs it which would benefit far more players.
If they were going to spend any time on it I would suggest either returning it to pre-I13 or crafting the cross-server PvP solution. Any other change I don't see being any help at all.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I absolutely disagree with what the devs did, and I do place my view of what the zones should be over what they actually are - or I wouldn't suggest that they be changed! It is in fact quite clear that they wanted a hybrid PvP/PvE zone. My position is that any such zone is a flat-out terrible idea in the first place. |
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
So you may disagree with what the devs did but I think it is because you are placing your view of what the zones ought to be over what their views actually are. It seems pretty clear they wanted these hybrid zones.
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I can follow their reasoning and imagine their expectations as to what would happen: people come to PvP, and play PvE minigames for rewards until the opportunity for PvP arises at which time they switch happily to PvPing. The underlying assumption is that PvE is there to give you a reason to come to and stick around in the zone until someone shows up and you can get down to the real reason you came. What they probably did not expect (although they easily could have) was that people would come with the explicit goal of reaping all the PvE rewards they could and see the introduction of actual PvPing as an unwelcome intrusion on their activities. This is the inevitable consequence of placing rewards that can be obtained cooperatively in a context that allows and is intended to encourage competition. Whether it is irrational, poor sportsmanship, carebearism etc. does not actually matter; it always happens and you can't design your game around the expectation that people will suddenly behave in a different manner than they always have before.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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I don't see the relevance of this argument. Here's a translation, as I'm hearing it:|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
The PvP zone missions give a better completion bonus but the drop rates, etc. are the same as any other door mission. A few years ago they put in a diminishing amount on the completion bonuses if within 30 minutes of each other IIRC.
I think where there is a real disconnect on the PvP zones is your view of them is more arena like. The devs gave us the arena (Issue 4). Then later that year we got CoV with these PvP zones (Issue 6). There is such a mix of PvE and PvP that it seems pretty clear they wanted the zones to feature that mix. In Sirens Call you get the PvE critters involved in the control of it which people can join to help their side. This is the ultimate PvP and PvE mix you could get it would seem to me. So you may disagree with what the devs did but I think it is because you are placing your view of what the zones ought to be over what their views actually are. It seems pretty clear they wanted these hybrid zones. |
"Years ago the devs made design choices that didn't realize their intended outcomes, and that led to perverse outcomes. Perverse outcomes occurred because the PvP zones were set up such that some players actively sought to engage in PvP, while others actively sought to avoid it; inconsistency in player objectives led to conflict and anger between players on a regular basis. Even though players routinely question dev decisions about a host of other issues, if it is pointed out that "dev intentions were <fill in the blank> about this specific set of issues, then conversation should stop at that point."
Which of the following statements do you believe are untrue?
1. These decisions you're defending were made a long time ago and we can safely conclude that they didn't have their desired effect.
2. If you put people together who have incompatible objectives, then conflict and anger is a predictable result.
You could re-frame statement 1 as "These were not the greatest decisions in the history of mankind, so why should they be showed the same reverence as the 10 commandments?" You could re-frame statement 2 as "If you actually want PvP to thrive, why are you so determined to keep a reliable, predictable mechanism for generating discontent in place?"
QUICK! Get those PvP AV Hunt badges now! Without stepping into a PvP Zone! Join the events!
And you thought the devs didn't care. 
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
To end this thread...it can be argeed tht to make everyone happy...move the badges out of the pvp zones and/or change the requirments for the badges and let badgers be badgers and pvpers be pvpers..
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That doesn't make me happy at all. I'm perfectly fine with how it's setup now, makes it riskier, so makes it more fun. I don't want it changed.
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Originally Posted by Dr_HR
To end this thread...it can be argeed tht to make everyone happy...move the badges out of the pvp zones and/or change the requirments for the badges and let badgers be badgers and pvpers be pvpers..
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Actually, better idea: The badgers can just get over it, and deal with the fact that, god forbid, there may be badges in the game that contain requirements that are inconvenient to them.
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Originally Posted by Dr_HR
To end this thread...it can be argeed tht to make everyone happy...move the badges out of the pvp zones and/or change the requirments for the badges and let badgers be badgers and pvpers be pvpers..
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If the hybrid PvE/PvP zones didn't exist....we would never get ANY new PvPers. If you ask someone who does not play the game what they heard about CoH PvP they will most likely tell you it is a joke. So, we are very unlikely to get any PvPers migrating from other games, they'll either stay where they are, or go somewhere with better PvP. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I absolutely disagree with what the devs did, and I do place my view of what the zones should be over what they actually are - or I wouldn't suggest that they be changed! It is in fact quite clear that they wanted a hybrid PvP/PvE zone. My position is that any such zone is a flat-out terrible idea in the first place.
