I'm a little disappointed.

[ QUOTE ]
I think that pretty much everyone can agree that choosing not to play the game is not a winning move (except in the case of global thermonuclear war).

[/ QUOTE ]

Post 40 CoH, your character has evolved to the point of epic power- your "secondary mutation" has kicked in, you can now control the earth, you have control over your own body to perform epic feats of endurance or accuracy, etc, etc, etc....
Post 40 content for CoH is worth the reward. You gain power that makes even the most harden villian quake in their boots.

Post 40 CoV, you are working to get......dark blast?, A pet? A single target hold? Chum spray? Spirit sharks? A mace? Sorry, a Mace? I have the spider smasher badge, if my villian had wanted a mace she would HAVE a mace by now. There is nothing epic to me about the P3s, you won't make the heroes quake in their boots.....they'll just laugh at you as they cave your head in and then sell your pet to the highest bidder in the zig. In CoV, your post 40 evolution is dependant on the patron of your choice, but not really because the P3s are mostly the same across the board.

Someone posted that you need the APP's in Coh because of the threat you face- that is freaking COOL! This tells me though for the post 40 content in CoV you will be facing things that will not be all that spectacular.

And I don't need to wait and see to find out what dark blast does, I know what it does, I can go to SC and get a web grenade if I want a single target hold. I know how a pet handles.

I agree with the OP in every regard.....'cept for the limited costume options....The costume options for CoV don't seem evil, but they have what would be percieved as evil, like the chains and skulls and what not- but nothing that smacks of evil....you are not adorning yourself in the mane of your enemy, nor keeping a bible made out of their flesh.....Of course rated T you can only get so much.

[ QUOTE ]

Wow. PPPs work so well overall, thematically, that the best you can offer is 'maybe, just maybe' it'll all be fine and good in a general sense. What a ringing endorsement. No marketing job for you, boyo.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oookay then. First, I'm not looking for a marketing job, "boyo". I'm not trying to sell PPPs to you. Or even myself. If you think I'm trying to endorse PPPs, you havn't understood a single word I've been saying. Sorry I havn't been more clear. I'll try.

I'm saying that I'll reserve any possible dislike of the PPPs (thematic or otherwise) until I've had a chance to check them out myself.

If my personal preference is a 'general sense', then I guess I have a lot more sway with the community than I realized.

[ QUOTE ]

Quote: "Perhaps you will have a happier life if you wait with the hate 'till you have something better than press releases to base it on. Like, say, five minutes of experience. "
This is your response to a post that offered no hate in the first place. It politely offered examples of how someone could know that the PPPs won't work with their villain concept because you declared that everyone is ignorant of how well PPPs might mesh. It's a decree you issue - it's derision. It works better when the post you reply to inflammatory instead of just respectfully in disagreement.


[/ QUOTE ]

You keep harping on this one, so I guess I better respond to it. I never claimed fluency in English, so maybe the point didn't come across as well as I'd have liked.

I guess my general feelings towards games of this sort can be summed up with that trite old saying "don't worry, be happy."

The guy (sorry, I forget who) was complaining that there was no logical advancement for, say, a stone brute. And other examples. Expressing a "dissatisfaction" (refered to as 'hate' previously, sorry if that was offensive) with the patron pool options.

Well. That's true. There's no "logical" advancement for my rad/rad defender in CoH either. Maybe level 40 - 50 will suck for him. Maybe I can live with other (nonthematic) epic powers. Maybe instead I'll spend those new power slots on radiation powers I skipped on my way to 40. Maybe once (if) he hit 41 I'll come here and complain about it, two years too late

My point is that you simply cannot cater to everybody's desires all the time. There are plenty powersets I don't like. Someone is bound to not like the PPPs. That's fair enough. It happens. But I just don't understand not liking them before trying them. Maybe it sounds awful... well, worst that can happen is that you're proven right.

It might look like you won't like the PPPs, and once you have a chance to swing that mace, shoot that lightning or hit someone over the head with a large trout.. err.. shark, it's quite possible that your predictions come true.

