I'm a little disappointed.
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2006-04-25 09:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I did like chum. Recalled the great 7-Up commercial with a taste test...
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So take charge and go tell the powers guys that the boss says it will be "chum", end of story. Don't let them walk all over you like Statesbaby does.
Well from what i've seen here, and i've been here a long time(4-5 years I think). The Issue is you've set up unrealistic expectations of customizability in this game.
Look at the character creater in this game.
Some might say there are only five classes in this game. The AT's. However a Dark Defender is far diffrent from a Force Field Defender. The differences between a Fire Tank and an Ice Tank are more then cosmetic. Looking at it this way there are several dozen 'classes' in this game.
But this is only the start of it.
Costumes...well...what can I say that hasin't been said... CoX wins this one hands down.
Your character in this game is so unique. I've played a few other MMOs in my time and NONE come close to this. When I play other games I look and act the same as every one else of my class and it stays that way for the rest of my characters life.
Not so here.
As if this wasin't enough. We have the epic powers in this game. Makeing it hard to find someone with the same powers you have at the highest levels.
Now the downside to all this crazy uniqeness is that we want MORE of it. We what the ability to join Lord Recluse, AND the power to pick an Ancillary pool(best if we could get both at the same time).
You will run into the same issue if/when you let us change our animations, effects, and colors. Yes could be some issues with people in PvP unable to tell what their opponent is doing. Personaly I think this is ok, a little more randomness in combat makes it more interesting.
But you've set the standerd. People expect everything you do to have the flexiblity to fit their imaginations like the Costume Creater.
And now I await the day when I can have a beast claw/Regen hunched over Wolf-man and turn regen into glowing red rings emiting from my eyes.
Thanks for taking the time to talk to us. It's a gamble for a dev to reveal their thoughts and design process, and could open you up to a whole new line of criticisms, but I appreciate that you try. 
Onward! While it does irk me that my Ice/Ice Dominator must take shark/lightning/soul/mace powers instead of more Ice powers, that's not my biggest concern.
The lack of ability to respec out of a Patron throws up major red flags. City is an ever-changing experience, with powers especially undergoing constant revision. I for one don't mind this, and actually enjoy it, as long as I have the ability to adapt via a respec.
This Patron thing treads on dangerous new ground, though. Tweaks that may seem minor to a dev can permanently change my gameplay experience, since I have no ability to choose a different Patron. What if Bile Spray is deemed too high damage for toxic type and it gets nerfed after I choose Mako (we all know it could happen 
)? Suddenly I am left wanting the area blast from Scirocco instead, but... I am stuck with Mako. 
I know the lack of technology to remove a Contact prevents respecing out of a patron, but I think this is a major problem that needs to be addressed.
Finally, while new art on PPPs is great and all, they lack the variety and utility of the APPs. It's fairly obvious to most folks who've played CoH 40-50. Between Patrons the powers are very close to each other (1 armor, 1 AE blast, 1 end drain, etc...). Plus they don't have the great powers like Focused Acc, Power Build Up, Mind Over Body, Telekinesis, Earth's Embrace, etc. that we see in APPs.
While it's too late to do anything about that aspect thanks to the art being finished, I humbly suggest that the powers team make the PPP powers not just slightly better than hero side, but vastly better. If a Dominator is stuck with just toggle armors and a couple of blasts, make those armors and blasts awesome, better than values found in Primary/Secondary even. High values would balance themselves build-wise. Say a Stalker's Patron blasts are stronger than his melee attacks. While he can min-max into primarily Patron attacks and neglect his Primary, he will be effectively gimping himself for 3 of the 4 PVP zones and for any time he Malefactors down. Thus, it's a trade-off.
I truly feel that unless the powers themselves are obscenely strong, these PPPs will come off as a lot of eye candy without much substance to them, and highly skippable.
I apologize if this idea has been presented before. (it's tough searching for general ideas sometimes) I think this could possibly bring some equality to both CoH and CoV.
