PvP and Badge Hunting Just Don't Mix
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-03-19 20:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I never said evasion is victory in itself, only that it was a form of competition, one that forms the basis of a game I'm sure most of the posters in this thread have played, or was Hide and Seek only popular where I grew up? How about Capture the Flag, probably one of the most popular PvP games, is it render PvE because you don't actually have to attack your opponent to win?|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Imagine if those PvP merits mentioned earlier were also granted per time spent in a PvP zone without getting defeated and without being within range of a drone. They'd be farmed by PvEers who'd go to the zones and hide in weird places, doing their utmost to avoid any PvP, and the PvP community would be up in arms about this 'cheating'.
But this is exactly what happens now with Shivans and nukes. I find it much easoer to get them by utilising timezone differences to avoid PvP. If this is winning at PvP, then I'll start announcing my victories in broadcast just before I leave lol. Eco. |
As to your hypothetical, Last I checked you can't get Shivans or Nukes by just standing in the zone, so I fail to see how it is similar in any respect. To get them you have to preform an action and competition is an element of that action, via direct conflict or evasion.
The similarity is in the evasion. Its inefficient for me to attain the shivans through PvP whereas getting them without is fairly easy.
My gypothetical would still have evasion as a PvP mechanic, so under your 'rules' it'd be an acceptable way to get those mytjical merits, would it?
If you class simply being in the zone as engaging in PvP, then I'm a bloody jedi master, if you look at my ratio of shivans attained to defeats.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Again, engaging in is not the same thing as winning. What differentiates the mechanics for getting Shivans and Nukes from your hypothetical is that an objective must still be achieved. Whether you achieve it via direct conflict or evasion is irrelevant, you are still pitting yourself against another player, you just happen to be challenging his ability to find and catch you.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
The similarity is in the evasion. Its inefficient for me to attain the shivans through PvP whereas getting them without is fairly easy.
My gypothetical would still have evasion as a PvP mechanic, so under your 'rules' it'd be an acceptable way to get those mytjical merits, would it? If you class simply being in the zone as engaging in PvP, then I'm a bloody jedi master, if you look at my ratio of shivans attained to defeats. Eco |
Also your hypothetical is flawed in so much as it doesn't have any bearing on my point. That evasion isn't itself an achievement worthy of merit doesn't stop it from being a form of competition.
And yes, much like any player who has won a game of Capture the Flag, or Conquest, or Death Match or whatever, you won a PvP game, a lot, but that doesn't make you anything but good at the Bloody Bay mini-game.
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I think his point is, that there is no PVP required to accomplish the current tasks.|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
Again, engaging in is not the same thing as winning. What differentiates the mechanics for getting Shivans and Nukes from your hypothetical is that an objective must still be achieved. Whether you achieve it via direct conflict or evasion is irrelevant, you are still pitting yourself against another player, you just happen to be challenging his ability to find and catch you.
Also your hypothetical is flawed in so much as it doesn't have any bearing on my point. That evasion isn't itself an achievement worthy of merit doesn't stop it from being a form of competition. And yes, much like any player who has won a game of Capture the Flag, or Conquest, or Death Match or whatever, you won a PvP game, a lot, but that doesn't make you anything but good at the Bloody Bay mini-game. |
The mechanics still work if you are the only person in the zone, without pitting yourself against any person.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Evading other players in PVP on Defiant while getting Shivans and nukes is about as competitive and challenging as evading polar bears in the Antarctic.
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Originally Posted by Shadow State
As to your hypothetical, Last I checked you can't get Shivans or Nukes by just standing in the zone, so I fail to see how it is similar in any respect. To get them you have to perform an action and competition is an element of that action, via direct conflict or evasion.
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
So you want the temp powers to only be available if there are players from both sides on the field?
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That the opponent may forfeit does not negate the fact you are required to submit to PvP in order to get the reward.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
I think his point is, that there is no PVP required to accomplish the current tasks.
The mechanics still work if you are the only person in the zone, without pitting yourself against any person. |
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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Evading other players in PVP on Defiant while getting Shivans and nukes is about as competitive and challenging as evading polar bears in the Antarctic.
