SS and WP

[ QUOTE ]

Or maybe he dont drive himself mad worrying about things that dont effect him, and just plays the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why bother to post in this thread at all , if he dont cares ?
Is it only allowed to say sets underperform compared to others, not that some sets are overperforming ?

Player cried for buffs for certain sets since beta, and those sets got the buffs, meaning they got balanced compared to the performance of most of the other sets.
Shall now all sets get buffed to the performance of some specific sets or better balance those specific sets compared to the masses of sets ?

Shall it really be buff, buff,buff all other sets till its pointless to team since everyone can beat AVS and SF and maps for 8 players solo ?

Why do ppl see balance as a threat ?

I played warhammer online for some time, and all of a sudden every 3rd player rolled a bright wizard cause they were outperforming all other classes.
The non brightwizards complained its pointless to roll any other class than brightwizard.
Of course all the brightwizard players denied they were overpowered, they didnt want to lose their advantage over others.

The devs looked into them and noticed the players were right, the brightwizards were performing much better than intended, and toned them down to the lvls of the other classes.

Cant see something wrong with it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Or maybe he dont drive himself mad worrying about things that dont effect him, and just plays the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why bother to post in this thread at all , if he dont cares ?
Is it only allowed to say sets underperform compared to others, not that some sets are overperforming ?

Player cried for buffs for certain sets since beta, and those sets got the buffs, meaning they got balanced compared to the performance of most of the other sets.
Shall now all sets get buffed to the performance of some specific sets or better balance those specific sets compared to the masses of sets ?

Shall it really be buff, buff,buff all other sets till its pointless to team since everyone can beat AVS and SF and maps for 8 players solo ?

[/ QUOTE ]

No i think your right, buff buff buff is bad.

Thats why i agree with the idea of adding another difficulty level, that way no one gets a [censored] up char and those that want it harder can have it.

[ QUOTE ]


Roll another secondary ?
Learn to deal with drawbacks ?


[/ QUOTE ]

So an imbalance you perceive to be needed is a job for the devs, but one someone else perceives is something that they need to deal with themselves without bothering you?


[ QUOTE ]

Every set should have its weak spots that compensate for its strenghts, and as far as i can see every secondary got drawbacks apart from WP.


[/ QUOTE ]

Or perhaps the degree of benefit the set gives might be lower across the board with no specific weaknesses....Wp is one of the more recent sets, isn't it possible they wanted to add something new for players to try?


[ QUOTE ]

What i dont understand is, why ppl always want sets that are excellent in every aspect without any weak spots.


[/ QUOTE ]

That one certainly is a puzzler indeed...though it might just be that people pick the set at a time when it had different advantages because people keep demanding nerfs or perhaps they have silly reasons like for instance my own which was I wanted a powerset where there was no real Aura spewing all over my character for every toggle that I run. (INV is terrible for obliterating detail on a dark suited char you might notice.)


[ QUOTE ]

At least for me, running around as a demigod without any challenge in game is not much fun.


[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't dream of imposing one persons style of play on another, fortunately there is a choice for all of us isn't there!

On a less serious (?) note, I have but one thing to say about God;
"SMITE ME!"

Although I wouldnt have my Angel PB without religion
-has given up sensible argument-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that's all fine and good congrats you've solved the problem of ss/wp now fix my DB/WP as his damage has dropped and that recharge debuff has made my combos harder to pull off

[/ QUOTE ]

I notice that the pro nerfs haven't answered this

Quote from The Mess but I'd be in the same boat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Roll another secondary ?
Learn to deal with drawbacks ?

if you were /da you would have insane end probs and medicore resists+ kb hole
if ou were fire you would have no psi res at all, no kb prot and no real immob protection
if you were elec you would not have a heal and mezz prot only working when grounded
if you were EA ... oh well :-)
if you were Stone you would have the same problem.
If stone gets major drawbacks for beeing very survivable, then WP with no abvious holes should have drawbacks too.

Every set should have its weak spots that compensate for its strenghts, and as far as i can see every secondary got drawbacks apart from WP.

What i dont understand is, why ppl always want sets that are excellent in every aspect without any weak spots.