Why not simply (not that it would be easy) add Patron pools to CoH and Ancillary pools to CoV?
Look at it this way. You have a villain who has spent enough time in the Rogue Isles and has seen just how underhanded Arachnos can be. There is no way they would want to be tied with Arachnos in anyway so they look around for more power and come across what could end up being the ancillary pool powers, only rethought for Villains.
Same idea for Heroes, only this time the hero has seen the strength and dedication of the Freedom Phalanx and would like to go down the path of one of the Phalanx members. Sure you'd only be able to have 4 of them, but imagine being able to pick from the Positron Patron pool, or Manticore, or Sister Psyche.
Yes, the Hero Patron pools would take some time to develop, and even figuring out what powers could be 'rehashed' for villains would take some time as well.
In the end though, both Heroes and Villains would have even more options open to them and no one could complain about being forced into anything.
Just a thought.
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
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Many have complained that this hinders creativity and roleplaying. After all, not everyone wants to be a villain that works for Arachnos. Certainly, a large strength of the City franchise has always been its customizability. To a degree, the Patron powers somewhat inhibit this by compelling people into working for certain Arachnos agents. The powers also do not dovetail perfectly into current power sets.
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It was never a problem for ME, but I think I see what other people are griping about: you've spoiled everyone with all this freedom! CoH and CoV up until now have offered such broad customization and freedom of character concept, that it's kind of jarring when a frankly standard level of MMO concept restriction is suddenly introduced.
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That is, honestly, a big part of the problem for me (well, that and the fact that my dominator is not going to be looking forewards to more immobilizes and ranged damage, but that aside). One of the things I loved best about the CoH world is that while you are constrained a bit by powersets and archetype, you're pretty much free to make whatever type of character and motivation you like - mercenary? Nice Golden-Agey "good guy"? Whatever. It's less story-driven, which some people don't like, but I find refreshingly open-ended after other games like WoW. By comparison, the very concept behind the PPPs is much more limiting. I'd originally designed my villain characters with the idea that they'd grow independently like heroes, which didn't seem an unreasonable expectation given the heroside game. Guess it was, though.
Really, though, I hope you consider putting together some more generic APPs villainside and probably some PPPs heroside in the future (maybe I8?), so people like me that like a more "open" game can get what we want, and those who love the idea of working for factions can get what they want.
I mean, it doesn't bother me that some people think the PPPs are the awesomest idea ever. That's great, and good for them! I'm just disappointed there's not really an option for those who look at them and think "meh", for character reasons or power choice reasons or just plain aesthetic reasons (admittedly the shark graphics look really cool and your art team did a great job, but damn, I think I'd be too embarrassed to actually use any of them).
- Laurentide
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Also, tell your powers guys that we liked it better as Chum Spray! Some Blasters are still calling their level 49 power Foce of Nature; you can change the power name, but we're still gonna call it Chum Spray whether you like it or not.
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I remember bugging the hell out of poz and pohsyb when I5 hit test and they renamed the FOCE "Force of Nature." How boring! Statesman, you can make this right. Give us back the FOCE!
Also: rename Bile Spray "FOCE Spray" if you have to.
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I like the Patron Powers, I like the reddish electricity, it's cool all around, imho. Sadly, hardly anyone seems to agree.
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Same here.
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ditto.
though I did find it kind of amusing that for the first 15 or so pages of this thread there were maybe 4 people who were in favor of Patron Powers and now, since Statesman has graced this thread with his presence (yes I'm sucking up, can we have issue 7 now?), all of the pro PPP people are coming out of the woodwork.
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You know, for *once* I completely love a piece of design by the devs, and what happens?
Everyone else hates it.
I like the Patron Powers, I like the reddish electricity, it's cool all around, imho. Sadly, hardly anyone seems to agree.