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If the PvP zone events are deemed to be too easy for the rewards they give I'm fine with that, but don't try to tell me that tag isn't a competition simply because I can make it to base without beating up whomever happens to be It.
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When there's no It, there's no game. It's just one person running around in a field. I have literally *never* been attacked, or even seen an opposition player, when I was getting either nukes or Shivans on Defiant.|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
If the PvP zone events are deemed to be too easy for the rewards they give I'm fine with that, but don't try to tell me that tag isn't a competition simply because I can make it to base without beating up whomever happens to be It.
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Personally, I don't care much what happens to Shivans and nukes. But if they're balanced around the idea of a realistic chance of PVP opposition, then on my server at least the risk-reward ratio is very screwed. It'd be like giving only a miniscule chance that any of the AVs show up in the STF, and keeping the merits the same.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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1. Don't ask questions when you didn't answer mine.|
Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
The vast majority of COX players ignore the PvP zones entirely, and never even enter them. The ones who never enter the PvP zones have made their feelings about being in a PvP environment abundantly clear. Of those who enter the PvP zones, many do so only to get rewards for PvE purposes, and being attacked by PvPers is nothing more than a hindrance to them, a potential source of delay and irritation.
These observations lead me to ask a few questions: 1. Why should the devs continue to spend large amounts of resources on what amounts to a niche activity, one that has obviously, and repeatedly, been rejected as "not fun" by the vast majority of COX players? 2. Given that the customer base is pretty much the same now as one year ago, why are all of us still being pestered by PvP contacts repeatedly with every alt we make? Why does the response "I've already said many times that I won't go out on a date with you, so would you stop pestering me already" not elicit an empathetic response from the devs? 3. Who is it who has the misplaced sense of entitlement here? I'll go ahead and answer the 3rd question. The near microscopic, but extremely vocal community engaging in PvP has no business trying to continue to tie access to certain PvE rewards to entering PvP zones, not when about 95% to 98% of the community has voted with their feet on having that kind of experience. If those rewards can in some way add to the fun of those who have repeatedly demonstrated, over the years, that they would rather chew off their own arm than enter a PvP zone, then re-balance the difficulty/risk/reward ratio for those PvE goodies currently available only in PvP zones, as appropriate, and spread the love around. On a related point, those who engage in PvP are not the least bit shy about asking for a multitude of changes to the game, regarding a host of issues. And yet, curiously, about the issue being debated in this thread, the intent and design choices of the devs should be regarded as sacrosanct; those who disagree with that line of reasoning are being represented as adopting an a priori illegitimate position because of decisions made years ago, decisions that didn't have the desired effect of making PvP more popular--in fact, I would argue they had the opposite effect--and that promote conflict and ill will between players. |
2. Hindrance? When they remove all of the PvP requirements/needs/wants out of PvE land then you all can complain about 20 badges and shivans.
3. There is obviously a PvP market out there which makes $ but CoX can't get it right and it has nothing to do with this particular topic.
4. Pestered by PvP contacts? That question is outdated my friend.
5. It's pretty obvious that many PvEers have a misplaced sense of entitlement.
6. LOL @ "The near microscopic, but extremely vocal community engaging in PvP has no business trying to continue to tie access to certain PvE rewards to entering PvP zones".What your $15 bucks is better than our $15? We are all paying customers, get over yourself. What PvE only rewards are found in PvP land?
7. We can ask for any changes we want given the fact that we are forced to spend 90% of our game time doing PvE related things in order to PvP in this game.
8. I have 20 lvl 50 characters. 2 of those 20 collect badges. I have only used a shivan ONCE on an STF 2 years ago. I have played through everything this game has to offer and there is nothing found in PvP that anyone NEEDS to play this game.
9. Try to absorb what I said without your misplaced sense of entitlement.
A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
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Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
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It's nice to learn that I'm such an outstanding PvPer. Thanks.|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
That the opponent may forfeit does not negate the fact you are required to submit to PvP in order to get the reward.
That it is neither competitive nor challenging is immaterial to whether or not it is a competition. If the PvP zone events are deemed to be too easy for the rewards they give I'm fine with that, but don't try to tell me that tag isn't a competition simply because I can make it to base without beating up whomever happens to be It. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Then they should be altered in such a way as to better fulfill their intent (giving PvPers non-kill related objectives and rewards to compete over), not re-purposed into PvE content.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
When there's no It, there's no game. It's just one person running around in a field. I have literally *never* been attacked, or even seen an opposition player, when I was getting either nukes or Shivans on Defiant.
Personally, I don't care much what happens to Shivans and nukes. But if they're balanced around the idea of a realistic chance of PVP opposition, then on my server at least the risk-reward ratio is very screwed. It'd be like giving only a miniscule chance that any of the AVs show up in the STF, and keeping the merits the same. |
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
It's nice to learn that I'm such an outstanding PvPer. Thanks.
Eco |
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They're already PvE content. The PvPers that sometimes get in the way are what's broken, and the excessive strength of the Shivans and nukes compared to the risk.|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
Then they should be altered in such a way as to better fulfill their intent (giving PvPers non-kill related objectives and rewards to compete over), not re-purposed into PvE content.
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Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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If evasion is the equivalent of PvP talent, then people who never step foot into PvP zones, Arena or Base Raids must be PvP gods.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
It's nice to learn that I'm such an outstanding PvPer. Thanks.
Eco |
Alright, this has been bugging me for a while now, but with all the PvPers that left with I13, is this thread really intent on driving MORE people out of the zones? Because that's the attitude that I keep seeing from the PvP crew in here.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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You can continue to try to claim the PvP interruption are what's broken, but since they are clearly intended to be part of the event you are wrong.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
They're already PvE content. The PvPers that sometimes get in the way are what's broken, and the excessive strength of the Shivans and nukes compared to the risk.
Eco. |
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So how come it's so easy to avoid other players when getting Shivans then? And how come avoiding other players is encouraged by the mechanics of Bloody Bay and PvP?|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
You can continue to try to claim the PvP interruption are what's broken, but since they are clearly intended to be part of the event you are wrong.
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Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I think he means broken in the sense of 'not working'. As an obstacle to getting a Shivan shard or nuke, PVP most certainly is horribly broken.|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
You can continue to try to claim the PvP interruption are what's broken, but since they are clearly intended to be part of the event you are wrong.
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I guess I've been struck by this because I've never specifically thought before about Shivans and nukes being balanced by PVP risk. When PVP is so desperately thin on some servers, it's not only unbalanced the temp powers, but done so in a way which creates inequality in rewards between players on different servers. Of course, in an ideal world the devs wouldn't need to rebalance the rewards because they'd rebalance the risk by coming up with an awesome (verging on miraculous, in fact) idea to make more people want to PVP.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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My only point is nothing about PvP limits it to only being kill the other player, and even when it is some times a tie is prefured to a lose. As such, evasion is as valid a means to achieve your goals in PvP as it is in PvE.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
If evasion is the equivalent of PvP talent, then people who never step foot into PvP zones, Arena or Base Raids must be PvP gods.
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| Alright, this has been bugging me for a while now, but with all the PvPers that left with I13, is this thread really intent on driving MORE people out of the zones? Because that's the attitude that I keep seeing from the PvP crew in here. |
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And the easiest way to evade is to get out of the zone when there's someone that's actually trying to PvP. It's been said many times that Shivans aren't necessary, so why go through something you don't want for something you don't need. And the people that completely avoid the zones altogether never have to worry about someone trying to stop them from doing what they want. At least, no one they can't report.|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
My only point is nothing about PvP limits it to only being kill the other player, and even when it is some times a tie is preferred to a lose. As such, evasion is as valid a means to achieve your goals in PvP as it is in PvE.