At least for me, running around as a demigod without any challenge in game is not much fun.

making overall diff for everyone harder wouldnt help either, cause ceratin sets would still be much better while others which are no very good atm would become totally useless.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha you want me to re roll my toon your kidding right? please tell me your kidding i rolled my DB/WP the day the 2 sets went live and I've made it to 26 you want me to throw away all that time spent on the toon the badges he's errand the inf he's earned any inventions he has?

and why because you see SS/WP as being over powered get a grip your clearly off your rocker and out your mind i don't even have SS i have duel blades a set that when paired with willpower works well it doesnt make me a god it doesnt make me a wet paper bag it makes a good well rounded toon that i like to play and you want to Nerf it because the secondary I've picked happens to work even better with a primary i discounted because it didn't match my idea.

before you go calling Nerf on things here's some things to check once you've checked them all come back here with your numbers and truly prove your point.

compare all the brute primaries to each other without considering secondarys do take into account the type of damage they do and any secondary effects they have

now do the same for the secondary

now compare each and every combination possible so SS/WP SS/elec SS/energy SS/dark SS/SR DM/WP DM/fire DM/elec etc etc etc

then do the same but take into account the power pools and patron pools

now do this with training origin enhancements up to the appropriate lvl

now do it with DOs

now do it with SOs

now do it with higher value IOs eg those that give a better percentage than a standard SO

now do it with HOs

now do it using cheeps IO sets

now do it using expensive IO sets

now do it optimising for specific stats so best end recovery best resistance values best recharge boost

now do it for a completely optimised best it can be build using IOs (standard and invention)

now do it using purple IOs

right done all that?..good now take all that data and now do the same thing for every AT villain side once you've done that start comparing the many many different brute builds that you've came up with in different team makeups until you've tried each brute build with each possible team make up.

Once you've done all that and seen how a build changes dependent on level, slotting, and team make up you can go on to see how your individual brute builds perform against different enemy groups (you should also do this for the teams)

and now that you've done all this you can come and say

"X power set is overpowered"

until that point all you can say is "well i think X power set is overpowered but i cant prove it" because half arsed numbers you put together from comparing 1 type of power or 1 aspect of something don't = proof.

[ QUOTE ]
before you go calling Nerf on things here's some things to check once you've checked them all come back here with your numbers and truly prove your point.

compare all the brute primaries to each other without considering secondarys do take into account the type of damage they do and any secondary effects they have

now do the same for the secondary

now compare each and every combination possible so SS/WP SS/elec SS/energy SS/dark SS/SR DM/WP DM/fire DM/elec etc etc etc

then do the same but take into account the power pools and patron pools

now do this with training origin enhancements up to the appropriate lvl

now do it with DOs

now do it with SOs

now do it with higher value IOs eg those that give a better percentage than a standard SO

now do it with HOs

now do it using cheeps IO sets

now do it using expensive IO sets

now do it optimising for specific stats so best end recovery best resistance values best recharge boost

now do it for a completely optimised best it can be build using IOs (standard and invention)

now do it using purple IOs

right done all that?..good now take all that data and now do the same thing for every AT villain side once you've done that start comparing the many many different brute builds that you've came up with in different team makeups until you've tried each brute build with each possible team make up.

Once you've done all that and seen how a build changes dependent on level, slotting, and team make up you can go on to see how your individual brute builds perform against different enemy groups (you should also do this for the teams)

and now that you've done all this you can come and say

"X power set is overpowered"

until that point all you can say is "well i think X power set is overpowered but i cant prove it" because half arsed numbers you put together from comparing 1 type of power or 1 aspect of something don't = proof.


[/ QUOTE ]

^^THIS^^

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
before you go calling Nerf on things here's some things to check once you've checked them all come back here with your numbers and truly prove your point.

compare all the brute primaries to each other without considering secondarys do take into account the type of damage they do and any secondary effects they have

now do the same for the secondary

now compare each and every combination possible so SS/WP SS/elec SS/energy SS/dark SS/SR DM/WP DM/fire DM/elec etc etc etc

then do the same but take into account the power pools and patron pools

now do this with training origin enhancements up to the appropriate lvl

now do it with DOs

now do it with SOs

now do it with higher value IOs eg those that give a better percentage than a standard SO

now do it with HOs

now do it using cheeps IO sets

now do it using expensive IO sets

now do it optimising for specific stats so best end recovery best resistance values best recharge boost

now do it for a completely optimised best it can be build using IOs (standard and invention)

now do it using purple IOs

right done all that?..good now take all that data and now do the same thing for every AT villain side once you've done that start comparing the many many different brute builds that you've came up with in different team makeups until you've tried each brute build with each possible team make up.

Once you've done all that and seen how a build changes dependent on level, slotting, and team make up you can go on to see how your individual brute builds perform against different enemy groups (you should also do this for the teams)

and now that you've done all this you can come and say

"X power set is overpowered"

until that point all you can say is "well i think X power set is overpowered but i cant prove it" because half arsed numbers you put together from comparing 1 type of power or 1 aspect of something don't = proof.


