PvP and Badge Hunting Just Don't Mix

Can you stop making generalities, please. I'm a PvEer who'd be quite happy to see Shivans and Nukes only obtainable through direct PvPing, as long as they were then only usable on Players. I'm a badger too, but after a short while trying to farm a rep badge, I happily gave up any desire to have it lol, so PvP-only badges wouldn't faze me one bit.

Eco.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Bolded the part that I've often thought, too.

Eco.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

You're leaving out an important point here.

You said at one point that the PvPer has the zone's intent on his side, while the PvEer has the zone's reward structure on his side.

That's not true. The reward structure is on the PvPer's side as well.

How, you ask?

How do you get Shivans? You travel around the zone clicking on meteors for the shard you need to combine with the other 5, then you defeat a few turrets to unlock another clicky.

There's an easier way......Let someone else do the legwork and then kill them for the shards after they take out the turrets. And, voila! You just obtained a PvE reward through PvP.

Pretty simple really. If we weren't supposed to do that, it wouldn't even be possible to do. There are only 2 zones in the game where you can take something away from someone against their will....and they are PvP zones. Sounds to me like the intent was to fight over the shards and codes....which are the reward structure for those zones.

So, if you really get down to it, both the intent AND reward structure are on the PvPer's side in those 2 zones.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Without some one participating in the zones PVE aspect though, there are no codes or shards to receive upon defeating some one.

That doesn't refute my point. This entire argument has assumed that there IS someone doing the PvE aspect. Otherwise, there would be no argument. And yes, it's an argument, it ceased being a debate about 7 pages ago.

My point is: It is possible for a PvPer to acquire Shivans and nukes by doing nothing but PvP.

Not only can they prevent someone from gaining a PvE reward....they can gain it for themselves in the process by killing them and taking their stuff.

That's what I meant about the intent and reward structure both being on the PvPer's side.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

But if there are no PvEer's then there isn't anything for them to take, therefore the whole system of reward is based upon PvE.

It's not really a PvP reward system if it still rewards with out any PvP.

I have obtained Shivan shards dozens of times. I've NEVER been killed by anyone AFTER defeating the turrets. On a few occasions I've been killed WHILE fighting the turrets, leading me to believe that this particular PvE reward is irrelevbant to the PvPer.

Mostly in BB, the occasions I've been attacked have been during the runaraound to get each shard sample before heading to the firebase.

Eco.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

That would be an assumption, and not a sound one either.

If that PvPer is not slumming in BB at level 50, they still have leveling to do, in which case a Shivan would probably come in handy on occasion.

I PvP once in a while, but I play the game for the PvE first and foremost.

That's the mistake the anti-PvP crowd keeps making: Assuming that the PvPers do not care about the rest of the game and only want to make them miserable in PvP zones.

Not every PvPer that attacks you is going to be a rabid noob-ganking sociopath who just wants a chuckle at your expense. A lot of them are people that you would enjoy teaming with in a non-PvP setting.

Like me. I don't ask permission before I attack someone any more than I ask a Hellion for permission to attack them. I'm pretty ruthless in PvP, but I'm a decent guy to team with in the rest of the game. But, to an anti-PvPer that I attack I'm forever a "dirty, cheapshotting PvPer" and they never give me a chance on a team. I've had people kick me from teams before because I showed up on their player notes as someone who attacked them in a PvP zone 6 months prior. This was before a single mission was ever run and they had no idea what kind of teammate I was going to be. They just formed an opinion because I happened to attack them one time....I didn't even remember them.

But it makes it easier for the anti-PvP crowd to vilify the PvPers if they paint them as all being rude, mean, and petty.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

See if someone had said that back when I asked the question instead of a one line answer of 'we use the arena's for that' no other explanation given nor any comparrisons!

What, I'm not freaking psychic, I can't guess what they guy meant from his one line answer. Notice how I never complained about the RV PvP mechanics, because I KNOW that RV is basically 'domination mode' style PvP that is common to FPS games, it makes sense, I did complain about the overpowered AVs/Heroes being the only way to get badges as they're a decidedly PvE mechanic.

However the Bloody bay PvP game make little to no sense, I could understand if it was along the lines of 'capture the enemy intelligence' 'defend and hold' 'payload delivery' or the like but they're not, they're about clicking on things and then defeating a NPC guarded gun emplacement.

Warburg is 'sort of' a style of 'capture the flag' but I'd much rather prefer they strip the scientists being surrounded by freaking massive mobs of Arachnoids, seriously, why are the mobs there so bloody big?