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Lol <;.;> You and me both! <,<;
The red lightning I've loved ><; the design idea about Arachnos is also very cool imho; Honestly, I'd prefer heroes get Patron pools of their own as opposed to the current epics.
Maybe I'm just biased though; because I'm a scrapper hero side and my epics kinda suck <-.->;
Oh well >.> I like it; but no one is obligated to of course.
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You know, for *once* I completely love a piece of design by the devs, and what happens?
Everyone else hates it.
I like the Patron Powers, I like the reddish electricity, it's cool all around, imho. Sadly, hardly anyone seems to agree.
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I'm with ya.
Be well, people of CoH.
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States, is there anything being planned for those who would rather remain independant?
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Pretty much the same as for COH with people who don't care for the APP choices. You don't have to choose an patron. You can remain independant and fill the 41-49 power slots with others that you have had access from 1-40.
I, for one, like the idea of choosing a Patron, and having that choice be permanent. At least, so long as we're informed before the choice. I see it as entering into a pact with that faction of Arachnos - you work for them, and in exchange you get some of the secrets of their power(s). It doesn't have to be a master/slave relationship; it can be a "mutual benefit" relationship.
I also like the red-lightning Mu-juice. I can't wait for power customization (however many years it may take), simply because it'll toss up the variations in CoX even more. I'm even hoping the dinky "pyeeewt" Electrical Blast sfx in CoH get replaced by the "1.21 gigawatts of power" sound that the Mu mystics' lightning powers have...
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Theres been a ton of discussion regarding Patron Power Pools, so I thought Id at least give you a perspective from the design end.
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Thank you very much for this, it is most apreciated.
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During CoV development, I wanted to make sure that the game offered a different experience than CoH. One case of this was that CoV became far more focused on storyline and background than CoH was.
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Not really what i would have wanted, to tell the truth. I had expected the difference to be in the way the gameplay made us feel, in the ATs, power usage and the missions.
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We tried to create a vibrant villainous organization that players would want to be part of. For inspiration, I looked to the world of comic books, which are filled with cool, evil organizations.
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Just out of interest, could you name some of those organisations that inspired you, and some of the individual villains who joined them but don't run them?
And also, what was your reasoning for choosing just one organisation to base the game around, rather than many that battled with one another?
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The powers also do not dovetail perfectly into current power sets.
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Why was this decided upon? What was the design decision behind making the patrons powers so radically different?
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What fascinates me is how new this discussion is to the MMP world. Ive played lots of games over the years, and usually customization wasnt that big of an issue. I wont use any particular game as an example, but rather Ill take D&D 1st edition to demonstrate a difference. Magic Users then couldnt use swords. Just couldnt. They couldnt really wear armor, either. The major reason for this was balance: a sword wielding, armor wearing mage rendered any regular ole fighter pretty darn useless. There was certainly some grumbling after all, didnt Gandalf wield a sword? but pretty much its been accepted. In fantasy games today (online and other), the same limitations continue to apply
When designing City of Heroes, I remember a lot of people telling me that it was just plain wrong to give people so many costume choices in the beginning. People wanted to earn individuality over time, not receive it. Yet, to this day, I think character creation is the single most praised element of the City.
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It is certainly fasinating, from a certain point of view. But from the perspective of someone who has only ever played in the CoU (I have tried WoW and its not for me, due to setting and the battle system), What I can tell you is this: The customisation of my characters is my number one favourite thing about the games. I love the ability to just suddenly come up with an idea whilst playing, and log out to go make it. Every new powerset, costume piece or aura just makes my choices bigger and bigger. and I love that.
I will happily play in your setting, and interact with your characters. What I don't love is being forced to play a part in your story. To be honest, Arachnos isn't really that interesting. The only member who has shown anything aproaching an interesting story is Ghost Widow, and Lord R doesn;t sem to do much (and comes across as a bit of a dullard in the comic book so far).