But there's a chance you might like it, too.

I'm just saying it makes more sense to dislike the PPPs when you know you don't like them, instead of when you think you won't like them

Prior to the CoV beta, I was pretty hyped about Brutes. I really like the scrapper playstyle, and these guys seems to have an abundance of that.

But. Actually playing my first brute... I found it kinda dull. And I havn't felt motivated to play one past level 14 yet. All the information in the world about brutes didn't prepare me for the *feel* of actually playing one. And it was a feel that just didn't sit well with me for some reason.

So what does that little story teach us? Well. Probably nothing. It tells me that it works best for me to wait and see. Seeing pictures of powers and reading about the powers and what have you, just isn't enough to give me an indication whether I'll like it or not.

I see a lot of people jumping the gun here. So, I suggest waiting because it works for me. Maybe it doesn't work for anyone else... it's just my opinion. And these forums would be pretty barren if it was illegal to post personal opinions

Anyway. Others have expressed my point much better than I could ever hope to, so with no further ado... *crawls back in his hole*

I believe my point is being lost in this discussion, so I would like to restate it. This is not a matter of "can't," this is a matter of "don't want to." I CAN fit my concepts into the framework presented, but I really, really DON'T WANT TO.

The comparison to Stamina was a good one. I never wanted Stamina, even when people were telling me I HAD to have it. So I didn't take it on any of my characters. I haven't taken Stamina on any character to this day. I slogged through a game ballanced around 6-slotted Stamina, slotted tons of endurance reducers, rested like an astmathic kitten every few steps of the way and never raised my difficulty above the second one, and even that only to get bosses.

Much in the same vein, I do not like the Patron Powerpools. There's nothing to test. There are no stone Patrons, and that's what I wanted. So I'll do what I've always done. I'll play the game as best I can without taking the Patron powers. If I'll miss out on cool stories, then so be it. If I'll miss out on great power, then so be it. My concept is more valuable to me than any part of the story of the game. I have suffered for that before, and I will suffer for it again, it would seem.

But that's not the point. Life goes on and there's still a game worth playing post 40. And play it I will, there's no reason not to. But I am just no longer as enthusiastic about it as I was. I'm also no longer enthusiastic about new additions to the game. As Taser said, the developers are really trying to tie us into the story, and I know that to a lot of people that is a good thing. To me, it is a bad thing, and I'm not excited about where this is going. I'm starting to think that I'll never see what I want, because what I want is (or appears to be) old news for the developers.

To be honest, what I really want is a choice. I've never been one to decry an addition just because I don't like it. Sure, I may not like it, but I'm certain others would, and this game does not revolve around me. But I do want a choice in having a viable alternative that accomplishes what I want.

In a sense, City of Heroes has given me expectations. I played this game for the longest time, and I loved every minute of it. I expected City of Villains to be similar. I mean, why fix something that isn't broken? But apparently the powers that be fealt it was broken, and I just don't like the fix. So my expectations turned out to be false. The choice I expected to have simply wasn't there. Instead, I had to choose between something that I never even expected to see, or understood the need for. Since then I've accpeted both the need and the merits of this addition, but I have not lost my desire to have what I used to. And, unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be on the list of "anytime soon."

But it's not just Patron Powerpools. The whole game and the whole atmosphere is being severely warped into a mold. We are evil. We are told we're evil. We are shown we're evil. We are made to do evil. Constantly we are bombarded with red and black colour shcemes, ghettos, drunken bums, crime, slavery, more slums and ghettos, the darkest nights I've seen in my life, every night, days as dark as Paragon City's nights. And now red electricity. Can we get any more overt?

I don't want to ooze evilnessnessness. I don't want to be a neon advertisment for Evils-R-Us. I don't need to be told, shown, demonstrated and reiterated that I'm evil. I KNOW I am, I made the character. I want a subtle-looking villain. I want a concept that is less overt, less evil-looking. I understand that some people like that, and that's what the chains, spikes, skulls, horns, hooves, ugly faces and so forth are for. I may not use them, but I understand the need to have them.

