I'm a little disappointed.
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2006-04-25 09:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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And, unfortunately, Chum Spray has been renamed to Bile Spray. Our powers guys felt that Chum was just too campy.
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Well now I am disappointed. Those powers guys must take themselves far too seriously. Please reconsider this decision. I mean, seriously, if excessive campiness is a concern you have to drop Captain Mako's entire pool, but the camp is it's frickin' charm! CHUM SPRAY FTW!
Jeromus
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Really, if you're so concerned about your villain's character being "tainted" by Patron Pools, you're just too uncreative to deal with it.
Not all of the Ancillary Pools fit my heroes. But you know what? I thought of ways that they could. Everyone complaining here isn't limited by the gamethey're limiting themselves.
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QFT.
BTW, your avatar R0x0R5! Rorschach !
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Or, maybe we ARE creative enough to have our own character ideas and not wish to be bludgeoned into submission simply because of a LACK of creativity on their part?
"I see your words..." ~The most menacing thing a forumite could say
Well, that's certainly a medal for the rack. Not only did I get a red name responce to my post (which wasn't a mod warning), but I actually got THE man on the line. Score 
Too bad he's useurped my thread now, though.
A little more seriously, I do appreciate you taking the time to talk to us, states. While this certainly wasn't a showstopper, it appears to have bugged enough of us to bear a notice.
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If I were to wax philosophical for a moment I wonder whether its the genre (super heroes), the medium (City of Heroes) or the nature of the internet which has led to a greater demand for individuality.
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Actually, that's your own fault. You guys have given us so much customization in this game that I have not seen any other game come even close to, that we've been spoiled Before CoH, I was happy to be playing whoever the developers of a given game had written for me to play and didn't complain. A generic Barbarian? Fine, so be it. The great Dark Jedi Raven who had his memory wiped clean? OK.
But after finding a game where I could actually create a character of my own, just the way I wanted to, with just the right appearance and just the right powers... Well, I got used to it. A little too used to it, it would appear, as I was expecting more options that I should have. And that's why the Patron Powerpools disappointed me. I expected more options for my concept, and I got something else.
The truth is that I don't mind Patron Powersets. They're certainly an important part of CoV, and a good concept for SOME character. If anything, I'd like to see them come to CoH, so that we can cooperate with Miss Liberty, or Back Alley Brawler, or even the Statesman himself. I don't guarantee I'd take them, but I just might, and I have plenty of other choices if I don't want to.
However, what really disappointed me was this "different experience." This is directed to the public, but I didn't need the man to tell me he wanted to make CoV different for me to sense it. The game has changed in ways that tell exactly that story. And frankly, I'm not happy about it. The development team may have wanted something more out of CoH, but I didn't. It was perfect just the way it was - that's why I bought it in the first place.
Now, I wouldn't mind one bit if CoV were upgraded with a new feel and a new direction. What I do request, however, is that the old feel, or at least an option for it be preserved. I'll never complain about an addition, even if it's not something I'd use, as long as that which I'm used to remains an option.
What do I want? Simple Epics or equivalent in CoV, and Patrons or equivalent in CoH. The two games don't NEED to be different, as long as the option to have a different feel is there. It's a stupid decision to make, when I wonder if I should make a hero or villain depending on weather I want to be immersed in the storyline or not. It's an unfair choice to associate one with the other, and as it stands the choice between hero and villain takes more than concept into account. I'm not even talking about game systems and powersets. It's just that this different feel is irrevocably tied to our alignment, which it has nothing to do with.
But I do hope things will be equilised as time goes on.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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While the wax is still cooling, you may wish to consider how the innovation on your shiny CoV content might be compromising longevity on your Hero side. Short of some costume options, and a few bug and power fixes (maybe), Issue 7 looks to provide little to nothing for Non-PvPers in Paragon City. Yes, this was the 41-50 patch for your villains ... got it ... but Easter is over, Jack. When can we expect to start seeing eggs in the other basket?
