PvP and Badge Hunting Just Don't Mix
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-03-19 20:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I think a much better idea is to add several story arc contacts and a Task Force to each zone. Give each story arc and TF let's say double merit to time ratio and you would have to actually PvP in order to complete them.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Rather than stripping all the PvE elements away from PvP zones, I'd suggest stripping all the PvP elements out and reworking the zones into PvE-only zones. There's a lot of potential in those zones that's wasted on the PvP community. PvPers don't seem to be all that bothered about narrative, for example. Why waste zones with a cool storyline like Bloody Bay, Warburg and RV on them? Let them use the arenas and give the arenas instanced versions of the current PvP zone maps. Give the PvP zones some contatcs and story arcs that tie in with their lore, and reduce the strengths of the nukes and shivans if necessary.
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Except that's not the case. Player B, if he defeats player A (who they could presumably meet at a meteor or firebase, both players going for shivans,) would get another code or meteor fragment (or be able to "steal" their scientist in WB,) thus advancing their OWN goal. Yes, it resets the *other* player's progress, but it's not true to say "in no way does engaging in PVP bring him closer to his goal." Leaving the zone, conversely, wastes *all* the time involved, as you don't keep shards or codes. | Player B enters the PvP zone with the goal of obtaining a PvE reward. He wants to do so in the least time necessary. It is to his benefit if no players attack him, because being attacked makes it more difficult to obtain his goal. In no way does engaging in PvP bring him closer to his goal. Whether he wins or loses, time spent PvPing is time wasted, and must be measured against the rewards he could be earning by leaving the zone and engaging in PvE instead. |
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| The presence of player B induces player A to arrive. The presence of player A induces player B to leave. The absence of player B induces player A to leave. The absence of player A induces player B to arrive. Round and round and round we go. This is the problem. |
Hell, player A could well decide to *help* Player B. Of course, if Player B just runs away, they'll never know that - that whole "nobody's psychic" bit again.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
The prescription is not to players, but to designers. When the design turns fellow players into obstacles to enjoyment (and that applies to both A and B), that is stupid and toxic.
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About the only time I could see me agreeing with "it's a problem with design" is if there were something in the zone *required* for you to progress with your character. ("You won't be able to hit Security Level 30, get further XP or rewards, until you defeat other players," for instance.) For instance, I was one of those who argued that having the warzone liason *inside* the zone (your "Go talk to..." mission) was not a good decision, that it forced those who wanted nothing to do with PVP into the zones and held them up from getting other missions. The developers agreed that this was bad design and moved those liasons outside the zone.
That's the only example of anything *required* that was in that situation.
Besides, the design of turning player against player is directly why those rewards you're striving so hard for ARE as good as they are. Would you bother if it were a single-recharge, 3 use Shivan minion?
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I've been having exactly the same difficulty getting MB to follow the arguments I've been making, but perhaps this breaks the impasse; this is beautifully expressed. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
The prescription is not to players, but to designers. When the design turns fellow players into obstacles to enjoyment (and that applies to both A and B), that is stupid and toxic.
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The PvP zones currently have the look and feel of some trick used by the producers of a reality TV show that's designed to promote anger and conflict between contestants and crank up the drama and ratings, except that PvP zone design in COX is set in a game that is intended to be played for fun.
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You know, I've never understood this viewpoint. Having to enter a PvP zone means simply means that you might not be able to get them at the exact time you want to. I frequently go into the PvP zones for PvE activities and if I encounter PvPers I simply come back half an hour later and the zone is normally empty. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Look at the other temporary pet powers in the game. There are only TWO that are obtainable multiple times at full strength, wthout having to have a specific contact to get the mission that grants it. One of them requires a significant investment of time if you're not on a ship raid. The other requires you to enter a PvP zone, where you may or may not be attacked by another player. I would call that fair and balanced.
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Saying that they are more powerful because of the PvP risk is, to me, functionally equivalent to saying that they something is more powerful because when you go to get it there is a 30% chance that you will have to come back at a later time. Ok, if you need them for something right now it would be frustrating but that's why you plan ahead and stock up ahead of time.
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I agree 100%, they should take exploration badges and history plaques out of the PvP zones. The only reason I go into a PvP zones, is to get my accolades for my villains.
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
I do agree with Sam on this aspect. It's not as bad on the COH side as COV where in order to obtain both the Marshall and Born in Battle accolades, along with the bonuses they provide, villains have to enter PvP zones just to get history and or exploration badges. Temp powers are one thing... If you don't want to take the risk to obtain them the solution is simple just don't go in there after them but the Accolade badges that award similar powers on the hero side don't require anyone to enter a PvP zone and fight to get an exploration badge or read a history plaque.