But I don't need to be, say, a demon from hell come to eat children and kick puppies to shoot fire. No, I can be a little girl called Cindy, who likes kittens and white, fluffy clouds if I so fancied, and still be able to shoot fire. But if red electricity is anything to go by, that will not always be the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I do agree with Tow very much on the nature of the PPP's. Thematicaly they're just very "Meh"...there's very little synergy between them and the current power sets...unless you play Dark, then you have it in spades.

I know this isn't overly important to a lot of players but it is to me. So what...suddenly my Ice/Ice Dominator gains the ability to Harness the power of darkness or electricity? Yes I can fit it into the background but it bothers me to do so.

Honestly...I really would have just preferred if they just ported over the CoH Epp's as is (change a few for MM's I assume) And then connect them to a patron.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe my point is being lost in this discussion, so I would like to restate it. This is not a matter of "can't," this is a matter of "don't want to." I CAN fit my concepts into the framework presented, but I really, really DON'T WANT TO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sam brings up an interesting point. How much content throughout CoX do we honestly consider "optional"?

Hamidon? The respec trials? Hasten? Additional costume pieces? The list is probably almost as long as the list of available content in the game.

We don't get particularly judgmental of player/posters who certain kind of build choices, let's say -- Stamina-less Stone Tankers. We try and educate those who may not know better, but there are often times reasonable justifications for making such decisions. It's their choice.

Likewise, we find it perfectly reasonable for a player to not necessarily have done every mission, arc or TF on a given character.

I wonder if no small part of the resistance to PPPs is their unique confluence of the powerset/build and overarching story narrative. The closest we have (and it's a stretch) could be the respec trials, which don't really have too much of an impact on build choices themselves. Nevertheless, they let us play the meta-game within the context of the game.

Likewise, I can see the argument that Ghost Widow's vaguely necro/psi powers don't work for a lot of toon concepts. But it seems to me like maybe it misses that there's explicit narrative surrounding those power choices; that a character has become heavily invested in the hierarchy of Arachnos to the point of having been granted extraordinary powers.

I don't doubt that there are plenty of characters for whom that won't work; but we have plenty of instances of selective conceptual and narrative conceits throughout the rest of the game -- why should this be that different?

Sam, I guess I come at it from the other angle. I think the CoV story is pretty fun. I like the fact that we have the opportunity to tie our characters more closely to the story and major NPCs. I never wanted a superhero simulator, I wanted a fun superhero game.

If anything I wish origins mattered a bit more, and that say, by completing certain key missions costume options would unlock so that we could show our alignment to certain factions more closely.

Anyway, different take on it I guess. I like the way things are heading. Well, except for PvP. That can just die, or move it to it's own server. Whatever.

Agreed.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth:

When I first read about the Patron Powers I have to say I wasn't happy with them. I knew right away there would be characters of mine that wouldn't take any of them. But I also have characters that would never wear a cape, or take hasten because I don't want them to have flaming hands, or take certain powers just because without them I'm gimped (by someone else's standards, not my own). However, it's my choice. No one is saying I have to take PPPs.

I also don't have a problem with being locked into the PPPs with any characters of mine that take them. I'm not a respec ho. I take my powers and live with my choices. I think the only respecs I've used were the freebies, and only then to sell back enhancements on characters I was deleting, so that I could pass the inf on to another character. I don't min/max, I don't follow the FoTM. But that's me. So being locked in doesn't concern me at all at this point. With the power sets being so similar, does it really matter if you're locked in?

I don't have a problem with power colors. Sam might be upset that brute electric is red, I wonder why GW's powers are purple. Is it Gothic? I'm told purple and black are Goth colors, maybe so. In the end though it doesn't really matter to me. At the risk of sounding simple, I like all the pretty colors. I could make an argument that electricity should be white, or yellow-white as it appears in nature, but this is a game set in a comic book world and nature doesn't always apply. I'm not going to lose my enthusiasm for CoV because of a power's color. I don't mean to belittle your disappointment, Sam. I guess if I couldn't make a power's colors work with my character I'd make my character work with the power's colors. I'd sort of tackle it from the opposite direction.