[/ QUOTE ]

^^THIS^^

[/ QUOTE ]

^^ME SAY THIS TO^^

And hello Thorny, nice to see you.

If you want to make it more difficult then go play a melee Dom as well, there resistances are far worse that a Brutes, and don't take the hold . Only the immob and none of the others from the primary. Then you can have all the difficulty you need.

[ QUOTE ]


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha you want me to re roll my toon your kidding right? please tell me your kidding i rolled my DB/WP the day the 2 sets went live and I've made it to 26 you want me to throw away all that time spent on the toon the badges he's errand the inf he's earned any inventions he has?

and why because you see SS/WP as being over powered get a grip your clearly off your rocker and out your mind i don't even have SS i have duel blades a set that when paired with willpower works well it doesnt make me a god it doesnt make me a wet paper bag it makes a good well rounded toon that i like to play and you want to Nerf it because the secondary I've picked happens to work even better with a primary i discounted because it didn't match my idea.

before you go calling Nerf on things here's some things to check once you've checked them all come back here with your numbers and truly prove your point.

compare all the brute primaries to each other without considering secondarys do take into account the type of damage they do and any secondary effects they have

now do the same for the secondary

now compare each and every combination possible so SS/WP SS/elec SS/energy SS/dark SS/SR DM/WP DM/fire DM/elec etc etc etc

then do the same but take into account the power pools and patron pools

now do this with training origin enhancements up to the appropriate lvl

now do it with DOs

now do it with SOs

now do it with higher value IOs eg those that give a better percentage than a standard SO

now do it with HOs

now do it using cheeps IO sets

now do it using expensive IO sets

now do it optimising for specific stats so best end recovery best resistance values best recharge boost

now do it for a completely optimised best it can be build using IOs (standard and invention)

now do it using purple IOs

right done all that?..good now take all that data and now do the same thing for every AT villain side once you've done that start comparing the many many different brute builds that you've came up with in different team makeups until you've tried each brute build with each possible team make up.

Once you've done all that and seen how a build changes dependent on level, slotting, and team make up you can go on to see how your individual brute builds perform against different enemy groups (you should also do this for the teams)

and now that you've done all this you can come and say

"X power set is overpowered"

until that point all you can say is "well i think X power set is overpowered but i cant prove it" because half arsed numbers you put together from comparing 1 type of power or 1 aspect of something don't = proof.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do know yourself most of your your requests are just plain lol..and wont proove anything at all...

Its more than enough to compare the primaries without any enh at all to see which sets perform better and you know it.
Maybe what a maxed recharge build can do, but thats it.

Btw if you rolled Db/Wp as soon as it came out and now its only 26 you either dont like playing it and theres no reason to be upset about changes or you dont play much at all.
Either way 26 lvls since DB/Wp was introduced really means you didnt spent much time at all playing that toon :-)

Infamy can be transfered, as can recipes and sets.....
Many other sets have been nerfed and or buffed over time and ppl learned either to adapt or rolled a new char, simple as that.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh and by the way in repliance to Toerag converting the Pope to Islam is possible, people have changed religions before and it still goes on now, it's commonplace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay.

[ QUOTE ]

Oh and by the way in repliance to Toerag converting the Pope to Islam is possible, people have changed religions before and it still goes on now, it's commonplace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Name 1 pope that has converted from Catholocism to another religion please.

The current one became a Sith.

[ QUOTE ]
You do know yourself most of your your requests are just plain lol..and wont proove anything at all...


[/ QUOTE ]

Er, yes, thats the point of the post. Unless you do all the reasearch its imposible to say catagoiclly. Feeling a little slow in our self rightious ranting are we?

[ QUOTE ]
Its more than enough to compare the primaries without any enh at all to see which sets perform better and you know it.


[/ QUOTE ]


That is complete and utter an total bull. I've never heard anything so stupid!!

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe what a maxed recharge build can do, but thats it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Because every player has the 1000 million inf required to stack enough recharge to double stack rage! Of course, it obvious now!!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You do know yourself most of your your requests are just plain lol..and wont proove anything at all...


[/ QUOTE ]

Er, yes, thats the point of the post. Unless you do all the reasearch its imposible to say catagoiclly. Feeling a little slow in our self rightious ranting are we?

[ QUOTE ]
Its more than enough to compare the primaries without any enh at all to see which sets perform better and you know it.


[/ QUOTE ]


That is complete and utter an total bull. I've never heard anything so stupid!!