Sure there are ways around PvP battles if you want badges, plaques or even temp powers.. Form an 8 man team and go in after whatever you need or go in at times when the zone is pretty much unoccupied but finding 7 players that ALL want the Weapons of Mass Destruction badge or Shivan or Nukes at the same time can be difficult especially for a casual player. My schedule allows me to hit those zones at 3AM or 6AM my time when hardly anyone is one line but not everyone can do that just to avoid a PvP attack. While I am willing to accept the risk there are other players that are not and denying them access to an accolade isn't right. Just taking Born in Battle as an example it already requires a Villain to take 1 million HP of damage, complete a Instance mission (Exterminator) and battle a GM (Ghost of Scrapyard) then to get the accolade you have to risk attack in Warburg, Bloody Bay and Siren's Call just to get exploartion badges and history plaques? This is the COV equivilent of the Portal Jockey Accolade hero side and while defeating 13 Praetorian AVs is no easy task the rest of the requirements for that badge don't require a hero to go near a PvP zone. Actually aside from the serious badge hunters that have to have them all there is no accolade that forces any hero to enter PvP. Somehow that doesn't seem fair .. NOT taking anything away from what heroes need to do versus villains but we are talking Accolades that most players want regardless of BLUE or RED side and making one side risk attack by other players in PvP to obtain that increase in End and HP while the other doesn't isn't right. A temp power is a temp power and I am a bit of a temp power junkie but they aren't a mandatory item anyone HAS to obtain. You want Amy's Ward?.. do a KHTF. You want Warwolves?.. run mission in Striga. You want Nukes or Shivan? .. Risk the confines of the zone they are in but I don't think it's fair to force a player that has no desire to PvP to enter those zones to obtain an accolade. |
Shivans and Nukes, in my mind, were designed to be very powerful so that players would fight over them. Without a 'risk' (essentially a 50% chance of getting debt in the attempt to get one), they are arguably overpowered.
Just compare them to other temporary powers that can be gotten at equivalent level.
Thinking about the OP, though: no one is clearly in the wrong.
You have the right to ask a player not to attack you in a PvP zone.
They have the right to attack you anyway.
It's a Catch-22. If PvPers are not nice to badge hunters in PvP zones, they may be driving off potential PvPers. If they are nice, then what incentive is there for a badge hunter to try PvP?
Because to me, this is the real question:
What should the Devs do to encourage people who are not yet interested in PVP to try it out?
All of the answers I can think of to that question come around to 'reward people for trying PvP' which comes back around to people entering the zone just for the rewards and trying to not-PvP to get them.
Which puts us right back where we are.
In the end, I think it falls to the players to recruit and educate PvPers. All the Devs can really do is support and reward PvP, or adjust the mechanics of it.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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... you don't get debt from a PVP defeat.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Shivans and Nukes, in my mind, were designed to be very powerful so that players would fight over them. Without a 'risk' (essentially a 50% chance of getting debt in the attempt to get one), they are arguably overpowered.
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D'oh! Brain fart.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I don't think the villain accolade badges/plaques are in PvP zones so much to try and get players to PvP as they are there because of:|
Originally Posted by Lord Ajax
I agree 100%, they should take exploration badges and history plaques out of the PvP zones. The only reason I go into a PvP zones, is to get my accolades for my villains.
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1. Lack of villain zones. Not counting the tutorial, co-op zones, the Abyss, or Monster Island, Ouroboros, or PvP zones villains have a total of seven accessible zones. Meanwhile, heroes have 27 (again, not counting tutorial, co-op, Ouroboros, PvP zones, or the Hive). That's almost four times more zone space to put badges and plaques in, and that's one of the reasons you have to wander through zones you'd never usually go in, like Boomtown or Perez, to get badges for accolades. To be bluntly honest, with the exception of Freedom and possibly Virtue, getting the badges in BB, Siren's, or Warburg is not much more "risky" than running to Crey's Folly to get a badge simply because the PvP zones on most servers are ghost towns (even Freedom's zones are mostly dead except for RV and Siren's during peak hours).
2. Lack of ability to level-gate accolades redside. A level one villain could access every single zone redside as soon as they stepped into Mercy, provided they could get around safely (high-level SK, SG base with teleporters, etc.). That would've allowed villains to unlock every accolade badge as early as level one provided they had friends to help them get the badge missions and hunts. Many of the badges or missions for hero accolades were stuck in hazard zones which, until I16, had minimum level requirements, or were tied to task forces (can't get TFC until 35 at the earliest, and can't get Geas until 30 at the earliest). Putting some of the required badges into PvP zones gave the devs a way to effectively level-gate some of the redside accolades.