Case in point: I wanted to try out a Ice/Cold corruptor. I'd played around with an ice controller and a storm defender in CoH, so I knew what the powers looked like. Just because I'm a villain doesn't mean I have to look dark, some of the most villainous people of our times looked harmless. So I came up with this costume: Link . She looks like she could be a hero. (I actually like her costume and will probably bring her to the anniversary party because she looks sort of silver age comic-style, though maybe I'll shorten the boots.)

The thing with the PPPs that disappoints me is that MMs are losing their uniqueness by the PPPs offering pets to every other AT. Even that isn't going to dampen my enthusiasm though, I love CoV. I liked CoH.

Oh, and as to the PPPs being locked in, why is no one addressing Positron's statement in an interview here: MMORPG.com

[ QUOTE ]
The Patron Powers are stronger and more powerful than the “equivalent” powers in City of Heroes (the Ancillary Power Pools), because there is less diversification and the fact that Patron choices are permanent alterations to your character.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all the complaints about being locked into PPPs, my fear is that if TPTB decide to change that aspect the powers will have to be weakened. There is going to be a trade-off, as there already was with the powers being locked in. I don't want to wind up with villain epic powers that are on par with the regular power pools. That would greatly disappoint me.

Just thought I'd weigh in a bit re: costume options. Samuel, while I am in complete agreement with you about character direction and creative control (let me repeat that: I am in complete agreement with you about character direction and creative control), I have to say that you're being a little unfair by praising CoH's costume options and decrying CoV's. Is there a disproportionate amount of "whips & chains" goth gear in CoV? Sure. But look at the big CoH update where they gave us a bunch of different "anime" style ... shirts. And ... pants. Did we really need 5 new kinds of generic shirts? I don't really think so. You see those Korean style pants used much? Me either.

CoV has some great non-goth additions to costume options - pinstripe overlays, top hats, werewolf hair, 1001 face mask patterns, military uniforms, a couple new pairs of goggles, etc. I've been very happy with the villains I've been able to design. And Issue 7 will have new robot parts and plant limbs, I've read, and who knows what else. (Probably not more barbed wire, though you never know.) Yes, there is a huge, even ridiculous amount of goth stuff, but I don't take this to mean that CoV is destroying character diversity any more than a bunch of stupid looking pants destroyed character diversity in CoH. And let's not forget that CoV had 90% or more of the CoH options available out of the box - making your cute little pyro girl or a thousand other "subtle" designs very doable.

Red lightning. Am I crazy about it? No. It does make me look forward to my planned E/E Brute a little less. I'll try it out, and if I can't stand how it looks, I'll trash the character. But CoH is not thoroughly un-guilty of alienating people with power set graphics. Take a poll of AR Blasters, see how many say they think the Assault Rifle looks "impressive and cool" and how many say it looks "stupid as hell, but I like the powers so whatever".

God, ain't that the truth. The Super Soaker has managed to resist change all this time, too.

Yes, you're right. I did come off more harsh towards the leather and chains additions that CoV brought to the costume generator. I personally don't like them, but I didn't mean for my dislike to be portrayed as objective disapproval. It's not, that's just something I don't like. It's also not something I can decry without being a hypocrite, as I really see a need for them in the game.

No, the costumes were a cheap-shot means to illustrate my point - they provide enough choices to allow me to look the way I want to and not look the way I don't want to. That is good, and that is what I want about powers, as well. For the longest time I thought I could put up with the powers, but it appears I was just lucky to like most of them.