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Positron and I will certainly keep this in mind for the future
oh, by the way, the reason that Electrical Power is reddish is so that it could mesh well with some Patron Powers. That was the intent, at least.
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I really think that was a bad design idea. Wouldn't it have been better to make the Patron powers blue? Or are all villain players who use electricty supposed to be Mu?
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And, unfortunately, Chum Spray has been renamed to Bile Spray. Our powers guys felt that Chum was just too campy.
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Fair enough. It also didn't really make that much sense, anyhow.
Thanks again, States
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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though I did find it kind of amusing that for the first 15 or so pages of this thread there were maybe 4 people who were in favor of Patron Powers and now, since Statesman has graced this thread with his presence (yes I'm sucking up, can we have issue 7 now?), all of the pro PPP people are coming out of the woodwork.
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Well, unhappy people are usually more vocal than those who are happy with the choices.
You don't hit smiling monsters - Sister Flame
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Also, tell your powers guys that we liked it better as Chum Spray! Some Blasters are still calling their level 49 power Foce of Nature; you can change the power name, but we're still gonna call it Chum Spray whether you like it or not.
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I remember bugging the hell out of poz and pohsyb when I5 hit test and they renamed the FOCE "Force of Nature." How boring! Statesman, you can make this right. Give us back the FOCE!
Also: rename Bile Spray "FOCE Spray" if you have to.
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FOCE Spray = Pimp. Too pimp for villains.
Just go back to FOCE of Nature and be done with it.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
You're right - most games won't allow anywhere close to the same degree of customization that CoX does. Maybe it's because you spoiled us but I at least have come to love the fact that I can create just about any concept I want here. I want to continue that and not be boxed in, though I truly do plan on (and already have - I love my Arachne!) some Arachnos oriented characters. For those that I don't want associated or for those that the current PPPs just don't mesh well color and theme wise with some of my characters - for them I would like to have a more generalized option or two.
A lot of this will wash away when/if we get power color customization. The red lightning issue I have won't be an issue when I can rehue it blue/white.
For the record I play other games but HATE how everyone looks the same in WoW (which doesn't even have clothing/armor dye). Games like EQ and DAoC at least offer dye to help change things up a little bit. This game by far rocks every other game I've tried in terms of customization. I'd just like to continue along that trend.
My Corner of DeviantART
The Queen's Menagerie
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Really, if you're so concerned about your villain's character being "tainted" by Patron Pools, you're just too uncreative to deal with it.
Not all of the Ancillary Pools fit my heroes. But you know what? I thought of ways that they could. Everyone complaining here isn't limited by the gamethey're limiting themselves.
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There is a huge dissimilarity between lack of imagination and the lack of tools to realize your imaginings.
For the record, I'm not saying I don't understand the complaints with them.
-Some don't let you stay "in theme"
-They're permanent
-They make you "work" for Arachnos
-There's little variety between the sets within an AT
and so on. All of these are valid complaints, IMHO. I just lucked out, this time, because none of the above are a concern for me. I've always wanted Lightning on my SS/Inv Tank, now I'm getting them on my Brute.
I've not been caring a lot for whom or against whom I "work" at the moment, so the Arachnos pawn thing doesn't bug me.
Also, I like my concepts to take an "unexpected turn" once in a while - so, even if there may not be a terribly good reason for my brute to suddenly have red lightning powers, I still like that he does. I don't enjoy micromanaging my character's backgrounds over 50 levels anyway, it's cool when they get some things that actually *weren't* planned.
I'd not be bitter if the complaints lead to the Devs making a copy of the Hero APPs instead of PPPs though, I'll just take the second best choice (Fire Mastery is also quite cool! 
)
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I really think that was a bad design idea. Wouldn't it have been better to make the Patron powers blue? Or are all villain players who use electricty supposed to be Mu?
