I'm a little disappointed.

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No it appears that he is complaining that he doesn't want to play to the world background. I can understand that, and COH has more freedom to ignore the world story in that regard.

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When CoV started you had exactly one starting contact, and that was to follow Recluse.

Now there's two Recluse's Kalinda and the more mercenary path.

It's possible, and this is what I'd be begging, hollering and yelling for, an extension of what they already started which would be an alternate, non-Arachnos aligned means of getting 40+ powers (hopefully the Epic sets).

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Agreed. If you take the non-Arachnos approach at the start it would be nice to continue that at the end.

So, uh, you want to stop being a lapdog to Arachnos in exchange for being a lapdog to even more faceless people?

I'd rather stick with Arachnos, thanks. At least I get the better gear.

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Lo and behold, that's exactly what happened. I started a thread attempting to express my disappointment with the direction the game is heading in a civil and concise manner, people came to debate it and we got developr attention. It may not have been exactly the answer I wanted, but hey, it's an answer.

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True and fairly said.

The devs do lend an ear to the players, even if they don't always listen to the parts I'd like them to. And the game must not *completely* suck or else I'd've ditched it like I have WoW, DDO, SWG, EQ2, GW, and several other games (either that or I'm stuck here ruing the genre monopoly until something better in the superhero genre comes along).

Actually, given my experiences in other MMORPGs, and despite my disappointment with various aspects of the game around here, I'd have to say that the CoX developers deal with their customers better than any others I've dealt with.

Too bad about renaming Chum Spray. I thought that was a great name.

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I would like to refrain from further dev-bashing for the sake of it. I don't agree with Statesman's position on the matter in the least - that's what I found disappointing to begin with. However, I'm far from asking for the guy's resignation or calling him names.

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This is true; there are a number of disappointing aspects with the Patron Pools, but this is complaining about one small part of an update that looks to contain a lot of other stuff that's really cool. We're not going to like everything in the game; it's best to just accept it and move on. Making minor parts of an update a pet issue that fortends doom for all and bringing it up constantly is a bit much.

And the people who actually go so far as to call for people to be fired over it... yikes! That's going way too far. It's just a minor part of the update. People don't need to be fired for the one part of an update you might not like.

Unless it's the guy who designed the base rent system. Rent... fills... me... with... hate!

Wait, what were we talking about again?

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If I were to wax philosophical for a moment – I wonder whether it’s the genre (super heroes), the medium (City of Heroes) or the nature of the internet which has led to a greater demand for individuality. MMP’s, for the most part, are simply direct descendants of D&D, as described above. The gameplay, the mechanics, have pretty much followed the same pattern for ALL computer RPG’s. There’s certainly some demand for customization in other games (as I read on their boards), but it’s never quite the same as it is here for CoH. Maybe it’s because super heroes, by definition, are unique; thus, to play a super hero game a player wants to have those choices. But then I look at the internet, where we demand customization even down to our e-mail address. No one wants to be given a particular address, we almost always choose our own “handles.” Heck, I use the same name in nearly every MMP game to this day, as if it were my own digital shadow. Hopefully, some academic will look for this in the future.

Positron and I will certainly keep this in mind for the future…oh, by the way, the reason that Electrical Power is reddish is so that it could mesh well with some Patron Powers. That was the intent, at least.

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It is human nature States. Give people an inch and they'll take a mile. Gives us a system that is confirmist and people will tend to confirm. Give us some sense of individuality and we want more.

On this note, please consider not making the first power in the the secondary a requirement while you are considering things.

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You guys either take stuff for granted or work around the constraints of the medium daily.

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Your implication that we have to accept every stupid decision in the present and the future because we've accepted stupid decisions in the past doesn't hold water.

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I did like chum. Recalled the great 7-Up commercial with a taste test...

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I want chum spray for the mighty Zombilly! Hey, I'm a zombie and I wanna barf on people, OK?

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This is true; there are a number of disappointing aspects with the Patron Pools, but this is complaining about one small part of an update that looks to contain a lot of other stuff that's really cool. We're not going to like everything in the game; it's best to just accept it and move on. Making minor parts of an update a pet issue that fortends doom for all and bringing it up constantly is a bit much.

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Of course. It's more than just a few Patron Powerpools that I'm disappointed about. If anything, the Patron Powerpools are a good idea in and of themselve. No, my disappointment has just built up over time from alittle things here and there that I don't wish to list. It's not important. It's a feeling I've been getting from the game and from changes and additions done to it that ultimately reflects a personal disagreement.