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe what a maxed recharge build can do, but thats it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Because every player has the 1000 million inf required to stack enough recharge to double stack rage! Of course, it obvious now!!

[/ QUOTE ]

1000 million inf? What does that look like?

Tsk, we should nerf every farm party so that it is impossible to get those 1000 mill in the first place. Problem solved.

[ QUOTE ]
Btw if you rolled Db/Wp as soon as it came out and now its only 26 you either dont like playing it and theres no reason to be upset about changes or you dont play much at all.
Either way 26 lvls since DB/Wp was introduced really means you didnt spent much time at all playing that toon :-)

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I feel I have to jump in here. I am in a similar position to TheMESS, I rolled a DB/WP brute and have so far gotten it only to level 36.
I really enjoy this character. But, according to you, because it has been so long since it was created I obviously haven't spent a long time on it. And because TheMESS only got theirs to 26 they have spent even less time on it! That is quite an assumption.

You do realise that not everyone just wants to steamroller their way to 50? I have spent a lot of time on my brute collecting badges, unlocking contacts, earning inf, earning prestige and doing innumerable taskforces. She could quite easily be sitting at 50 now, but I chose a different route.

Further; you told TheMESS to simply reroll because, at 25, it isn't much of a loss. Does the level make any difference? What about 36? 46? 50?
[ QUOTE ]




Infamy can be transfered, as can recipes and sets.....
Many other sets have been nerfed and or buffed over time and ppl learned either to adapt or rolled a new char, simple as that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Infamy, recipes and sets can be transferred, yes. But can time spent developing and even levelling the character? Can the concept? Can the time-dependant badges?

You seem to be saying that because one particular pair of powersets works better than other combinations (Whether this is true or not I shall not comment because I wouldn't know) then both powersets should be nerfed. Do you not realise that this would not make this specific power combination more average in 'power' as it would also lower the 'power' of all combinations using one of those powers. SS/WP would still outperform DB/WP and SS/Elec (making the assumption that it currently does of course).

In short, the action you propose would not achieve the desired effect as the combination would still retain its relative effectiveness with all other related combinations.

In a further aside, your argument of rerolling, if taken to extremes, would end up with there being only one brute combination (why bother having anything else if only one works).

Yet a further aside; the last WP discussion I recall reading on these boards was a complaint that it was a 'bit weak'. Admittedly that was probably before the set was actually released, but I still find it amusing. As for it having no weakness; is the weakness not that it has no self heal? Yes, it has regen, but no heal.

[ QUOTE ]
As for it having no weakness; is the weakness not that it has no self heal? Yes, it has regen, but no heal.

[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed, if there's more damage incoming than you can regen back, either from a nasty boss / eb / AV or because someone in the PuG just scattered the group to the 4 winds there's little you can do other than pop insps and try desperately to kill them before you die.

My Claw/Willpower scrapper has had this issue a few times *Glares at Nocturene and some Lost bosses*

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for it having no weakness; is the weakness not that it has no self heal? Yes, it has regen, but no heal.

[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed, if there's more damage incoming than you can regen back, either from a nasty boss / eb / AV or because someone in the PuG just scattered the group to the 4 winds there's little you can do other than pop insps and try desperately to kill them before you die.

My Claw/Willpower scrapper has had this issue a few times *Glares at Nocturene and some Lost bosses*

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, try tanking Rom using a SS/WP brute.

Yup, like all regen powers, they appear to be overpowered as long as you can regen more then the incoming damage. But as soon you go over that, you tend to die fast.
Old school regen scrappers knows this well. Just tossing one extra mob in which puts you over the limit causes you to faceplant

Imo willpower is no more overpowered than others really. It's strong versus many weak enemies like LTs and Minions, but against few tougher, it performs less good.
What i like most with willpower is that it's very non intrusive on your characters appearance. And the fact that it benefits very well from inspirations. Just one Luck or Rugged inspiration can do alot on a willpower. While popping a luck on a def capped shield scrapper doesn't do as much good.

[ QUOTE ]
Just tossing one extra mob in which puts you over the limit causes you to faceplant

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm liking willpower so far on my scrapper. I don't think it's overpowered yet but I have far from slotted perfectly and don't have all my toggles.

I seam to die at about the same rate as everyone in the team.. exept for the fire scrapper who thinks he's a tank... Some people will know who I mean

[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">Antwort auf:[/color]<hr />
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">Antwort auf:[/color]<hr />
Its more than enough to compare the primaries without any enh at all to see which sets perform better and you know it.


[/ QUOTE ]


That is complete and utter an total bull. I've never heard anything so stupid!!


[/ QUOTE ]This.