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I first got into PvP in Siren's Call. I went in to run some of the door missions in there between contacts and discovered that I actually enjoyed PvP when I got involved in a rolling battle that had sprung up while I was in a mission. If hybrid PvE/PvP zones didn't exist, I likely never would have tried it.
That's why they shouldn't be changed:
Players like me that might find out they enjoy PvP that never thought about it until they found themselves in a PvP situation. Take away the hybrid zones and the PvP population will dwindle as PvP veterans leave for greener pastures and no new PvPers come along because they were never exposed to it, and were unlikely to seek it out on their own. Sure, players that already KNOW they don't like PvP get annoyed by it, but is that a good enough reason to remove the opportunity for people to try it who haven't formed an opinion yet?
Remove the hybrid zones and you have: Non-PvPers and Competetive PvPers. It would remove the middle ground of the "casual PvPer" (like me). You think it's hard to learn in an open zone? Try going into the arena with a competitive PvPer. I guarantee if you have little or no PvP experience you will get destroyed. In an arena match, most PvPers show no mercy at all, but in a zone with few or no people around they're more likely to show a newbie the ropes. Or a casual PvPer like me will go a few rounds and give people a chance to figure stuff out.
If you remove the hybrid zones you will pretty much completely kill PvP in this game as no new blood will ever get introduced to it. It's hard to develop a passion for something when your first experience is getting crushed by the equivalent of professionals in it. It's discouraging to get destroyed in seconds flat over and over again. The open zones give people more of a chance to do something, especially if they wander in while there is something actually going on.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Claws, I agree that the problem the zones try to solve is real, but I don't necessarily agree that the zones are the best solution to the problem. The question for me is whether the zones do more to promote PvP or discourage it. Frankly, neither one of us has enough information to answer that conclusively - for you, it worked; for me, it didn't; we can find anecdotes going either way. Obviously I believe the zones do more harm than good, and I have reasons for that belief, but I don't have hard data and I never will.
I could talk about ways that you could get me interested in PvP, that don't have the drawbacks that the zones as implemented have. But again, I can't speak for anyone else.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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There's two things combined to give you an erroneous conception here. One, I should have been clearer - We DIDN'T finish it, because it was sop utterly boring and ridiculously pointless.|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
That badge is supposed to be gotten through PVP. not farming. But what do we have? A "gotta get it" pokemon mentality. I see that badge now and I just assume it's farmed, as opposed to what it should be, a sign someone's PVPed enough or is good enough to have earned 400 rep. If PVP's a nightmare to you, what business do you have with that badge?
(And yes, I know we're about to get the usual self serving "I farmed and met the specific numerical requirements even though I hate pvp, I earned it" crap. No.) |
And the other is that you're unable to see where i'm coming from. I consider myself a badger, and to some extent i will farm for badges (hunting mobs lower than my sec level for example), but after a certain point the tedium outweighs anything i get from the badge. So no, I don't have a 'gotta get em all' mentality. 'I gotta get some' is the way I view it.
You can spin 'i only get my pvP badges through 'true' PvP' anyway you like, but if I rounded up a hundred players who were willing to congregate in WB and just stand there AFK whilst you defeated them all one by one, and you were happy to do this, then you'd be farming for it too.
And every time you defeat me in a PvP zone, that's what you're doing. If you deny this, spend some time in RV this week - I'm there off and on farming for the heavy badge. I'm on my MrCaptainMan toon, and I won't fight back if I'm attacked. Come and farm me for rep.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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When is the last time a Banished Pantheon mask fled the zone you were in, preventing you from getting badge credit for it? PvEers do that all the time.....there goes my player defeats badge. PvP zones are the ONLY place you can get that badge, I'm pretty sure arena defeats don't count.
What defeat badge starts you over from zero if you stop working on it? Only one, the PvP Rep badge. You can stop killing BP masks and pick it up right where you left off. If I stop killing players, I have to start over from scratch, because I LOSE credit toward the badge the longer I go without killing a player.
Possible solution: Remove the degradation of the rep badges. Still lose rep if you lose a fight, but if you want to do something else for a while you won't have it draining away. As it stands now, if you want the 400 rep badge you have to do nothing but PvP until you get it.......and I don't have the time to commit to that.
The 400 rep badge was not easy to get when people were still PvPing. I used to switch between SC and RV to max targets and to min downtime. Imagining I had to earn it within the current PvP rules is ... unpleasant. Actually I don't think it would even be possible without changing my whole build (Storm/Energy Defender - which was good enough to win more than 50% of my fair fights yes, sometimes I picked my targets well and carefully timed my attacks to max my kill chance which wasn't always fair but after the changes my chances to win a PvP fight with the same build are close to zero. And I'm not going to invest time and billions of influence in a secondary build for something that isn't fun anymore.) And even then the rep decay was uncool. Actually I never liked the idea behind rep decay and it's something that should be changed, imho.