If anything, turning it into a problem as I have in numerous other threads was a mistake on my part. I guess it took some time for it to sink in that it wasn't Patron Powerpools and red electricity alone that I found disagreeable, and that there was more to it. If anything, Statesman's post only confirms my fears, because I was afraid they were doing exactly what he said they were doing. I don't want to explain it further.

And yet, I don't know why, but now that he has taken the time to respond to the issue personally, I feel that in some way we matter. That the development team is willing to communicate is really what brings me hope for the game. _Castle_ is making leaps and bounds in that departmen, and I feel this, albeis isolated appearance by the Statesman, himself, is just a sign that big brother is indeed watching and listening. In a sense, I had a mental picture of a stubborn development team pigheadedly making changes and updates their way. And while his post does not do a lot to disprove this, I no longer feel that way. I guess I'm easily pleased.

Not that I won't feel even more disappointed should the game keep going where I don't want it to go, but for now I'm satisified. I cannot expect the game to conform to my desires, that is unreasonable, but I like to think that I'm at least being heard without having to shout.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

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When we release levels 41-50 in CoH, we quickly realized that these levels didn’t offer any new powers. Players would be choosing from powers that were already available. While extra powers are nice, it isn’t very interesting. So we asked ourselves what would players want? All Archetypes chafed under their limitations – Tankers had no range, Blasters no defense, etc. – so we thought we give each Archetype the ability to choose lesser versions of powers that would address their weaknesses. Unfortunately, new powers are incredibly art intensive. Instead of making new sets, we choose pre-existing powers and renamed them as Ancillary Power Pools.

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If this was the same intention of the PPPs, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, then there is a critical failure. The MasterMind PPPs offer things that are covered by secondaries already. Furthermore, there is no choice in powers. We can choose whether to take the powers or not, but our choice of powers in non-existant since every Patron's Powers are the same thing with different graphics. That's not a choice of powers; that's a choice of graphics.

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Many have complained that this hinders creativity and roleplaying. After all, not everyone wants to be a villain that works for Arachnos. Certainly, a large strength of the City franchise has always been its customizability. To a degree, the Patron powers somewhat inhibit this by compelling people into “working” for certain Arachnos agents. The powers also do not dovetail perfectly into current power sets.

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An understatement. Nevertheless, correct, the powers do limit us story-wise and in the area of power syncronization. But you're forgetting the final piece to this trinity of limitations: thematic limitations. Three of the four patron power sets are magical. One is non-magical and relies upon the person carrying a mace. None of those fit in with the theme of my current Brute, MasterMind, Stalker, or Corrupter. Yet each could easily take an APP, if they were offered, and it would mesh with their theme.

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What fascinates me is how new this discussion is to the MMP world. I’ve played lots of games over the years, and usually customization wasn’t that big of an issue.

[/ QUOTE ] I don't think it was ever a priority on teh developer's side, and thus nothing was known to be missing ont he player side. It's human nature to be unique, even if it's only a facade.

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Positron and I will certainly keep this in mind for the future… And, unfortunately, Chum Spray has been renamed to Bile Spray. Our powers guys’ felt that Chum was just too campy.

[/ QUOTE ] Well that blows chunks. Please seriously reconsider the PPPs as they are now. Add more Patrons of non-Arachnos origin and add in APPs to the villain side. Give CoH Patrons, too. There, everyone's happy.

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Positron and I will certainly keep this in mind for the future… And, unfortunately, Chum Spray has been renamed to Bile Spray. Our powers guys’ felt that Chum was just too campy.

[/ QUOTE ] Well that blows chunks.

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Actually, the problem is that it's won't blow chunks.

So how does this still explain how PATRON pool pets can be perma, but Dark Servant the 9th tier power for defenders is still thrown to the curb by not being perma :/. Bringing this up again cause it still exists and is a HUGE QoL issue, not an uberness factor.

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There’s been a ton of discussion regarding Patron Power Pools, so I thought I’d at least give you a perspective from the design end.

When we release levels 41-50 in CoH, we quickly realized that these levels didn’t offer any new powers. Players would be choosing from powers that were already available. While extra powers are nice, it isn’t very interesting. So we asked ourselves what would players want? All Archetypes chafed under their limitations – Tankers had no range, Blasters no defense, etc. – so we thought we give each Archetype the ability to choose lesser versions of powers that would address their weaknesses. Unfortunately, new powers are incredibly art intensive. Instead of making new sets, we choose pre-existing powers and renamed them as Ancillary Power Pools.