[/ QUOTE ] Well, there is that one story arc where you find that book that proves there's some absurdly huge percentage of the world's population that's in some way descended from the Mu. So it wouldn't be that much of a strech I suppose.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
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I really think that was a bad design idea. Wouldn't it have been better to make the Patron powers blue? Or are all villain players who use electricty supposed to be Mu?
[/ QUOTE ] Well, there is that one story arc where you find that book that proves there's some absurdly huge percentage of the world's population that's in some way descended from the Mu. So it wouldn't be that much of a strech I suppose.
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And it just so happened that none of them ended up as heroes?
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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I like the Patron Powers, I like the reddish electricity, it's cool all around, imho. Sadly, hardly anyone seems to agree.
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Same here.
I forget when Patrons were first mentioned. I know it was quite a while back, but when I heard about the chance to take up Makoor Ghost Widow (which, admittedly, disappointed me when I found that I'd have to take at least one dark blast power) as a Patron, I was as excited as could be. Then I noticed that a lot of people disliked the idea and I felt a bit stranded. Ah well. At least I'll be happy. =D
[/ QUOTE ]You won't be alone there.... I kinda like the concept. The unrespecable part bother me a little but other than that, I'm okay with it.
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I don't think you'll *have to* take at least one power. You *could* just unlock one pool set and never take the powers from it.
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I really think that was a bad design idea. Wouldn't it have been better to make the Patron powers blue? Or are all villain players who use electricty supposed to be Mu?
[/ QUOTE ] Well, there is that one story arc where you find that book that proves there's some absurdly huge percentage of the world's population that's in some way descended from the Mu. So it wouldn't be that much of a strech I suppose.
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***Spoilers***
In that same arc you are cursed by a CoT mage so that "your fate is tied to the fate of the Mu". My Tech/Bots/Trap Mastermind is taking this and running with it. After being cursed he began research on incorporating the Mu magic into his machines. He's now going to Siricco with plans to develop a new line of "MuBots" using his own body as a prototype.
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I did like chum. Recalled the great 7-Up commercial with a taste test...
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I still say that you can maintain the "feel" of Chum Spray by calling it Chyme Spray. It's accurate, and, more importantly, sounds less campy than Chum Spray, but less...wimpy than Bile Spray.
"I see your words..." ~The most menacing thing a forumite could say
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What fascinates me is how new this discussion is to the MMP world. Ive played lots of games over the years, and usually customization wasnt that big of an issue. I wont use any particular game as an example, but rather Ill take D&D 1st edition to demonstrate a difference. Magic Users then couldnt use swords. Just couldnt. They couldnt really wear armor, either. The major reason for this was balance: a sword wielding, armor wearing mage rendered any regular ole fighter pretty darn useless. There was certainly some grumbling after all, didnt Gandalf wield a sword? but pretty much its been accepted. In fantasy games today (online and other), the same limitations continue to apply
When designing City of Heroes, I remember a lot of people telling me that it was just plain wrong to give people so many costume choices in the beginning. People wanted to earn individuality over time, not receive it. Yet, to this day, I think character creation is the single most praised element of the City.
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Just as an aside 3.5 edition D&D allows for that mage to wear armor and carry a sword. He spends feats and takes spell failure for it but he can do it if he wants. D&D apparently thought more choice is what the people want.
One of the failures of some MMO (since we aren't naming names) is that they lack costume customization. As a matter of fact I know one where they make seprate RP servers that has had many many posters complain that all of one race or another look alike and that all armor at the top end looks too similar. The fact that costumes in Co* are customizable is a big draw and I really enjoy that. I think it is one of the great strengths of Co* prehaps you might take a second look and see how many others thinks that as well.
I think the problem is, Statesman, you gave us choices. Now we want more
Maybe you guys could work in a fifth contact - (CoT since you really seem to like them in CoV) that "trains you in the elements" - and would instead grant some access to the APPs?
not now, of course. That would delay I7 even more. But maybe for a patch, or the next Issue?
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