I honestly don't mind your standard PvP mechanics, WoW does them really well with Battlegrounds or the Siege event every three hours.

Actually I think that's probably the problem with the PvP zones, in most other games the PvP zones are instanced for groups of opposing players like the WoW Battlegrounds, heck Alterac valley is 'kill the enemy generals' PvE mechanic but it works because it's GEARED towards PvP, it's the old 'defend the VIP' scenario. The only time you go into a PvP battleground is when you're good and ready to PvP or when the Siege comes in does the zone actually 'gear up' and begin to be about the event.

Here, however, the zones are always open persistant zones...I'm not sure if that's a clever Idea (low numbers of PvPers would mean either completely one sided or empty instances spawned for one or two people at time) or a bad one at the moment (problems we're seeing now).

Apart from RV none of the other events are really geared towards natural PvP interaction in the same kind of way in my opinion.

Also I use to PvP, heck I even took part in the recent RPPvP event that was run on Union.

Besides thanks to a wonky sleeping schedule it means I can just go into the zones at 4am and grab the shivans/nukes then...

This is true if and only of you define PvP as the use of powers directly against a player. One could argue that PvP is anytime you compete against another player, which can occur even if you run away from your opponent. Evasion is part of the game in which you get your reward whilst preventing the other player from getting theirs, and as such one could be said to be engaged in PvP the second they set foot in a PvP zone regardless of whether or not they ever see another player.

Is having 4 PvP zones with minor content too much to ask for and unfair to PvEers?

What's with all this PvE only content/reward rubbish anyway? A reward is a reward. Accos (diminished in pvp) and shivans and whatever all work in both PvE and PvP right?

If anyone deserves to be complaining here it should be all the PvPers who have to go through the entire PvE process over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in order to be able to PvP.

PvP was changed for PvEers and for "PvP" IO rewards that have PvE bonuses tied to them.

You PvEers don't have to deal with pvp suppression, heal decay, diminishing returns, mez resistance only, and all your powers and enhancements function normally in your precious little (99% of this game) PvE land.

There is nothing in PvP that anyone "needs" in PvE to be able to play this game.

PvP has some major unfixed bugs lingering (along with other major issues) while the Dev team spends more time making animated tails and such.

Pound for pound PvE gets much more Dev attention.

Too many spoiled PvEers is the real problem.

Originally Posted by Black_Barrier Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...

Ah, but now even non-PvP'ers may disagree with you. I sure as hell do. I like the Shivans and missiles exactly the way they are. If I have to risk getting attacked and deal with different combat rules to get them, I'm absolutely fine with that.

I do NOT want them nerfed and made available by other means - UNLESS they keep the 'good versions' available in the PvP zones.

Why?

The current version rewards the same whether you PVP or not, hell it rewards the same if you're the only person in the zone.

Amusement given how empty the zones are EU side.

This to be fair...although I'm 'complaining' about PvE mixed with the PvP the truth of the matter is that on the EU side...you're going to have little to no resistance getting the shivans/nukes unless it's prime time on a saturday...and even then it may only be the nukes, on the EU servers PvP is deader than a dead thing who died several thousand years ago.

This would result in PvPers having Shivans and nukes , unless they could save up for IOs too, I guess, and it would reduce the amount of Shivans and nukes in the PvE-only community. Not eliminate, because people would just team up with an SG-mate using an opposing faction's toon and farm the merits.

This still wouldn't incentivise the significant proportion of the playerbase for whom NOTHING will ever make them enthiusiastic about PvP.

I'd be willing to bet that it would also reduce the numbers of 'cheap kills' that the PvP community gets at present from PvEers going for these things.

It's my solid belief that PvPers like things the way they are because they like a free lunch.

Eco.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

So how come no PvPers ever let me 'do all the work', as was suggested up above, and then kill me after I've killed the turrets? It is an assumption, you're right, but I'm just basing it on my own experience. I wonder how many PvP-focussed players can say they always have Shivans and nukes?

I am honestly perplexed as to why you're surprised by this, but I guess it illustrates the total disconnect in understanding between the two sides. You don't even remember him, just like you don't remember a hellion you defeated last month. But HE remembers you. If you're ruthless, then I guess it doesn't matter to you wether or not he fought back, or what he was doing. You see the 'fight' as another mob defeated. He may remember it as an annoying, irritating, boring, depressing waste of time. Perhaps he'd been carefully leading the scientists through WB, and was about to get the last code.