At least I can now understand how the OP could come to his delusional ideas, although if it is a lack of comprehension regarding game mechanics or failure at maths I am not sure.

Just to add a simplified example how slotting does matter:
Archetype X has powersets A and B.
Powerset A has many medium strength attacks but not many real big hitters. The best repeatable attack chain with unslotted attacks consists of 1 attack with a DPA of 200, 4 attacks with a DPA of 150 and 1 attack with a DPA of 100, resulting in attack chain DPS of 150.
Powerset B is more extreme with lots of frontloaded damage. The best repeatable attack chain with unslotted attacks consists of 3 attacks with a DPA of 200, 1 attack with a DPA of 150, 1 attack with a DPA of 100 and 1 weak filler attack with a DPA of 50, likewise resulting in attack chain DPS of 150.
Seems like powersets A and B are equal, but let's throw in enough recharge to make repeatable attack chains shorter, so that we can get rid of the weakest attacks.
The best attack chain for powerset A is now 1 attack with a DPA of 200 and 3 attacks with a DPA of 150. Attack chain DPS is now 162.5.
Powerset B can now build an attack chain of 3 attacks with 200 DPA and one with 150 DPA. The weakest attack powers are not needed at all anymore. The big hitters now recharge fast enough for burst damage to become almost equivalent to sustained damage. Attack chain DPS is now 187.5.
Suddenly powerset B is significantly better than powerset A.

[ QUOTE ]
What i like most with willpower is that it's very non intrusive on your characters appearance.

[/ QUOTE ]What I hate most about Willpower is the horrible pale yellow heartbeat glow, and periodic burst of yellow ripples.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What i like most with willpower is that it's very non intrusive on your characters appearance.

[/ QUOTE ]What I hate most about Willpower is the horrible pale yellow heartbeat glow, and periodic burst of yellow ripples.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still better than the bright rainbow outline of invuln, and the fully obstruction of stone, fire and ice
Why even bother with a cossie when using those powersets &gt;&lt;

[ QUOTE ]
Btw if you rolled Db/Wp as soon as it came out and now its only 26 you either dont like playing it and theres no reason to be upset about changes or you dont play much at all.
Either way 26 lvls since DB/Wp was introduced really means you didnt spent much time at all playing that toon :-)


[/ QUOTE ]
Or...
Maybe he has the odd alt.
Maybe he only gets limited playing time.
Maybe he plays at a leisurely pace (and so doesn't PL to 50 in 20 hrs).

Funnily enough I rolled a db/wp on the day they came out - up until last week they were level 27. Now got them to 42 (still pushing for the Titan spawn event) and noticed last night that they've logged about 87 hrs.

So taking off what I've played in the past week, I'm guessing that it took that character just over 50 hours to get to level 28.

Only hitting 27/28 in 50 hours may not be up to your great standards, Moghedian, but for most people it is still playing a fair bit and plenty of time to become attached to a character! Your comments about not liking the character or not having a reason to be upset at your proposed changes are just wrong.

Well, fire is not all that bad for your costume, ice is a bit worse in that regard. But monkey doodoo, errr stone armour is indeed a worst case scenario for a costume designer.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What i like most with willpower is that it's very non intrusive on your characters appearance.

[/ QUOTE ]What I hate most about Willpower is the horrible pale yellow heartbeat glow, and periodic burst of yellow ripples.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still better than the bright rainbow outline of invuln, and the fully obstruction of stone, fire and ice
Why even bother with a cossie when using those powersets &gt;&lt;

[/ QUOTE ]

Inv Tanks looks like disco kings and queens.

If you want to something to nerfed too badly i say try to convince devs to nerf Ice shields visual fx's. They ruin my cossie.

*I don't feel a need to say something about OP because nerfing seems to be new trend on boards. We dismissed "merge the servers" ones and have this for new year i think *

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What i like most with willpower is that it's very non intrusive on your characters appearance.

[/ QUOTE ]What I hate most about Willpower is the horrible pale yellow heartbeat glow, and periodic burst of yellow ripples.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still better than the bright rainbow outline of invuln, and the fully obstruction of stone, fire and ice
Why even bother with a cossie when using those powersets &gt;&lt;

[/ QUOTE ]

Inv Tanks looks like disco kings and queens.

If you want to something to nerfed too badly i say try to convince devs to nerf Ice shields visual fx's. They ruin my cossie.

*I don't feel a need to say something about OP because nerfing seems to be new trend on boards. We dismissed "merge the servers" ones and have this for new year i think *

[/ QUOTE ]

Nerfing is the new black.