During CoV development, I wanted to make sure that the game offered a different experience than CoH. One case of this was that CoV became far more focused on storyline and background than CoH was. We tried to create a vibrant villainous organization that players would want to be part of. For inspiration, I looked to the world of comic books, which are filled with cool, evil organizations. I also wanted our villain versions of “ancillary power pools” to be unique; with the emphasis on Arachnos, I decided to create the Patron system.

Many have complained that this hinders creativity and roleplaying. After all, not everyone wants to be a villain that works for Arachnos. Certainly, a large strength of the City franchise has always been its customizability. To a degree, the Patron powers somewhat inhibit this by compelling people into “working” for certain Arachnos agents. The powers also do not dovetail perfectly into current power sets.

What fascinates me is how new this discussion is to the MMP world. I’ve played lots of games over the years, and usually customization wasn’t that big of an issue. I won’t use any particular game as an example, but rather I’ll take D&D 1st edition to demonstrate a difference. Magic Users then couldn’t use swords. Just couldn’t. They couldn’t really wear armor, either. The major reason for this was balance: a sword wielding, armor wearing mage rendered any regular ole fighter pretty darn useless. There was certainly some grumbling – after all, didn’t Gandalf wield a sword? – but pretty much it’s been accepted. In fantasy games today (online and other), the same limitations continue to apply…When designing City of Heroes, I remember a lot of people telling me that it was just plain wrong to give people so many costume choices in the beginning. People wanted to earn individuality over time, not receive it. Yet, to this day, I think character creation is the single most praised element of the City.

If I were to wax philosophical for a moment – I wonder whether it’s the genre (super heroes), the medium (City of Heroes) or the nature of the internet which has led to a greater demand for individuality. MMP’s, for the most part, are simply direct descendants of D&D, as described above. The gameplay, the mechanics, have pretty much followed the same pattern for ALL computer RPG’s. There’s certainly some demand for customization in other games (as I read on their boards), but it’s never quite the same as it is here for CoH. Maybe it’s because super heroes, by definition, are unique; thus, to play a super hero game a player wants to have those choices. But then I look at the internet, where we demand customization even down to our e-mail address. No one wants to be given a particular address, we almost always choose our own “handles.” Heck, I use the same name in nearly every MMP game to this day, as if it were my own digital shadow. Hopefully, some academic will look for this in the future.

Positron and I will certainly keep this in mind for the future…oh, by the way, the reason that Electrical Power is reddish is so that it could mesh well with some Patron Powers. That was the intent, at least. And, unfortunately, Chum Spray has been renamed to Bile Spray. Our powers guys’ felt that Chum was just too campy.

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Ok, i'm not exactly sure what you're trying to imply. It seems like you're chastising us for expecting CoV ancillary pools to be as diverse as the ones given in CoH. But I don't think it's unreasonable for us to have this expectation. You did, after all, set the standard when you made the CoH ancillaries, no?

I have absolutely no issue with the patron pools as outlined, except one -- they are not diverse enough to be applicable to all toons. I like the idea of patron pools, and agree that it adds a dimension to characters. But by limiting the choices to dark, shark/toxic, energy weapon, and electricity you're basically excluding toons that don't fit the mold (fire, ice, stone, rad, etc.). So as long as we're willing to compromise our toons we can partake in the story you've created, otherwise we're SOL. I'm sorry, but that just seems wrong.

And I can easily see how this is going to create a divide amongst the "haves" and the "have-nots", something you've worked very hard in the past to eliminate. A toon that enters into patron pools will definitely have advantages over those that don't -- ranged and aoe attacks for melee fighters, damage resistance for ranged attackers, and pets for all. But since the patron pools don't easily fit to so many power sets it's reasonable to expect many to just not take them, leaving them weaker overall than those that don't. Yet another reason why some will compromise their toon's concepts just to be able to keep up with everyone else as well as the game (that I'm sure is going to be designed with patron pools in mind). Again, this just seems wrong to me, and flies in the face of previous dev decisions regarding game balance.

Why can't we have the best of both worlds and let us decide which way we want to take our characters? Like I said, I have nothing against the patron pools -- I like the idea; I think it's kinda cool. And for some of my toons they fit. But for just as many other of my toons they don't. Why can't you, in addition to patrol pools, put together a few generic ancillary sets like in CoH? I'm not saying you have to come up with anything new, but a little more diversity for villains would be very much welcome.

Even just one generic set per AT would accomplish so much; a set that was not attached to a patron, one that contained mostly generic powers that would be appropriate for nearly any set (like laser beam eyes, conserve power, temp invulnerability, mez protection, focused accuracy, etc.) In an ideal world I'd love to see multiple sets per AT specific to each set like in CoH, but I'd be happy with just one generic alternative.

It really is having your cake and eating it too -- those that want to go with a patron can and those than don't can still have access to similar abilities and won't feel left out, or worse, underpowered.

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So how does this still explain how PATRON pool pets can be perma, but Dark Servant the 9th tier power for defenders is still thrown to the curb by not being perma :/. Bringing this up again cause it still exists and is a HUGE QoL issue, not an uberness factor.

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This is off topic, but I can answer this one. What a lot of people seem to overlook with the whole dark miasma power set is that although the powers are strong, they tend to be unreliable. Twilight grasp for example is a very nice heal and debuff. But if you are desperate for healing, it could very well miss the enemy. The entire powerset follows this theme of being unpredictable, including the pet. You can not guarentee that the pet will be there every time you need it, and that is the theme of the entire set.

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So how does this still explain how PATRON pool pets can be perma, but Dark Servant the 9th tier power for defenders is still thrown to the curb by not being perma :/. Bringing this up again cause it still exists and is a HUGE QoL issue, not an uberness factor.

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This is off topic, but I can answer this one. What a lot of people seem to overlook with the whole dark miasma power set is that although the powers are strong, they tend to be unreliable. Twilight grasp for example is a very nice heal and debuff. But if you are desperate for healing, it could very well miss the enemy. The entire powerset follows this theme of being unpredictable, including the pet. You can not guarentee that the pet will be there every time you need it, and that is the theme of the entire set.

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Without knowing exactly the nature, powers, hit points, etc. of the patron pets you can't judge how useful they'll ultimately be. There's an exceptionally good chance they won't be particularly hardy nor powerful -- meaning they're most likely to die long before you can resummon one; a far cry from being "perma".

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The entire powerset follows this theme of being unpredictable, including the pet.

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Darkest Night, Tar Patch, Shadowfall and Howling Twilight are all completely reliable. None of them involve to-hit rolls of any kind and always the same way work when activated.

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I would rather be shot than listen to the type of abuse folks heap on each other nowadays. lol
heck, I would rather shoot them than hear it.
Now that is Southern. rofl

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That sounds about just right for a Southern attitude: I don't like your opinion, so I'll shoot you.

Thanks for confirming.

Actually the THEME of the set is that you use the power of darkness to aid your fight against evil. As Click said not all powers require to hits. I guess that means that every other AT that has to hit their targets are "unreliable".

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I would rather be shot than listen to the type of abuse folks heap on each other nowadays. lol
heck, I would rather shoot them than hear it.
Now that is Southern. rofl

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That sounds about just right for a Southern attitude: I don't like your opinion, so I'll shoot you.

Thanks for confirming.

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LOL

ahem

Well, can't say as I don't know some good 'ol boys who sorta think like that. But most of us wouldn't dream of doing that---unless, of course, you're a Yankee

Cal2

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The entire powerset follows this theme of being unpredictable, including the pet.

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Darkest Night, Tar Patch, Shadowfall and Howling Twilight are all completely reliable. None of them involve to-hit rolls of any kind and always the same way work when activated.

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I disagree. Just because they do not require "to hit rolls" does not mean that they are perfectly reliable. There is a certain level of unpredictability in all of the dark miasma powers. I will not claim to be an expert on these powers, so I will just explain darkest night.

This power, when looking on the bright side, is an area effect debuff. Accuracy I believe?

So what makes darkest night "unpredictable?" Well, first of all, it is not just an AE debuff, it is an aura you stick on a single enemy target. If the rest of the enemies suddenly move away from him for some reason, they lose the debuff. If your teammates kill off that particular enemy early, the debuff drops. It is also a toggle power, which means that if you suddenly get hit with an effect like hold or sleep, this debuff ends. Finally, of all things, this is an accuracy debuff. As nice as that is, there is no guarentee that the enemies will not get lucky and land lots of hits on you anyway.

As I said, I am not an expert on every DM power, but after playing with it for a while, this was the overall design theme I noticed. This is just the tradeoff you pay for such strong powers.

Anyway, this really has NOTHING to do with the subject of patron power pools.

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This power, when looking on the bright side, is an area effect debuff. Accuracy I believe?

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And damage.

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So what makes darkest night "unpredictable?" Well, first of all, it is not just an AE debuff, it is an aura you stick on a single enemy target. If the rest of the enemies suddenly move away from him for some reason, they lose the debuff.

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Fortunately, we know that Darkest Night does not exist in a vacuum. Almost anyone with the Dark set will have tar patch. Tar patch means the rest of the group is NOT going to be moving away. Since Tar Patch comes complete with autohit -speed and -fly debuffs, it's VERY effective.

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If your teammates kill off that particular enemy early, the debuff drops.

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Pick a target with a name that is unique to the group, if possible (such as the boss/lt/or a minion that doesn't have any doubles).
/bind ctrl+button4 "team $target is my focus$$powexec_name Darkest Night"

Now your team should have no trouble not killing your target. If they do, then it's because your team is unpredictable, not the set.

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Finally, of all things, this is an accuracy debuff. As nice as that is, there is no guarentee that the enemies will not get lucky and land lots of hits on you anyway.

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Again, not in a vacuum. Pick up Fearsome Stare (another pretty much must have power). Not only does it add more accuracy debuff on top of darkest night, but it holds all enemies in their place unless you are attacking them. Their accuracy is not only massively debuffed, but they can only attack you after you attack them. Even con minions are pretty much floored at that point, and +2/3s aren't that big of a threat either.

I'm really not so sure what's unpredictable about this. By level 15 I could solo spawns in my missions set to unyielding with 2 players in it, and I wasn't able to twink my dark since it was on a different server from my main.

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Anyway, this really has NOTHING to do with the subject of patron power pools.

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True, but it's still an interesting debate.

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Those of you who are satisfied with how things are and look for nothing more---or, at the least, accept what comes forth---are no doubt giddy with glee about this response. But I was assured of much, much more. Apparently I'm not going to get it in this game.

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I think you could have saved time and just posted this, Cal. There are some nuggets of truth in your post and some stuff that I agree with, but there is so much naked bitterness and spite in the post, it's not worth it to distill those elements out.

Yes, this game seems like it do a lot more than it has, but it hasn't gone to [censored]. The company has just gotten realistic with its development goals and has been weaning us off the pie-in-the-sky possibilities (that I think they believed too) that were regularly batted around in the first year. CoV was the wake-up call last year.

Back to the content of your complaints:

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Red Herring, Rhetoric and Sophistry. If you really thought this way, then CoH would not be the game it is. CoH is the better game, period. I don't know why; I don't know what happened to change your game design philosophy---but whatever it was, it doesn't bode well.

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I think the company did a lot of good things in CoV - better things gameplay-wise - but there are elements where I think they took longstanding CoH feedback perhaps too far. I see a year's worth of back-and-forth between players and devs in just about everything in CoV. I also see that they had big ideas that perhaps they didn't have the available resources or expertise to fully implement all at once. Kinda reminds me about CoH at launch, and that turned out pretty cool after the first couple of Issues.

I just hope after I7 that the company is done throwing all these resources at PvP zones. PvP in this game needs time to catch on, and throwing out more and more zones doesn't help. Our cup runneth over with PvP opportunities.

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I dunno -- I find it telling that since States posted, the overwhelming bulk of the thread consists of direct replies to him.

Granted, it's no small function of the forum -- to facilititate communication between the playerbase and the Devs. But I can't help but sense examples of the berating and personal attacks provided above discourage that kind of interaction.

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I think the devs are adults and professionals. I presume they are better than you and I at not obsessing about obviously outrageous complaints, and focus on the pleasant posts and constructive critiques. One doesn't get very far in any entertainment industry with a thin skin. Absorbing personal irate commentary from an web forum is a luxury that only players have.

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I would rather be shot than listen to the type of abuse folks heap on each other nowadays. lol
heck, I would rather shoot them than hear it.
Now that is Southern. rofl

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds about just right for a Southern attitude: I don't like your opinion, so I'll shoot you.

Thanks for confirming.

[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, redneck mentality lurks in every corner of the USA. Southerners just may lie about it less.

your ability to detect subtle unintended irony is legion.