The badge changes in I16 helped (Born in Battle no longer requires you to spend time in Siren's Call or win a gladiator match, for example) in removing some of the "harder-to-get" PvP-related badges from the villain accolades. You'll notice some accolades now have a minimum level requirement (you can unlock the badges before a particular level but you won't actually be granted the accolade until you reach that level) so it would be potentially feasible to remove the badges from PvP zones, but badges and plaques are generally only relocated in the event of a zone redesign (i.e. Issue 8 Faultline).
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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I dont give a damn who you are, as long as your name is orange you are a target.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
There's one question which I'd like PvPers to answer, actually, that might have a bearing on the 'segregation-good or bad?' debate: Do you enjoy killing PvEers who don't fight? if PvEers were'nt in the zone at all, if you never encountered a badger who sighed and took his hands off the keyboard and just waited to hosp, would that be a loss to your game?
Because if so, then I can see why PvPers wouldn't want Zone Event rewards moved somewhere else. Eco. |
I still think the Villain badge should be moved and two (well one which is named different based on alignment) new PvP accolades should be added ^_^.
Suprise suprise this game still has a portion of its community that want to ruin other peoples fun because all that matters is what they want...And I am not talking about PvPers. I am really tired of PvP hate in this game, you guys already pushed i13 on us what more do you want?
More on topic, I agree badge hunting and PvP don't mix. But Badges and PvP do. I am just as entitled as everyone else to be rewarded for PvPing, badges included. You don't NEED badges, you want them and if they are in a PvP zone they ARE PvP content. No you don't need to PvP to get them but getting them has the inherient risk of PvP. If you are there for the badge and the badge only and you will scream bloody murder at anyone who attacks you I think the problem lies with you. I know someone is going to ask if I get enjoyment out of killing someone who only runs then yes, yes I do. Why? Because it gives me a chance to practice my skills, the mere act of running is PvP. PvPers run from a fight they know they are going to lose so it is in my best interest to know everything I can do to stop them from getting away. A badger running is practice and yes that is a very blunt way to look at it but still as everyone has pointed out I get rep, inf, and I could possibly get a IO that sells for billions out of it.
Also, I think Bill is answering your questions very well the thing is, he is answering them by taking out the hypothetical situation you present that sets up for an answer you expect. All the questions you people are asking beg an answer that fits your agenda but the core of your question, which he is answering, doesn't.
Seriously when I hear people complain about PvPers in PvP zone ruining their fun I just laugh because if I could I would level 1-50 in a PvP zone but it is never going to happen. But YOU can by doing what you love, so how is that FAIR? I wish I could fully IO out my character with PvP but it will never happen, market aside, so how is that FAIR? It isn't fair but I don't complain about it because you know what? It wont kill me not being able to do those things, just like it wont kill you to not get every single badge in the game. I HATE leveling in this game but I do it so I can PvP on new characters all the time and have what I consider fun.
No ones right to fun out weighs anyone elses and no a PvPer attacking you in a PvP zone is not out weighing your fun it is you smashing yourself in the knee with a hammer, if you don't like it stop subjecting yourself to it. If it doesn't kill you and you can stomach it then by all means keep going. How many of you say you have gone and gotten all these badges and rewards? OBVIOUSLY it's not so big a deal that you wont do it, you just want it easier on you at the expense of PvPers.
EDIT: For clarification.
No relation to Arachnos!
Part Pack: Now the majority of players know how we, PvPers, have felt for years now. Don't want to be so "civil" now that you have been completly ignored, do you?
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I shpuld have made my question clearer lol. |
Originally Posted by Terror1
I dont give a damn who you are, as long as your name is orange you are a target.
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Which do you prefer, fighting sb who fights back or sb who stands there and simply waits to die?
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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"And, again, I don't know that that's you. I don't know you don't want to fight back. I don't know your "Just here for..." anything. I don't know that getting you started in a fight WON'T get you interested, or that AFAYC it's just a quick way back (in BB) to get inspirations, come back and clean my clock. Because, after all, those same IOs, inspirations, XP, etc. help YOU out as well."
But as the game currently stands, you must know generally that any toon you meet in a pvp zone has to have a chance of being Noobly McNooblet, there just for badges.