And as for the assault rifle model, I may be the only player of CoH who actually likes it There just doesn't seem to be a way to stich in a clip, grenade launcher, flamethrowers, gas tank and rocket launcher on a rifle without making it into a frankengun. I probably won't mourn the loss of the model if it were chaged, but I like it as it is. And if it is ever changed, I'd like to have the option to keep it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

[ QUOTE ]
And as for the assault rifle model, ... I probably won't mourn the loss of the model if it were chaged

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh man, I would. I love that thing.

Samuel I think your effort would be better spent advocating adding APP's to a future issue, and pushing for power customization as soon as it can be released. Its to late at this stage to have either the PPP's change or the color of electric melee for villains changed. But its not to early to push for getting what you want fixed. I'm basically trying to nudge you in a positive direction for your efforts.

I personally don't mind the PPP's as implimented, I'll not get them on every villain I have but I can see it. And red lightning doesn't actually put me off. But I can understand that, I do get put off when I play my AR blaster and desperately wish I could customize that weapon some way shape or form. The same with my broadsword scrapper I just created, he is dark based and having his broadsword dark or limmed in dark would be wicked keen. So if you were pushing for power custimization I could be out there with you argueing its needed sooner rather than later.

I would actually like to see something like the patron powers for the COH side come out at some point in the future, the themed way the work is over all nice. Sure some of the powers I'm not sure should have kept the same name or power choice but over all its a nice way to go.

I can understand how off putting it can be to have the game go one way and you want to go another, I resently got one of my characters to 30 after 2 years of playing and was very put off by the aura misssion and explanation. Here I had my magic based character getting a tech/science upgrade to his powers that causes the aura? Umm, it would have been nice to have the aura mission be tied to origion. Oh well they didn't do it that way, so I went ahead with it and got my aura. So back to my opening point, at this time the best way to proceed is to push for APP's in a future release and power customization.

[ QUOTE ]
Its to late at this stage to have ... the color of electric melee for villains changed.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, please. They just need to change that one spot in the code where it says 255 0 0 to 224 255 255. kthx

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its to late at this stage to have ... the color of electric melee for villains changed.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, please. They just need to change that one spot in the code where it says 255 0 0 to 224 255 255. kthx

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong, from discussions of power customization that have been answered its much much more involved than that. Which is why we don't already have the ability to do things like change the color of our powers.

Gotcha!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its to late at this stage to have ... the color of electric melee for villains changed.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, please. They just need to change that one spot in the code where it says 255 0 0 to 224 255 255. kthx

[/ QUOTE ]

If they wrote code correctly, you'd be right.

But we'd have had shared mission completion and newspaper-style missions hero side by now if they did that.

Oh I do wish it was that easy, as I mentioned I have a few characters who could use a tweak here or there, and how many would instantly remove the pink pom-poms of doom if they could.

My understanding of this, and it is based on memory not not looking back for the post specifically. First they need to redo the powers animation in a grey scale, and that is all of the animation involved with that power. Apparently some effects are built up from several different individual pieces. After they redo all of the art then they can start to add a way to customize it.

Add in that we have a figure of about 1.5 months to create the art for a new power set. I can see where going back and redoing all of the power sets to a grey scale format would take some time. And my impression is that its an ongoing project but because new power sets are higher priority and power animation for new opponants are higher priority it will take even more time before we see this.

All this said the devs have intimated that weapon costomization might be doable sooner. And have hinted we might see something along that lines first. So even though they want this as well, its going to take time for the ground work to be prepared. At that point your idea of changing 1 bit to another works and it becomes easy to do.

Oh, I would agree that changing power colours is not as simple as changin a few variables. A lot of powers are made up of several sprites, or several arrays of sprites, and a lot have 3D components to them, with their own textures and geometry.

The developers have shown that, creation time notwithstanding, they can easily swap out animations, sprites colours and shapes. Once. Even if changed, those things remain hard-coded and editable only at a code level, not an interface level. For us to be able to edit the colours of our powers, this needs to be made dynamic and integrated into the interface in some way, and that's just a whole lot of work to do.

I can see how it would be a lot of work, that's why I don't believe I'd live to see it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

There’s been a ton of discussion regarding Patron Power Pools, so I thought I’d at least give you a perspective from the design end.

