I'm a little disappointed.

Well, that in itself speaks volumes about our community, I would say. I don't have a lot of experience with other MMOs and their communities, but ours seems to have a great many players truely interested in the game, the fiction and the story, as opposed to the game's mechanics and statistics.

I won't berate the so called powergamers for playing as they find fun, but I will admit that this is foreign to me. I will also admit that while I do respect their right to play as they wish under the system, I feel more comfortable around people less concerned about mechanics and more concerned about immersion.

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It's still an important concern, powergamers or no. There are a lot of people who if something is powerful enough feel compelled to take it. But they don't like feeling compelled to take it. You know what I mean?

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[ QUOTE ]
He also didn't say "This won't change, and here's why." He just said "Huh. You know, nobody complains about that in WoW. Isn't that interesting?"

Codswallop. People do complain about it in WoW. You just can't hear them over a million b.net freaks who only care about how fast they can kill another PC that never had a chance in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]


Fine, whatever. It doesn't change the fact that that's what he said. Go back and read it. He's talking about how neat it is that people want this, not justifying why it isn't in the game.

And no, I haven't once heard people say "But I picture my mage in armor." If they want armor, it's usually because they don't want to die. Furthermore, if their primary concern was customization, they would all come here in droves.

That said, many people do come here just for the customization, and Statesman thinks that's nifty. It's not a terribly useful post on his part, but there you go.

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[ QUOTE ]
He points out that PnP RPGs had arbitrary rules (like "Mages can't use swords or wear armor"), and that MMOs have followed suit. A mage in World of Warcraft CONTINUES to be a "Cloth wearer." Your clothing determines your stats, so WoW characters wear stupid hats for the bonus. The only customization most MMOs give you were a few changes to your face.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point was that the arbitrary rules in PnP RPGs are not the straitjacket they are in CoH. "Wizards can't wear armor" in D&D was practically the equivalent of "men can't wear high heels" in CoH. Wizards could be just as unhittable as Sir Clanks-a-lot if they really wanted to be.

But even that is really secondary to the point that in PnP RPGs, players were just as demanding of "customization" as they are in CoH, not less. In PnP RPGs, that expressed itself in asking GMs to extend things, because there was an infinite number of ways to extend things. In MMOs, that is often expressed in breaking the rules because in computer MMOs, everything is governed by "rules." There are no rules in D&D that says men can't have shoulder kitties: the game is silent on that topic. In D&D, that which is not prohibited is allowed by default. In CoH, that which isn't explicitly allowed is prohibited by omission. That, more than anything else in my opinion, governs what people ask for in CoH (and MMOs in general).

There are lots of ways to give people a sense of uniqueness, and if they have any one of them, most players will channel themselves into it. WoW has crafting, and while you are certainly not the first person to make the Potion of Blowing Green Bubbles Underwater, you might be the first person of the people you know to do so. CoH has costumes, and I cannot tell you how many [dozens, hundreds of] hours I've spent in Icon. To the extent, though, that costumes provide a unique flavor but not a unique experience, costumes alone will probably always be somewhat insufficient to tame people's need to generate a unique experience for themselves.

MMO players are not different. MMOs are different, because they are much more rigid than even the most restrictive of PnP RPGs.


[ QUOTE ]
He didn't say this was a bad thing. In fact, I get the impression he's pleased. He's patting himself on the back for making a game where people feel so attached to their characters that they bristle at any percieved railroading or taking away of conceptual independence.

[/ QUOTE ]


I've argued several times in the past that taking the position "Isn't it great that people love their characters so much" and simultaneously "Things change and if you don't like change, perhaps this is not the game for you" is probably not a good idea.

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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

[ QUOTE ]
MMO players are not different.

[/ QUOTE ]
I beg to contest. While there is some crossover, I highly doubt any less than half of the people I've met on CoX, SWG, EQ, AO, or MxO would be able to sit through two sessions of D&D or M&M.

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MMO players are not different.

[/ QUOTE ]
I beg to contest. While there is some crossover, I highly doubt any less than half of the people I've met on CoX, SWG, EQ, AO, or MxO would be able to sit through two sessions of D&D or M&M.

[/ QUOTE ]

MMO players are not different with regard to the degree to which they seek out individuality.


Statesman:

[ QUOTE ]
If I were to wax philosophical for a moment – I wonder whether it’s the genre (super heroes), the medium (City of Heroes) or the nature of the internet which has led to a greater demand for individuality.

[/ QUOTE ]

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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

I just thought I should share some interesting reflections I had a couple of days ago that may pertain to this very topic. As you might remember from the beginning of the thread, I shared with you how excited I was about CoH's Epics and how unexcited and disappointed I was with CoV's PPPs. You might remember I explained at length how CoH's Epics allowed for such great freedom, and how CoV's PPPs gave me nothing to look forward to.

Well, I was wrong. You see, I had done something over a year ago that I had already forgotten about - I took a character to 50. That happened in January of last year, so my memory of the event and the process was understandably foggy. Recently, however, I began going over my old builds and characters. and I came accross something interesting.

Samuel Tow himself, 50 since as long as can remember, reminded me exactly how CoH's Epics aren't complete, themselves. He is a SR/Kat scrapper, and his concept and his build drove me to take Body Mastery. Conserve Energy for the soul, and Foccused Accuracy for the concept. None of the others really fit at all, to be honest. But then, neither did hald the Body Mastery pool, as there was NO way to reationalise Energy attacks. So what did I do? I took Stimulant and Aid Self, because they were sorta-in-concept. And the end result was that for the last 6 levels I had absolutely nothing to look forward to.

Wasn't that exactly what I was complaining about? Wasn't that exactly what was so disappointing? Well, not entirely, but that was a very, very large part of it. And I was wrong. I've gone through this once already, and somehow I didn't complain back then. So why am I complaining now? Honestly, I don't know. I suppose that all the concepts I've made since then (AR/Dev/Munitions and Dark/Dark/Dark mostly) have skewered my perception since then, and I have forgotten what I had been through.

I don't know, but I believe I just lost a whole lot of ground to base my disappointment on. I'll admit it, I was wrong. Even so, however, that doesn't make me like the PPPs, or look forward to them any more. It doesn't make me dismiss the problems we all see with them, and it doesn't make me want generic Epics any less. In a sense, nothing has changed. The direction of the game remains disappointing, as does the post 40 power selection. What has changed, however, is my will to play it through to the end. If I've done it once, then I can do it again. I may complain, but it no longer seems as hard as I believed it did.

Ah, how quicly we forget...

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