Further, your desire to release ONLY unique content speaks almost as obsessively as the desire to squash herding and PLing. Both obsessions fall short of your mark, IMO. Unique ancillary power pools would have been sufficient for your villains. Linking them to patrons and making them permanent choices (with no chance of respec) is just another example of your cart leading the horse. I don't suppose it occurred to you that in addition to asking YOURSELVES what players would want (as far as powers 41-50 were concerned), you could also ask, I dunno ... US maybe? "Different and Unique" is not necessarily better.
With new issues slowed to a bi-annual trickle, and the content we are getting still heavily weighted on adjustment and PvP balance, I guess we're lucky you're still releasing any content at ALL. That's ok. My heroes can live on mac & cheese, and fish sticks ... but not forever, Mrs. Paul.
I don't suppose you'd care to officially report on what you've decided to do with Hover & Flight speed since your last "unique" adjustment (ED)? Costume choices and individuality "earned" discussions (while important) still pale in comparison to many lingering issues (like flight speed and other powers) still reeling from I6. I know it's a "waxy" stretch, but after all ... you seem to be used to your candles burning at both ends.
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If I were to wax philosophical for a moment I wonder whether its the genre (super heroes), the medium (City of Heroes) or the nature of the internet which has led to a greater demand for individuality.
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The internet's the new American Dream (TM) - a virtual dreamworld everyone can escape to and be the outstanding individual they always wanted to be in real life.
The "real world" experience has become gentrified - we all have the same work experience, the same shopping experience, the same everyday human existence. So we strive to break out and *feel* different. It's hard to be different in a world that governs everyone to live life in the same way so they become easier to manage. That may be the ethics of the universal workplace but life isn't supposed to be run like a business (alas the catch-22 of social herding instincts).
Sadly, it takes a computer game to make our dreams of individuality and existential grandeur possible in this day and age. So we pay to play and ride the COX wave to our dreams while we can. If you can continue to evolve COX in a direction that helps players feel more exclusive through their heroes and villains, the better off NCSoft and Cryptic Studios will be for an ever-growing membership base in the long run.
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Theres been a ton of discussion regarding Patron Power Pools, so I thought Id at least give you a perspective from the design end.
When we release levels 41-50 in CoH, we quickly realized that these levels didnt offer any new powers. Players would be choosing from powers that were already available. While extra powers are nice, it isnt very interesting. So we asked ourselves what would players want? All Archetypes chafed under their limitations Tankers had no range, Blasters no defense, etc. so we thought we give each Archetype the ability to choose lesser versions of powers that would address their weaknesses. Unfortunately, new powers are incredibly art intensive. Instead of making new sets, we choose pre-existing powers and renamed them as Ancillary Power Pools.
During CoV development, I wanted to make sure that the game offered a different experience than CoH. One case of this was that CoV became far more focused on storyline and background than CoH was. We tried to create a vibrant villainous organization that players would want to be part of. For inspiration, I looked to the world of comic books, which are filled with cool, evil organizations. I also wanted our villain versions of ancillary power pools to be unique; with the emphasis on Arachnos, I decided to create the Patron system.
Many have complained that this hinders creativity and roleplaying. After all, not everyone wants to be a villain that works for Arachnos. Certainly, a large strength of the City franchise has always been its customizability. To a degree, the Patron powers somewhat inhibit this by compelling people into working for certain Arachnos agents. The powers also do not dovetail perfectly into current power sets.
What fascinates me is how new this discussion is to the MMP world. Ive played lots of games over the years, and usually customization wasnt that big of an issue. I wont use any particular game as an example, but rather Ill take D&D 1st edition to demonstrate a difference. Magic Users then couldnt use swords. Just couldnt. They couldnt really wear armor, either. The major reason for this was balance: a sword wielding, armor wearing mage rendered any regular ole fighter pretty darn useless. There was certainly some grumbling after all, didnt Gandalf wield a sword? but pretty much its been accepted. In fantasy games today (online and other), the same limitations continue to apply
When designing City of Heroes, I remember a lot of people telling me that it was just plain wrong to give people so many costume choices in the beginning. People wanted to earn individuality over time, not receive it. Yet, to this day, I think character creation is the single most praised element of the City.
If I were to wax philosophical for a moment I wonder whether its the genre (super heroes), the medium (City of Heroes) or the nature of the internet which has led to a greater demand for individuality. MMPs, for the most part, are simply direct descendants of D&D, as described above. The gameplay, the mechanics, have pretty much followed the same pattern for ALL computer RPGs. Theres certainly some demand for customization in other games (as I read on their boards), but its never quite the same as it is here for CoH. Maybe its because super heroes, by definition, are unique; thus, to play a super hero game a player wants to have those choices. But then I look at the internet, where we demand customization even down to our e-mail address. No one wants to be given a particular address, we almost always choose our own handles. Heck, I use the same name in nearly every MMP game to this day, as if it were my own digital shadow. Hopefully, some academic will look for this in the future.
Positron and I will certainly keep this in mind for the future
oh, by the way, the reason that Electrical Power is reddish is so that it could mesh well with some Patron Powers. That was the intent, at least. And, unfortunately, Chum Spray has been renamed to Bile Spray. Our powers guys felt that Chum was just too campy.
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In reality, i don't mind being stuck with a partron. It's accually an insentive to play a few alts up to lvl 50, but i imagain THAT had NOTHING to do with making them perm now did it.
So long as i can run the content, pick my parton, but tell them to go bug off when they try and teach me how to summon sprit fishes, i'll be good. I want to run the content, but don't want the stupid powers. No offince, but the don't match a single concept i have right now. I'm not much into magic, you'll have to fogive me. And no, i'm not intresed in carrying around the big staff.
I know i know, "kingsnake, use your imagainon! You can come up with a way to make the powers fit your conept!" Prolly, but, frankly, i don't WANT to.
And i'm assuming that, since the power quest comes with a respec, the respec is given so you can respec into the patron powers, so that means i don't NEED to take them.
I do have one question. When I go good, and, I have at least 2 guys that will, how will that work? Have you though that far ahead? I'd just like to know that, by running the "perma" content, i'm not locked into being evil. I tend to doubt that, but hey, you never know.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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though I did find it kind of amusing that for the first 15 or so pages of this thread there were maybe 4 people who were in favor of Patron Powers and now, since Statesman has graced this thread with his presence (yes I'm sucking up, can we have issue 7 now?), all of the pro PPP people are coming out of the woodwork.
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Power of the Dev Digest. That and the fact that Samuel is one of the few that just doesn't like a lot of the current aspects of PPPs (which is fair) and many just have a more measured appreciation of them. The Devs know how to read posts for what they actually say even if some players don't.
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And, unfortunately, Chum Spray has been renamed to Bile Spray. Our powers guys felt that Chum was just too campy.
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Well now I am disappointed. Those powers guys must take themselves far too seriously. Please reconsider this decision. I mean, seriously, if excessive campiness is a concern you have to drop Captain Mako's entire pool, but the camp is it's frickin' charm! CHUM SPRAY FTW!
Jeromus
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Yes, if voting is taken into consideration. I vote for Chum Spray.
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You know, for *once* I completely love a piece of design by the devs, and what happens?
Everyone else hates it. 
I like the Patron Powers, I like the reddish electricity, it's cool all around, imho. Sadly, hardly anyone seems to agree.
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I'm right there with you. I actually designed Deadnaught with the thinking that he would align himself with Ghost Widow. The PPP is just another additional way towards that goal.
Customization and choice are some of the biggest draws of the City games; it can't be understated. I'm still eagerly anticipating power customization. I'd love to change the colors of my powers, and make my weapons look unique.
I would also like to echo the idea of adding Patron powers to CoH and Ancillary powers to CoV. That would greatly please 99% of the player base, I think.
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I would also like to echo the idea of adding Patron powers to CoH and Ancillary powers to CoV. That would greatly please 99% of the player base, I think.
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It would certainly be one way of decisively testing the popularity of the various options, anyway.
@Mindshadow
Would be very cool if you could change the energy corrupters to red energy bolts also!!!
So you painted yourself in a corner with making them permanent by tying it to a contact and a story arc and you are staying in that corner? This statement does nothing to address the future nerfs or buffs to other patron pools, creation of new ones or so I hope, changing of the minds like heroes have the option of doing.
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If I were to wax philosophical for a moment I wonder whether its the genre (super heroes), the medium (City of Heroes) or the nature of the internet which has led to a greater demand for individuality.*** and usually customization wasnt that big of an issue. ***Theres certainly some demand for customization in other games (as I read on their boards), but its never quite the same as it is here for CoH.
[/ QUOTE ] I think there are primarily three things at work:
1) In PnP D&D...your customization is manifest in your actions. How I interact with the NPC's (via the DM) makes me feel like an individual. In MMO/Console RPGS, I am always constrained. I cannot argue with NPCs, I cannot curry-favor, I cannot fight them unless given the option. I have very little opportunity to express myself in a video game beyond the axis the designers provide. The desire for individual expression remains even if it is not accommodated.
2) In PnP, you don't have 75 other people to distinguish yourself from. It didn't matter that all Rangers and Paladins had exactly the same powers in 1st edition because you're often the only Paladin or Ranger in your group. In DDO, pretty much all the fighters or mages look the same. There's little chance I'll remember someone visually from one day to the next as I pass them on the street. In CoH, if I were to see Mad Kow in his Holstein costume, I'd recognize him immediately. You gotta love that.
3) You've given us the option and once that expectation has been set, people take it for granted and often feel they are entitled to it...no matter how little they pay.
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People wanted to earn individuality over time, not receive it.
[/ QUOTE ] I can understand that anything earned is perceived to be of greater value. But the reality is that we don't earn our own individuality, we express it. Letting us express it from the beginning was the right thing to do.
As an aside:
I think there is something else very critical at work here. On-line RPGS, seem to boil to down to combat too often. The ability to provide a truly interactive/stochastic (in that things that happen next depend on what you've done already) world a la Morrowind, is a lot tougher to do when you can have hundreds of people wanting to rob the same store. Because combat becomes the central purpose, it rewards min/maxing in a way that can't be avoided. Min/maxing is a way of life for many players. Min/Maxing is only possible if there are choices for customization. Kind of hard to min/max a 1st Edition Ranger.
In other words...because it's really just about combat, min/maxing is perceived as proffitable path. Min/Maxing became an enjoyment path and you need options to satisfy that need.
The new edition D&D has seemed to foster this min/max approach for PnP, but there is a fundamental difference in that the DM in PnP can custom tailor the dungeon to require lots of non-combat skills and thus penalize a Fighter who ignores all their non-combat skills.
CoX seems to be opposed to the idea of content that requieres any particular skill set. There are few if any missions where the inabilityt to fly precludes you from completeing or accepting a mission. THere was one mission where I had 5 minutes to disable a computer network upon leaving another mission. Without Super Speed and Stealth, I would have not been able to complete it in time solo. That was only one mission among hundreds and hundreds where I need any particular powers...and I just got lucky with the right tool set. But the problem, imo, is you don't do this enough.
I think the game would benefit tremdously if you had lots of additional content that required certain builds or powers...that were especially contrary to the min/max philosophy. Obviously this conflicts with people who feel that their solo blasters should have access to all the content in the entire game. A valid counter argument is that there is so much replay value in the various AT's themselves, you don't need to restrict content to encourage longer subscriptions.
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What fascinates me is how new this discussion is to the MMP world. Ive played lots of games over the years, and usually customization wasnt that big of an issue. I wont use any particular game as an example, but rather Ill take D&D 1st edition to demonstrate a difference. Magic Users then couldnt use swords. Just couldnt. They couldnt really wear armor, either. The major reason for this was balance: a sword wielding, armor wearing mage rendered any regular ole fighter pretty darn useless. There was certainly some grumbling after all, didnt Gandalf wield a sword? but pretty much its been accepted.
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It's worth noting that even this has changed. Current D&D rules allow for the use of a Sword by a "wizard" character class. They simply won't be as proficient with it as an equivalent level warrior. In fact, by doing so, they likely somewhat stunt their progression as a spell slinger. While I have read the opinions of many who despise the latest revisions of the D&D core rules, I immensely enjoy and appreciate the flexibility they provide. You can, at last, build the "hybrid" characters you might like without easily creating a dreaded "tank mage".
On to this notion in the City, it is indeed the flexibility you have given us in creation that has created this notion of the characters being "ours". I truly believe that had you not provided a free form description field that other players can view, you would, in fact, have stunted this freedom.
You see, my heroes not only look like I want them to, and have (within the framework provided) have the powers I want them to, they have the origin I want them to.
Now, I'm one that keeps my origins within the framework. You won't find any refugees from Marvel, DC or any other "universes" in my stable of characters - they all hail firmly from "Primal Earth". They all have origins tied strongly to the ideas of the Rikti War, portal technology, the villain groups showcased, and the framework of the Entities/Powers.
But how they fit in, how they came to be heroes or villains, you let me alone define that. That leads to an incredible degree of sympathy with the idea of the character. Despite not ever being a "RP" player in the City, I still have a clear notion of my characters' identities, their imaginary motivations, and what they would think of a given situation or foe.
It is, IMO, the above clarity of imagined character that is so frustrating to players of CoV with regards to Patron Pools. By level 40, players such as myself have established clear ideas of our characters motivations and goals. If those motivations and goals are incompatible with the notion of taking on a "patron" then this becomes a quandary. If an imagined character is a dedicated loner, or perhaps bent on world domination, then even assuming that working with a patron is a partnership and not a "lackey" position can be easily envisioned as distasteful.
When taken with the perspective of assumption that the Villain epics would be as free-form as those the heroes have, you can see how this could be gut-wrenching. People now have the choice of remaining true to how the imagined their character ... or not. That requires sometimes convoluted explanations or "retcons". And when you have emotional attachment to what you've build up in your mind ... well, you've seen some of the emotion behind that here on the forums.
Anyway, I'm glad to see you here voicing your thoughts on the matter, and how we got here. I'm still surprised sometimes at the things that surprise you guys, but I do think you're learning as you go.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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You know, for *once* I completely love a piece of design by the devs, and what happens?
Everyone else hates it.
I like the Patron Powers, I like the reddish electricity, it's cool all around, imho. Sadly, hardly anyone seems to agree.
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I LOVE the patron pool powers. They seem EXACTLY what I had in mind when I first thought about them. They will do exactly what they did in COH: Give EVERY TOON the CHOICE to ROUND OUT their build.
And its nice that the PPPs will have charged armor so I can finish and build my well-rounded VILLAIN version of my RAD/RAD defender Muhahahahaha. (Of course, he's not REALLY a villain...Rico, that scummy drug dealer framed him and...), of course I'm NOT taking the henchman power, Reactor doesn't have flunkies.
The reason players don't agree with you is they are the SAME players that make a scrapper and forget what TAUNT is.
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I did like chum
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So, yeah, love your game, big fanboi, and I've got this idea for how I'd do things differently. It's more work, do you guys have a problem with that? Cool.
. . .seriously, I'm coming in on the "I'd like a nonpatron option" side.
It doesn't have to be 20 [!] more new sets or whatever you guys are doing now. One "Independent" set per AT would at least give us a place to declare our "Screw all y'all" orientation. And if it was made out of existing powers from other sets? "I stole it, it's mine now."
(As far as epic sets being "made of leftovers" - I didn't mind at all. . . although I appreciate the extra work you guys are putting in on CoV.)
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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The reason players don't agree with you is they are the SAME players that make a scrapper and forget what TAUNT is.
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You just don't read the threads much before commenting on them, do you? Or maybe it's just a bad analogy on your part that doesn't properly express your point.
Seriously... my tank would benefit greatly from a web grenade, lazer eyes, toxic breath... and to really stir it up, a mighty punch.
Easily formed from existing graphics as an APP for villian brutes.
You've shown us powerset originality in PPPs, now show us that we still have a choice with some villian APPs.
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CoX seems to be opposed to the idea of content that requieres any particular skill set. There are few if any missions where the inabilityt to fly precludes you from completeing or accepting a mission. THere was one mission where I had 5 minutes to disable a computer network upon leaving another mission. Without Super Speed and Stealth, I would have not been able to complete it in time solo. That was only one mission among hundreds and hundreds where I need any particular powers...and I just got lucky with the right tool set. But the problem, imo, is you don't do this enough.
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Actually, I'll have to voice a concern against skill prerequisties. There has been nothing more frustrating to me in a D&D game than having a party of 6 and not having a single person who could open that frikkin door to the "phat lewt" treasury, so I had to pass it by. And I had a thief, mind you, just apparently not a good enough one. In Fallout, I'd spend countelss skill points on lockpicking, just because half the game world is hidden behind locked doors to which there are no keys.
I believe that skills, while a good thing, should be made into a system that is not exclusive. There is no more frustrating thing in a game than being told: "You just cannot do this thing. Period. Go away and never come back." This sucks, quite honestly, and has turned me off on more than one occasion.
IF there is ever a skills system, it needs to be capable of being overriden in some way. Can't unlock the door? Smash it, but raise an alarm. Can't reach that high terrace? Break the pillars and bring it down to you. Can't get past that spinning laser corridor of doom? Find the generator and shoot it until it smokes. Make having the skills make life easier, but not be the only course of action.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Really, if you're so concerned about your villain's character being "tainted" by Patron Pools, you're just too uncreative to deal with it.
Not all of the Ancillary Pools fit my heroes. But you know what? I thought of ways that they could. Everyone complaining here isn't limited by the gamethey're limiting themselves.
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There is a huge dissimilarity between lack of imagination and the lack of tools to realize your imaginings.
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You beat me to it, O_D. I was going to suggest locking SpacemanBill in his coat closet with nothing but a can opener and a deflated soccer ball to keep him company, and sealing the door closed with concrete, and dripping protein fluid in through the ceiling to keep him alive. If he was truly creative then he could go on to lead a rich, interesting life in such an environment. Some of us would prefer an environment that is a tad more dynamic.
Extreme example, but I hope it makes my point.
Also, Chum Spray 4tw.
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And, unfortunately, Chum Spray has been renamed to Bile Spray. Our powers guys felt that Chum was just too campy.
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I shall now call this power...
The spray formerly known as Chum
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I will call it "Ol' Chum".
My Motto: "Debt is merely another Goal."
"Wow Abalest--you manage to start a discussion even when you ain't given a topic" -Ghostman
Abalests on Infinity:
Miss Fulcrum
Dark Soul Golem
Power Drain
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Ill take D&D 1st edition to demonstrate...
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Nevermind that several decades later AD&D 3.5 now allows fighter mages; only shortly after D&D 1st Ed. you had other RPGs that eschewed the class system, such as GURPS. Powers and skills were bought with points. Complete customization. A fighter mage may not have been as good a swordsmen or wizard as a fighter or magic user specialists, but one could still have a fighter mage.
Now, I understand how with a MMP, a class system is needed for underlying balance... but there still might have been room for a wider range of choices. Some MMs want more pets... you don't allow that, instead you lock MMs into what you think they should have, and States... haven't you heard this one before? You have an idea of what's fun *to you* and think that that will be fun for everyone?
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Our powers guys felt that Chum was just too campy.
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Your power guys? Your *power guys*? You let power guys take over look and feel of the game? We're shooting spirit sharks at people. *SPIRIT* *SHARKS* at... *PEOPLE*!! And you're worried about camp? Sheesh. Tell the power guys that they're not designing powers for Sir Alistair Cooke and turn it back into Chum Spray.
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Increased Dev/Player communication FTW!
BTW, I'd love to spend a day at Cryptic, just to see things from the Dev's perspective for once.