When we release levels 41-50 in CoH, we quickly realized that these levels didn’t offer any new powers. Players would be choosing from powers that were already available. While extra powers are nice, it isn’t very interesting. So we asked ourselves what would players want? All Archetypes chafed under their limitations – Tankers had no range, Blasters no defense, etc. – so we thought we give each Archetype the ability to choose lesser versions of powers that would address their weaknesses. Unfortunately, new powers are incredibly art intensive. Instead of making new sets, we choose pre-existing powers and renamed them as Ancillary Power Pools.

During CoV development, I wanted to make sure that the game offered a different experience than CoH. One case of this was that CoV became far more focused on storyline and background than CoH was. We tried to create a vibrant villainous organization that players would want to be part of. For inspiration, I looked to the world of comic books, which are filled with cool, evil organizations. I also wanted our villain versions of “ancillary power pools” to be unique; with the emphasis on Arachnos, I decided to create the Patron system.

Many have complained that this hinders creativity and roleplaying. After all, not everyone wants to be a villain that works for Arachnos. Certainly, a large strength of the City franchise has always been its customizability. To a degree, the Patron powers somewhat inhibit this by compelling people into “working” for certain Arachnos agents. The powers also do not dovetail perfectly into current power sets.

What fascinates me is how new this discussion is to the MMP world. I’ve played lots of games over the years, and usually customization wasn’t that big of an issue. I won’t use any particular game as an example, but rather I’ll take D&D 1st edition to demonstrate a difference. Magic Users then couldn’t use swords. Just couldn’t. They couldn’t really wear armor, either. The major reason for this was balance: a sword wielding, armor wearing mage rendered any regular ole fighter pretty darn useless. There was certainly some grumbling – after all, didn’t Gandalf wield a sword? – but pretty much it’s been accepted. In fantasy games today (online and other), the same limitations continue to apply…When designing City of Heroes, I remember a lot of people telling me that it was just plain wrong to give people so many costume choices in the beginning. People wanted to earn individuality over time, not receive it. Yet, to this day, I think character creation is the single most praised element of the City.

If I were to wax philosophical for a moment – I wonder whether it’s the genre (super heroes), the medium (City of Heroes) or the nature of the internet which has led to a greater demand for individuality. MMP’s, for the most part, are simply direct descendants of D&D, as described above. The gameplay, the mechanics, have pretty much followed the same pattern for ALL computer RPG’s. There’s certainly some demand for customization in other games (as I read on their boards), but it’s never quite the same as it is here for CoH. Maybe it’s because super heroes, by definition, are unique; thus, to play a super hero game a player wants to have those choices. But then I look at the internet, where we demand customization even down to our e-mail address. No one wants to be given a particular address, we almost always choose our own “handles.” Heck, I use the same name in nearly every MMP game to this day, as if it were my own digital shadow. Hopefully, some academic will look for this in the future.

Positron and I will certainly keep this in mind for the future…oh, by the way, the reason that Electrical Power is reddish is so that it could mesh well with some Patron Powers. That was the intent, at least. And, unfortunately, Chum Spray has been renamed to Bile Spray. Our powers guys’ felt that Chum was just too campy.

Hey, Statesman lives!

[ QUOTE ]
And, unfortunately, Chum Spray has been renamed to Bile Spray. Our powers guys’ felt that Chum was just too campy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Noooooooooooooooo! I was so looking forward to the innuendo laden typos that the word "chum" promised!

I did like chum. Recalled the great 7-Up commercial with a taste test...

[ QUOTE ]
We tried to create a vibrant villainous organization that players would want to be part of.

[/ QUOTE ]

They've spent the last 40 levels attacking me on sight! If I want to be a part of them, it's only so I can subvert them from within.

You know, for *once* I completely love a piece of design by the devs, and what happens?

Everyone else hates it.

I like the Patron Powers, I like the reddish electricity, it's cool all around, imho. Sadly, hardly anyone seems to agree.