It doesn't matter wether or not he's justified in feeling aggreived by your actions. You don't have to agree with it, but you should understand it. Then you won't be upset when you're kicked form teams by people you've defeated in PvP before. Think of it as an extension of the fight lol.

I have met pleasant, polite, helpful PvPers. I've been assisted by a stalker in getting the turrets down for a Shivan on the agreement that afterwards I'd return from the Hero base and let him kill me (he was probably as surprised to find me return as I was that he agreed to it in the first place), I've had a brute wait for me to get a heavy before killing me while I stood there (which actually helps get the heavies faster), I've met villains in WB who were going for nukes themselves who said 'hi' and then stayed away from me. The problem is, all these experiences came across as pleasant for me because I can't stand PvPing and so my aims at the time were to avoid PvP.

The PvE rewards in the PvP zones DO NOT do what they're supposed to very efficiently. They're a lure for noobs, but only to the zone; not to PvP.

Eco.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Imagine if those PvP merits mentioned earlier were also granted per time spent in a PvP zone without getting defeated and without being within range of a drone. They'd be farmed by PvEers who'd go to the zones and hide in weird places, doing their utmost to avoid any PvP, and the PvP community would be up in arms about this 'cheating'.

But this is exactly what happens now with Shivans and nukes. I find it much easoer to get them by utilising timezone differences to avoid PvP. If this is winning at PvP, then I'll start announcing my victories in broadcast just before I leave lol.

Eco.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

This is a terrible generalization and only reflects a small minority of PvP participants. The majority just want a thinking opponent, regardless if the "lunch" comes free or not. It's not like one goes actively seeking an opponent who doesn't fight back, but rather just another fight.

The equivalent would be like saying PvE'ers liked the old AE exploits because it was like a free 50. Maybe a few vocal ones did, but they were far from the majority.

I NEVER fight back. I've never experienced a PvPer attack me, and stop before defeating me because I wasn't providing any kind of 'thinking' challenge.

"But there's no way to tell!" PvPers cry. "I can't risk pausing in case you're the God of PvP and you pwn me!"

Yet PvPers rail aginst any kind of flagging system, which would let them know if their opponents were 'thinking' or not.

Also, if it's more important that the opponent be simply a thinking being and that the 'actively fighting' part is hjust a bonus, that sound like PvPers just like to screw with people.

Eco.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

The vast majority of COX players ignore the PvP zones entirely, and never even enter them. The ones who never enter the PvP zones have made their feelings about being in a PvP environment abundantly clear. Of those who enter the PvP zones, many do so only to get rewards for PvE purposes, and being attacked by PvPers is nothing more than a hindrance to them, a potential source of delay and irritation.

These observations lead me to ask a few questions:

1. Why should the devs continue to spend large amounts of resources on what amounts to a niche activity, one that has obviously, and repeatedly, been rejected as "not fun" by the vast majority of COX players?

2. Given that the customer base is pretty much the same now as one year ago, why are all of us still being pestered by PvP contacts repeatedly with every alt we make? Why does the response "I've already said many times that I won't go out on a date with you, so would you stop pestering me already" not elicit an empathetic response from the devs?

3. Who is it who has the misplaced sense of entitlement here?

I'll go ahead and answer the 3rd question. The near microscopic, but extremely vocal community engaging in PvP has no business trying to continue to tie access to certain PvE rewards to entering PvP zones, not when about 95% to 98% of the community has voted with their feet on having that kind of experience. If those rewards can in some way add to the fun of those who have repeatedly demonstrated, over the years, that they would rather chew off their own arm than enter a PvP zone, then re-balance the difficulty/risk/reward ratio for those PvE goodies currently available only in PvP zones, as appropriate, and spread the love around.

On a related point, those who engage in PvP are not the least bit shy about asking for a multitude of changes to the game, regarding a host of issues. And yet, curiously, about the issue being debated in this thread, the intent and design choices of the devs should be regarded as sacrosanct; those who disagree with that line of reasoning are being represented as adopting an a priori illegitimate position because of decisions made years ago, decisions that didn't have the desired effect of making PvP more popular--in fact, I would argue they had the opposite effect--and that promote conflict and ill will between players.

To shamelessly use a turn of phrase from BillZBubba;
I don't posses enough Hell No to fully answer that.

That basically means that anyone wanting to try and get Shivans and Nukes EU side is screwed, unless they get friends to log in on the other side to be killed for the merits. Which basically makes the 'Merits' a sort of farm token. Which gets a major /Unsigned to me

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.