Whereas if there were NO pve enticements in the PvP zones, you'd be more likely to find the pop swayed towards those who want to pvp and make efforts to improve at it.*
the IOs are often mentioned by the pro-PvP anti-segregationist lobby. I think it's clear that, just as getting shivans is easier amd thus more desirable for a PvE-only player when there are no PVPers to deal with, having easy kills is better for PvPers who are comcerned with pvp rewards. Ganking noobs is a much more efficient method of getting IO recipes than straight 'as-intended' PvP
Eco*
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Going back to the OP here.
My personal etiquette:
- I won't attack someone who is in the middle of fighting NPCs. If they are, I wait until the fight is over before I open fire. This is because I don't think it's right for someone to get debt as a result of my attack when they otherwise would not have. If I kill them, they lose nothing (unless they're carrying shards or launch codes), but that NPC will give them debt.
- If I'm after rep or recipes I won't kill someone more often than every ten minutes. If I kill them more frequently than that it annoys them and I gain nothing from it anyway, so I don't bother.
- If I kill someone who is obviously there for a badge or a temp power, I send them a polite tell thanking them for helping me with my badge. I can't get any of the rep badges or the heroes/villains defeated badges without defeating people in zone PvP (arena kills don't count toward those). I figure maybe if they knew their getting defeated was actually helping someone achieve something it might take some of the sting out of it. I mean, if you're there for a badge, are you really going to begrudge someone else their badge? (For the record, I play almost exclusively on Pinnacle, getting those badges in active PvP with other PvPers is nearly impossible there)
- I will frequently help someone take out the firebases in BB. If I have already killed them since I've been in there, the least I can do is help them with their goal in return.
That's just MY personal set of rules regarding my own behavior. I don't expect everyone to follow them, but I try to at least have some honor about it when I'm in there PvPing.
On the other hand, if I'm in there for a Shivan, a nuke, or a badge of some kind and I get attacked, I don't complain about it. As I mentioned above, I'm not going to begrudge someone else a reward that they can only get through defeating other players. If their presence makes it more dificult for me to get what I'm there for....oh well. I accept the fact that they have just as much right to be in the zone for whatever reason as I do.
I actually get the feeling that if more people in the game were like me on this issue it wouldn't even BE an issue.
Again for the record: I don't consider myself a PvPer, and I don't consider myself a PvEer. I consider myself a CoX player, nothing more.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Actually, in my experience, yes. Yes they will. The average player doesn't give a toss about your game experience. They only care about their own. Sadly, you can apply that to life in general. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
... if you're there for a badge, are you really going to begrudge someone else their badge?
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
(For the record, I play almost exclusively on Pinnacle, getting those badges in active PvP with other PvPers is nearly impossible there)
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I actually get the feeling that if more people in the game were like me on this issue it wouldn't even BE an issue.
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Ganking noobs is an exploit?
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Ganking noobs is a much more efficient method of getting IO recipes than straight 'as-intended' PvP
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Ambush City, Or: How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Ambush - Arc #1043
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Shift - Arc #529411
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I'm puzzled here.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
(For the record, I play almost exclusively on Pinnacle, getting those badges in active PvP with other PvPers is nearly impossible there)
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Pinnacle RV is virtually dead most of the time unless XFunk, myself or maybe one or two people are kicking around. And it's not that hard, assuming you have a quick movement power like Superspeed or Super Leap, to just hop to your next explore badge and move on. Heck, I got all of them the other night on my Corruptor with nary a hassle (Two Blasters were around and a Scrapper, there was PvP and no one was upset about it).
Now, if you're working on something more laborious like pillboxes or the heavies, that might solicit some attention. Even then you can usually /hide from searches and get it done. Even so, I've found most people on Pinnacle are pretty cooperative about getting explores if you tell them.
Wow that was a long tangent.
Anyway, I guess the point is...if you want to run the AVs in RV, good luck on a populated server unless you can somehow get the PvPers to cooperate with it. On lower pop servers, you can usually get the AVs done without much trouble and some SGs will actually help out.
It really is "play at your own risk" though.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
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I must? How is it that I "must" know that? I've attacked unknown people in the past, just to find (afterward) that "Oh, it's you. New alt I see" frequently enough that, no, that's NOT something I "must" know.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
But as the game currently stands, you must know generally that any toon you meet in a pvp zone has to have a chance of being Noobly McNooblet, there just for badges.
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This is equivalent to the expert PVP players moving into PvE zones, then whining that they cannot attack any of the people conducting a costume contest around Atlas
The entitlement of some is astonishing
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Misunderstood what I was saying. |
Originally Posted by Neuronia
I'm puzzled here.