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| Firstly, not all of us opposed to moving content out of PvP zones are actually PvPers, or at the very least I'm not, though I am interested in seeing Shivan, nukes and bunkers be developed into a more interesting, non-death match PvP. As to my intent in this thread, it is to prevent one group of player's complaints from invalidating a potentially interesting avenues of content. |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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It's easy to avoid other players because the zones were designed around having far more players participate than do. And any form of PvP in which objectives are more complex than just kill your opponent will incentivise collusion or avoidance over conflict, that's the nature of competition. Just because the PvP zone events were poorly designed doesn't mean they aren't PvP content.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
So how come it's so easy to avoid other players when getting Shivans then? And how come avoiding other players is encouraged by the mechanics of Bloody Bay and PvP?
Eco. |
people whining about having to enter PvP zones for PvP zone rewards will never stop being funny.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
And the easiest way to evade is to get out of the zone when there's someone that's actually trying to PvP. It's been said many times that Shivans aren't necessary, so why go through something you don't want for something you don't need. And the people that completely avoid the zones altogether never have to worry about someone trying to stop them from doing what they want. At least, no one they can't report.
Well, obviously people who don't want anything to do with PvP would be all for being able to do the content in the zones without having to PvP. I'm not trying to say that you personally don't want anything to do with PvP, just that it should be obvious that those folks would be all in favor of being able to avoid the zones. What does surprise me is that there are ANY PvPers who want LESS activity in the zones. |
That first half seems to stem from some of the misconceptions over what I meant when i said evasion was a part of PvP but otherwise I have to say I don't see anything to disagree with in your post.
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This is true. However, so is PvPers telling people to stay out of 'their yard' with one breath, and complaining about PvP being ignored by the devs with the next.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
people whining about having to enter PvP zones for PvP zone rewards will never stop being funny.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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If a hypothetical PvP merit system were to be introduced (similar to the bounty system in Siren's Call, perhaps; or maybe simply turn in earned rep for rewards) based on kills, it should only be used to purchase PvP IOs, whether they be random rolls or specific recipes. Shivans and Warburg nukes should be made available via reward merits, not PvP merits, but they should either be a weaker version of the ones found in PvP zones (in the case of the nukes) or only have one use (in the case of the Shivan Shard power). As a PvPer, I wouldn't mind if those rewards were removed from PvP zones entirely (and weakened appropriately) - generally when I go searching for those rewards I'm not looking for PvP in the first place as I want those rewards on my PvE characters, who aren't usually built for PvP.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
To shamelessly use a turn of phrase from BillZBubba;
I don't posses enough Hell No to fully answer that. That basically means that anyone wanting to try and get Shivans and Nukes EU side is screwed, unless they get friends to log in on the other side to be killed for the merits. Which basically makes the 'Merits' a sort of farm token. Which gets a major /Unsigned to me |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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What's even funnier--and also sadder--are those who don't understand that putting together people with objectives that work against each other leads to conflict and frustration. |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
people whining about having to enter PvP zones for PvP zone rewards will never stop being funny.
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You get to enjoy one train wreck after another, straight through life, if you fail to grasp that simple concept.
"But there's no way to tell!" PvPers cry. "I can't risk pausing in case you're the God of PvP and you pwn me!"
Yet PvPers rail aginst any kind of flagging system, which would let them know if their opponents were 'thinking' or not.
Also, if it's more important that the opponent be simply a thinking being and that the 'actively fighting' part is hjust a bonus, that sound like PvPers just like to screw with people.
Eco.
Also, you're assigning intent where there really isn't any. It's not like PvP'ers are actively out to ruin your day. It's not a hidden agenda to make you mad because you stepped into "their house." All it's ever been (again, in the majority of cases) is the desire to compete against an opponent with the ability to think beyond the AI. If you fight back against me, win lose or draw, all the better. If not, then down you go and I move on to the next target.
And yes, there's a number of reasons why I wouldn't pause when attacking someone in a PvP zone. The possibility that they're better is there, I might have just gotten lucky and caught them in a lag spike before they could phase and run, or they could be calling for help from their team. Rather than having my target fill out a survey before I resume an attack, I'd rather just finish what I've started and move on. If you're there for PvP, better luck next time. If you're there for Shivans/Nukes, better luck next time.
No malice, no drama, just PvP.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict