I'm a little disappointed.

[ QUOTE ]
What fascinates me is how new this discussion is to the MMP world. I’ve played lots of games over the years, and usually customization wasn’t that big of an issue. I won’t use any particular game as an example, but rather I’ll take D&D 1st edition to demonstrate a difference. Magic Users then couldn’t use swords. Just couldn’t. They couldn’t really wear armor, either. The major reason for this was balance: a sword wielding, armor wearing mage rendered any regular ole fighter pretty darn useless. There was certainly some grumbling – after all, didn’t Gandalf wield a sword? – but pretty much it’s been accepted. In fantasy games today (online and other), the same limitations continue to apply…When designing City of Heroes, I remember a lot of people telling me that it was just plain wrong to give people so many costume choices in the beginning. People wanted to earn individuality over time, not receive it. Yet, to this day, I think character creation is the single most praised element of the City.

If I were to wax philosophical for a moment – I wonder whether it’s the genre (super heroes), the medium (City of Heroes) or the nature of the internet which has led to a greater demand for individuality. MMP’s, for the most part, are simply direct descendants of D&D, as described above. The gameplay, the mechanics, have pretty much followed the same pattern for ALL computer RPG’s. There’s certainly some demand for customization in other games (as I read on their boards), but it’s never quite the same as it is here for CoH. Maybe it’s because super heroes, by definition, are unique; thus, to play a super hero game a player wants to have those choices. But then I look at the internet, where we demand customization even down to our e-mail address. No one wants to be given a particular address, we almost always choose our own “handles.” Heck, I use the same name in nearly every MMP game to this day, as if it were my own digital shadow. Hopefully, some academic will look for this in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]


Fundamentally, paper and pencil RPGs are different from CoH in four fundamental ways:


1. RPGs are essentially always teamed. Solo RPG? That's a little weird. No one cares if the magic user can't wear armor or not, because each class could do its own thing, and only its own thing, and that didn't matter because they were essentially designed to always work in groups. CoH's attempt to keep one foot in the solo-friendly side, and one half in the balanced-vulnerabilities side, often causes it to shoot itself in at least one of those feet (and occasionally, in the head).

2. RPGs have a human at the wheel. GMs aren't blind implementers of the rules, they interpret, and where necessary, break them, for the benefit of the players of the game. The rules are less important in PnP RPGs, because the rules are subject to human intervention. If people sometimes rage against the rules in CoH, its not because CoH is different, its because in a PnP RPG, they would have a *dialog* with the GM, which would tend to defuse arguments. The rules are really much less restrictive than they are in a computer RPG, for obvious reasons, and the comparison to "mages can't wear armor" overlooks the enormous amount of things they *could* wear that doesn't exist in CoH. So what if they couldn't wear a giant metal suit: they could go on a quest for the legendary Cloak of Schwarzenegger instead.

3. In PnP RPGs, the rules don't say what customization is allowed. Instead, in PnP RPGs, the rules essentially say what *isn't* allowed, and players are free essentially to do anything else, within the limits of what the GMs will allow. CoH might have 16 million different costume choices, or whatever, but D&D had an infinite number of them.

4. PnP RPGs are often, and D&D in particular was surprisingly light in terms of combat. I've almost certainly killed more than a million heroes and villains in CoX since release: I kinda doubt there are many D&D players who can say that even if they've been playing it continuously for 30 years. And the non-combat aspects of D&D and other PnP RPGs can be fabulously open-ended, and make up for the relatively mechanical combat. That open-ended nature is, in effect, a highly unique and custom experience: even if two separate groups with two separate GMs play the exact same module, they were very likely to have two completely different experiences. That sort of uniqueness (I did something you didn't) doesn't really exist in CoH - and usually, its pretty clear that that is something Cryptic actively tries to avoid.


People want different experiences, they want control of their destiny, the want their digital avatars to be unique. I think this is true in every MMO. But in other MMOs, if you want to be unique, there are ways to try to be: crafting, lets say, or pursuing unique loot. In CoH, we have to *ask* for ways to be unique, because we can't create any on our own. This isn't WoW, so I can't make whatever you're supposed to make with a bag of fish. This isn't Second Life, or I would have macroed my own Martial Arts animations by now. This is CoH, where we have to beg for CAK to look a little less goofy, or for a rifle that slings on our backs instead of being apparently pulled out of our butts, and the answer is usually "no."

We want to be unique, but there are always problems - usually scarcity-related problems. Why if it take four attacks to make a complete attack chain, does the Martial Arts set only have five? How unique can MA scrappers be? This isn't "unique" to MA scrappers, either.

Why do we ask for so much customization in CoH, relative perhaps to other games? Because in CoH, unlike other games, if we want to be unique, all we can do is ask.

Or try to play a MAN build.

---

[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

[ QUOTE ]
So how does this still explain how PATRON pool pets can be perma, but Dark Servant the 9th tier power for defenders is still thrown to the curb by not being perma :/. Bringing this up again cause it still exists and is a HUGE QoL issue, not an uberness factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting that Defenders can't have it out permanently. Because Dark Miasma Corruptors can.

---

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So how does this still explain how PATRON pool pets can be perma, but Dark Servant the 9th tier power for defenders is still thrown to the curb by not being perma :/. Bringing this up again cause it still exists and is a HUGE QoL issue, not an uberness factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting that Defenders can't have it out permanently. Because Dark Miasma Corruptors can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Permanent in that you can keep it out permanently, or permanent as in you don't need to recast?

---

[ QUOTE ]
Permanent in that you can keep it out permanently, or permanent as in you don't need to recast?

[/ QUOTE ]

In that you can keep it out permanently. Did I miss something about the Patron power pets not needing to be recast? Do Controllers' pets not need to be recast? I thought it was only Masterminds. But I'm not big on pets. I only have one on my 39 Corruptor because there was no power I really wanted to take at 38.

---

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

[ QUOTE ]
In that you can keep it out permanently. Did I miss something about the Patron power pets not needing to be recast? Do Controllers' pets not need to be recast? I thought it was only Masterminds. But I'm not big on pets. I only have one on my 39 Corruptor because there was no power I really wanted to take at 38.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't actually seen anything official myself, but supposedly the patron power pool pets (say that ten times fast) are permanent (in the non recasting way). Control Pool pets have been that way since I5.

---

[ QUOTE ]
snipped for brevity

[/ QUOTE ]

Clint, what would you have me do?
Sit silent, processing butter in an old-fashioned churn from the 1800s? Don't they have robots for that nowadays?

Yes, they do. Apparently, that's what Cryptic wants me to be.


No way.

Statesman is a liar. Plain and simple. I have absolutely no doubt that his and Positron's recent posts are as equally false.

I've been lied to, misled, tricked, cajoled and deceived since this game went live. The days when I continue to pay for this stupidity are numbered...and the numbers are running out.

Continue to play your FPS online, Clint. You obviously enoy it. For me, I will take my money and my time and my creativity elsegame---and gladly. It's just a matter of time.

Cal2

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would rather be shot than listen to the type of abuse folks heap on each other nowadays. lol
heck, I would rather shoot them than hear it.
Now that is Southern. rofl

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds about just right for a Southern attitude: I don't like your opinion, so I'll shoot you.

Thanks for confirming.

[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, redneck mentality lurks in every corner of the USA. Southerners just may lie about it less.

[/ QUOTE ]

My statement was one that was meant to draw Rasta out to either defend his statement, or decry my generalization as too far-reaching, and indicative of a "Yankee's" repsonse. The reason? To illustrate that his generalization of Yankees being hellbent on making lives miserable by being rude was equally as absurd as my own statement.

However, it seems that the bait was not taken by the proper fish, and a lesson which was to be learned by guile must instead be taught by bluntness. This makes me sad. I -like- guile: it's more interesting.

---

"I see your words..." ~The most menacing thing a forumite could say

But I might not have gotten in my sneaky snark that's a bit self-deprecating if Rasta had taken the bait...

---

[ QUOTE ]
Clint, what would you have me do?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know. I'm less taken aback by your post, than you still feeling this way when it's been fairly clear to me that this game system was not going to get much deeper since Skills fell through and I4 was... what it was. I'll admit to being a let down that the company is really scaling back on updates for the foreseeable future from the expectations of output the company set up last year, but whaddaya gonna do? I anticipate going to a months-on/ months-off schedule starting this summer, myself, because I game first, socialize second online. Are Jack Emmert's statements often a wee bit disengenuous? Laughable so. Ya can't get to riled up about it when he's so consistent about it. It's not sneaky when it's obvious.

Good luck with the next game, Cal. I've got my eye on a couple of the licensed sci-fi MMOGs in '07-'08 if Auto Assault can't successfully pinch-hit for CoX. Maybe I'll see you there. I agree that CoX could be more, but it's not. I suspect the game many of us wanted this to be is really CoH-II. Until that comes out, this'll be a fun distraction much of the time, and sometimes not.

---

O Jesus. Take a break...like...now!

---

Break from what?

---

[ QUOTE ]
I've been lied to, misled, tricked, cajoled and deceived since this game went live. The days when I continue to pay for this stupidity are numbered...and the numbers are running out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, we've come down to this, have we? Can I have your stuff?

And to think I respected a person capable of the lowest of lows, the "I'm leaving so there!" bomb. You're washed up, buddy, and that's without even addressing the rest of your post.

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've been lied to, misled, tricked, cajoled and deceived since this game went live. The days when I continue to pay for this stupidity are numbered...and the numbers are running out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, we've come down to this, have we? Can I have your stuff?

And to think I respected a person capable of the lowest of lows, the "I'm leaving so there!" bomb. You're washed up, buddy, and that's without even addressing the rest of your post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Says the guy who's "a little disappointed". He just happens to be more disappointed.

And...

[ QUOTE ]
Can I have your stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]

...firmly places you in the same category, IMHO.

---

So I'm disappointed. I'm not throwing my weight around and making statements. I have no respect for people who trump that they're leaving like it adds any weight to their argument.

So, "can I have your stuff" is the canned response to that sort of sense of entitlement. Whenever I'm so disappointed that I decide to leave, I guarantee you won't hear about it. If I'm leaving, then that means I've given up hope of addressing issues. To me, "I'm leaving so there!" is only a vindictive statement meant as a last act of vandalism before leaving. Like when you tell your boss to "take the job and shove it" then spit on the floor before you leave.

That's not disappointment, that malicious anger.

*edit* This is getting far more aggressive than I had originally intended. Then again, it is no longer on topic. It hasn't been for half the thread. My original intention was simple - to post my feelings about the game and explain why I was sissatisfied and disappointed. It was never my intention to make demands, argue opinions or start a controversy. I did everything I could to present it in a cool, calm and collected manner. All I really cared about was what other people thought, if they felt like me, and if they felt that a chage was warranted.

And for the longest time that's how it went. I honestly wasn't expecting much of a response. I'm used to having an unpopular opinion, so the popularity of some of my concerns surprised me. But even with clashing opinions and disagreements, we still managed to keep the tone calm and the discussion friendly.

And then the Statesman posted. As glad as I am that he did, and as reassuring as having the man respond is, it brought exactly what I was hoping to avoid - angry, bitter, ranting people who had no intention of participating in a dialoge, but only cared to vent their pet peeves the world and who were prepared to slit the throat of anyone who disagreed. The above "I quit" equivalent was merely where the whole thing bottomed out into a flame-fest.

And that's not what I wanted.

I was disappointed, yes. Haven't we all been at one point or another? I was disappointed, and I had my reasons. But what I wanted to do with that disappointment was to initiate constructive criticism and maybe initiate dialoge. And for a while I did. What I DIDN'T want to do with my disappontment was to launch it out of a cannon directly into statemsan's face and laugh and laugh and laugh.

One can be disappointed with a product and still like it, and one can express disappointment with a product without making demands and unwarranted personal attacks.

But I realise that this is a lost cause now. I'm just hoping that whatever dialogue this thread had the potential to acheive has already taken place, because I don't see it going anywhere but to hell now.

---

I've been lied to, misled, tricked, cajoled, and deceived since the game went live.

Game's still fun, though.

---

Dawnslayer on Virtue.

The "Can I have your stuff?" line is actually spitting right back as far as I'm concerned. In a "You too!" kind of way.

Oh well, sorry for attacking. As much as the "I quit" posts might bother me, the "CIHYS?" posts bother me more.

---

Err, I guess I type too slow. I edited (or rather appended) my post, so have a look at it

And, yes, you're right. "Can I have your stuff" is really just as insulting (both to myself and the person I direct it to) as "I quit!!!" In a sense, I've undermined my own position by resorting to it. But I have this weakness that when I do not feel communication is possible, I tend to, as Samurai Jack put it, "fight on their level." When discussions degress into "I'm rubber, you're glue," then there's really not much reason can acheive.

I suppose "can I have your stuff" has outlived it's purpuse, now that I think about it. Rampant "I'm leaving" posts have not taken place, so a stock response is no longer necessery. If it ever were, it was to combat the sheer number of them.

---

[ QUOTE ]
The "Can I have your stuff?" line is actually spitting right back as far as I'm concerned. In a "You too!" kind of way.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, I just don't see that. I see the CIHYS response as a way of stating "I'm apathetic about your participation in this game. But I do recognize where I can gain. If you're serious, care to put your virtual money where your mouth is?" But maybe that's just me. I laugh a little in the back of my mind everytime that comes up appropriatly.

---

[ QUOTE ]
See, I just don't see that. I see the CIHYS response as a way of stating "I'm apathetic about your participation in this game. But I do recognize where I can gain. If you're serious, care to put your virtual money where your mouth is?" But maybe that's just me. I laugh a little in the back of my mind everytime that comes up appropriatly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. If someone replied to "Can I have your stuff?" with "Slag off!" would you read it as "Sorry, old chap, but I'm afraid that since this is a total loss for me there's no reason I should turn it into a capital gain for you"?

---

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

[ QUOTE ]
If I were to wax philosophical for a moment – I wonder whether it’s the genre (super heroes), the medium (City of Heroes) or the nature of the internet which has led to a greater demand for individuality.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nah, I think it's just human nature that people must find something to gripe about.

Not to diminish the value of individuality, but I think there's a tremendous opportunity for it in this game already (costumes, enhancements, power pools, etc.). Furthermore, if you compare it to the overwhelming problems many other MMOs suffer - from gross imbalances, server instability, poor customer service, bugs, exploits, unacceptable community behavior, UI inadequacy and so forth - in my opinion, it's a luxury to complain about something as relatively benign as Patron Power Pools.

In short, if this is our greatest "disappointment," I feel pretty fortunate.

---

Yeah, I too find it funny that with all the supposed nerfs, all the ballancing changes, all the fixes and so forth... With all that material for complaints, it had to be cosmetics that really disappointed me I guess we all have out axe to grind

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
See, I just don't see that. I see the CIHYS response as a way of stating "I'm apathetic about your participation in this game. But I do recognize where I can gain. If you're serious, care to put your virtual money where your mouth is?" But maybe that's just me. I laugh a little in the back of my mind everytime that comes up appropriatly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. If someone replied to "Can I have your stuff?" with "Slag off!" would you read it as "Sorry, old chap, but I'm afraid that since this is a total loss for me there's no reason I should turn it into a capital gain for you"?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'd see it as the same whine-whine as the original "This sucks, I'm leaving," post. Of course, if someone did reply with the "sorry, old chap," line, then I'd really laugh.

---

[ QUOTE ]


Fundamentally, paper and pencil RPGs are different from CoH in four fundamental ways:


1. RPGs are essentially always teamed. Solo RPG? That's a little weird. No one cares if the magic user can't wear armor or not, because each class could do its own thing, and only its own thing, and that didn't matter because they were essentially designed to always work in groups. CoH's attempt to keep one foot in the solo-friendly side, and one half in the balanced-vulnerabilities side, often causes it to shoot itself in at least one of those feet (and occasionally, in the head).

2. RPGs have a human at the wheel. GMs aren't blind implementers of the rules, they interpret, and where necessary, break them, for the benefit of the players of the game. The rules are less important in PnP RPGs, because the rules are subject to human intervention. If people sometimes rage against the rules in CoH, its not because CoH is different, its because in a PnP RPG, they would have a *dialog* with the GM, which would tend to defuse arguments. The rules are really much less restrictive than they are in a computer RPG, for obvious reasons, and the comparison to "mages can't wear armor" overlooks the enormous amount of things they *could* wear that doesn't exist in CoH. So what if they couldn't wear a giant metal suit: they could go on a quest for the legendary Cloak of Schwarzenegger instead.

3. In PnP RPGs, the rules don't say what customization is allowed. Instead, in PnP RPGs, the rules essentially say what *isn't* allowed, and players are free essentially to do anything else, within the limits of what the GMs will allow. CoH might have 16 million different costume choices, or whatever, but D&D had an infinite number of them.

4. PnP RPGs are often, and D&D in particular was surprisingly light in terms of combat. I've almost certainly killed more than a million heroes and villains in CoX since release: I kinda doubt there are many D&D players who can say that even if they've been playing it continuously for 30 years. And the non-combat aspects of D&D and other PnP RPGs can be fabulously open-ended, and make up for the relatively mechanical combat. That open-ended nature is, in effect, a highly unique and custom experience: even if two separate groups with two separate GMs play the exact same module, they were very likely to have two completely different experiences. That sort of uniqueness (I did something you didn't) doesn't really exist in CoH - and usually, its pretty clear that that is something Cryptic actively tries to avoid.


People want different experiences, they want control of their destiny, the want their digital avatars to be unique. I think this is true in every MMO. But in other MMOs, if you want to be unique, there are ways to try to be: crafting, lets say, or pursuing unique loot. In CoH, we have to *ask* for ways to be unique, because we can't create any on our own. This isn't WoW, so I can't make whatever you're supposed to make with a bag of fish. This isn't Second Life, or I would have macroed my own Martial Arts animations by now. This is CoH, where we have to beg for CAK to look a little less goofy, or for a rifle that slings on our backs instead of being apparently pulled out of our butts, and the answer is usually "no."

We want to be unique, but there are always problems - usually scarcity-related problems. Why if it take four attacks to make a complete attack chain, does the Martial Arts set only have five? How unique can MA scrappers be? This isn't "unique" to MA scrappers, either.

Why do we ask for so much customization in CoH, relative perhaps to other games? Because in CoH, unlike other games, if we want to be unique, all we can do is ask.

Or try to play a MAN build.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, I think you miss the point.

He points out that PnP RPGs had arbitrary rules (like "Mages can't use swords or wear armor"), and that MMOs have followed suit. A mage in World of Warcraft CONTINUES to be a "Cloth wearer." Your clothing determines your stats, so WoW characters wear stupid hats for the bonus. The only customization most MMOs give you were a few changes to your face.

Most people were apparantly ok with that. If the Horde started offering Epic Powers based one which LT of Thrall you served, nobody would complain. They would just start comparing and contrasting them.

ONLY in CoV/CoH have I heard so many demands for customizability. You're playing your OWN character in CoV, and when they make you integrate with the world, suddenly you complain.

He didn't say this was a bad thing. In fact, I get the impression he's pleased. He's patting himself on the back for making a game where people feel so attached to their characters that they bristle at any percieved railroading or taking away of conceptual independence.

He also didn't say "This won't change, and here's why." He just said "Huh. You know, nobody complains about that in WoW. Isn't that interesting?"

So maybe it will change. You'll note that you now have a choice of "skipping" Arachnos by working with a Mercenary when you get out of the zig. Maybe they'll add the "Mercenary" Patron Pool which lets you forge your own path.

I just wouldn't hold my breath quite yet. From the sounds of thnigs, the Patron Pools sound like they're also story arcs. You'll need a hundred missions in addition to 5 sets of powers (one for each AT). So it'll be a while in coming If they do it.

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The days when I continue to pay for this stupidity are numbered...and the numbers are running out.

[/ QUOTE ]Ah, we've come down to this, have we? Can I have your stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]
For whatever it's worth, Sam, I got the joke.

---

He also didn't say "This won't change, and here's why." He just said "Huh. You know, nobody complains about that in WoW. Isn't that interesting?"

Codswallop. People do complain about it in WoW. You just can't hear them over a million b.net freaks who only care about how fast they can kill another PC that never had a chance in the first place.

---

Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"