Pinnacle RV is virtually dead most of the time unless XFunk, myself or maybe one or two people are kicking around. And it's not that hard, assuming you have a quick movement power like Superspeed or Super Leap, to just hop to your next explore badge and move on. Heck, I got all of them the other night on my Corruptor with nary a hassle (Two Blasters were around and a Scrapper, there was PvP and no one was upset about it). Now, if you're working on something more laborious like pillboxes or the heavies, that might solicit some attention. Even then you can usually /hide from searches and get it done. Even so, I've found most people on Pinnacle are pretty cooperative about getting explores if you tell them. Wow that was a long tangent. Anyway, I guess the point is...if you want to run the AVs in RV, good luck on a populated server unless you can somehow get the PvPers to cooperate with it. On lower pop servers, you can usually get the AVs done without much trouble and some SGs will actually help out. It really is "play at your own risk" though. |
I was talking about the rep badges and the player defeat badges. THOSE are difficult to get on Pinnacle. I have no difficulty at all getting the exploration badges and plaques, and I have little or no interest in getting the pillbox or heavy badges.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Which is fantastic, but perhaps you should then get off the field during the game.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Exactly, just because I'm on a football field doesn't mean I want to play football, no matter how much you toss or kick the ball to me.
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Why is there a hot dog stand on the 50 yard line? Whose bright idea was it to put that there? It wasn't the football players' idea. It wasn't the idea of the hungry guy dodging across the field to buy a hot dog. It was the idea of the guys who built the stadium. "Come for the hot dogs! Stay to play football!" And we can't move the hot dog stand, because the deals are so great that if you didn't have to wander out into the middle of a football game to buy a hotdog we'd go broke! Never mind that the concession stand is open 24/7 and hardly anyone comes to play football anymore. If you want cheap hotdogs, you should be prepared to be tackled by linebackers. Fair's fair.|
Originally Posted by Sayer
Which is fantastic, but perhaps you should then get off the field during the game.
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This is a terrible way to run a football arena. It doesn't promote football, it doesn't actually act as a reasonable check on hot dog prices, and it causes endless pissy fights between football players and hot dog eaters.
cue discussion on why this metaphor isn't 100% accurate
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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Quick poll:
If all non-PvP specific badges were moved out of PvP zones, would that...
1) Help PvP? "Anyone in the zone obviously wants to PvP, so there will be one less thing to whine about."
2) Hurt PvP? "No new players are coming to PvP zones, because there isn't even the slightest incentive."
3) Have no effect on PvP? "The hardcore PvPers will always play, and no one else will ever join, regardless, so PvP can't be affected by this."
And a follow up question:
- Should the Devs provide any kind of incentive for Non-PVPers to try PvP out, even if it isn't badges?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
The problem is that it is not your behavior in specific, nor the behavior of PvPers in general, that I am arguing about! It is perfectly normal that someone who came to the zone to PvP should attack other players. I am not arguing that they shouldn't. I am not arguing against the behavior of any player. I am addressing my argument directly against the zone design, because the behavior it promotes does not square with the stated intent of the zone.
I have not been as clear as I would like to be. Let me try to put this in a way that is less likely to be misinterpreted.
Player A enters the PvP zone with the goal of engaging in PvP with other players. It is presumably to his benefit (and if I'm wrong about this, I would be very very surprised) that there be a lot of other players here on either faction, who will respond to being attacked by remaining in the zone and fighting back.
Player B enters the PvP zone with the goal of obtaining a PvE reward. He wants to do so in the least time necessary. It is to his benefit if no players attack him, because being attacked makes it more difficult to obtain his goal. In no way does engaging in PvP bring him closer to his goal. Whether he wins or loses, time spent PvPing is time wasted, and must be measured against the rewards he could be earning by leaving the zone and engaging in PvE instead.
The presence of player B induces player A to arrive. The presence of player A induces player B to leave. The absence of player B induces player A to leave. The absence of player A induces player B to arrive. Round and round and round we go. This is the problem.
Yes, some people think they are B and are actually A. But there are other ways to induce reluctant players into PvP, that do not involve drawing players with zero intent to PvP into a PvP zone. Rewards that can be obtained exclusively through PvE play, and are more difficult to obtain in the presence of PvP play, have no place in a PvP zone, because they draw in people who will never want to do what the zone is supposed to be for. That is my point.
The prescription is not to players, but to designers. When the design turns fellow players into obstacles to enjoyment (and that applies to both A and B), that is stupid and toxic.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs