I'm a little disappointed.
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2006-04-25 09:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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For the people who don't like the PPPs, there is really nothing to try.
My Stone/Stone Brute (that's based on STONE) does not want to spray anyone with chum.
My Plant/Thorns Dom (that's based on PLANTS) does not want red lightning or a big frickin' mace.
It's really that simple.
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Perhaps you will have a happier life if you wait with the hate 'till you have something better than press releases to base it on. Like, say, five minutes of experience.
It's really that simple.
I promise, I'll be right up there on the baricade with you if I try it out and find that I hate it. I'm just not psychic, so I'll have to wait for I7 before I can form an opinion based on anything concrete.
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I don't get this response. You quoted On_Demand's post in its entirety, commented on its hate content, yet there is no hate in his post...
Wha?
Beyond that, you keep telling people who have thematic concerns that they should wait and test content of which we already know the thematic quality.
Huh? I'm fluent in English, yet I feel like I've stepped into a bizarro world of logic.
All that's left is to Brawl index the powers and explore the missions tied to the powers - neither of which is what the OP is all that critical of. We can assume that you could team with people of other Patrons to get a taste of the segregated mission content. I hope so.
Once again, somebody is telling another poster who has been around the block many times with this game to take a "wait and see" attitude to everything when it's pretty easy for vets to piece together the basics without investing play-hours. So far, the 'wait and see' crowd's not even batting a .500 compared to the realistic predictions. I7 is going to be pretty cool, all-in-all, when it's finally released, but much like I4 and I6, there's a fair amount of content that caters to specific tastes and circumstances. Some people are going to have honest mixed feelings about it and probably the best thing to do is acknowledge it and move on.
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Maybe I'll be so awed by Grandville that I won't notice the PPPs.
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*sigh*
Yeah, I've got to agree with Samuel and others. I'd like some more customizability in this game too.
I like my villains to be more subtle than the skulls and chains and bloody stuff that dominates the costume selections. Sure I like those options and use 'em, but I just wish more subtle or neutral options were available too. It's the attitude and actions that make somebody villainous, not necessarily their outward appearance.
Anyhow, I'd like to change the colors/sounds/animations of certain powers and things like that, but power customization in that vein is a long way off, although I hope Cryptic assigns a dedicated team to that by itself, along with another dedicated team to pump out new costume every month.
That said, patron powers (however cool and graphically impressive they are) do feel limiting to my rp concepts as well. A lot of my characters are too independent to ever take a patron. It'd be nice if you could grab regular APP's (maybe from a mercenary "patron") as well. Hope such an option comes along in I8.
Arc Salvo: Okay hold one sec guys, we can't just rush in blindly vs these Nemesis, they've got these ranged aoe's tha-
Teammate1(charging in): Shut up, Arc Salvo, you lame*$% Viewtiful Joe wannabe! What do you know?!
Teammate2(also charging): yeah, ST#& arc salvo u PWR RANGR U!
Arc Salvo: *sigh*
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Darth friggin' Vader had a Patron.
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That is both a very good example and a not so good example. 
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Episodes 1 to 3 never happened. 
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Oooh, sorry to even make you think of those! I never saw em, I don't know nothin' about em, that wasn't what I was referring to. I was thinking of one person picking up another person bodily and throwing that other person into a very deep well. If we can choose to finish our patron arcs by doing stuff like that (bust open Mako's aquarium and watch him flip around on the floor for a while, hire some high-level clerics to nail Ghost Widow with a massive Turn Undead, or even sneak some industrial strength itching powder into Black Scorpion's suit), I'll be very happy with the patron arc treatment of authority and submission. Then we'll just be back to the problem of my skill-based ninja swordsman learning to summon waterspouts indoors, my hard-headed evil scientist learning to travel through the netherworld to eat souls, and my giant robot eschewing his built-in weaponry in favor of a big bronze mace.
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I like my villains to be more subtle than the skulls and chains and bloody stuff that dominates the costume selections. Sure I like those options and use 'em, but I just wish more subtle or neutral options were available too. It's the attitude and actions that make somebody villainous, not necessarily their outward appearance.
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Exactly. We got chains and barbed wire and horns and spikes and hooves and lord knows what else. My first reaction was "Cool!" Except I've never used them. Of course, I'm not arrogant or selfish enough to decry them - that sort of thing is an integral part of villainy.
However, if I had nothing but leather and chains (shut up!) to make my villains out of, I'd be pissed. Very much so. But we don't. We got all the "I eat babies!" evil gear, but we also got all the stars-n-stripes, polyester and tights hero costumes. So, if I didn't want to make an "I R Evil" concept, I didn't have to. And I haven't.
This appears to be increasingly less the case, however, and it bugs me.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Beyond that, you keep telling people who have thematic concerns that they should wait and test content of which we already know the thematic quality.
Huh? I'm fluent in English, yet I feel like I've stepped into a bizarro world of logic.
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Fluency in English and bizare logic aren't mutually exclusive, you know. I could be the weirdest guy on the block, and still express myself perfectly.
Anyway. I'll explain. I won't suggest for anyone else to "Wait and See". That's their choice.
Welcome to bizzaro world:
I have a thematic concern for the Patron Power Pools. For me to even be able to play a character for an extended period of time (say, past level 10ish) the theme of the character has to click. The name, the bio (written down or otherwise), the powersets, the look. All these things have to mesh together *just* right. If they don't, I eventually lose interest.
That's why my main CoH character sits at level 33 after almost two years, while my main CoV character hit 40 in a month's time (which, for me, is really impressive).
Now, remember that I'm being extremly picky about how my character works out. Introducing Patron powers, I have a choice.
A) I can decide in advance that picking a patron makes no thematic sense for any of my characters. I'm happy the way they are now. They are loners. They don't kiss up to Arachnos. I'm disapointed in the lack of choice.
B) I can give it a try and see if it works out. If it doesn't work out at all - say, I hate the powers, I hate working for the patron, the storyline is all wrong, etc. - then I likely won't take any of those characters much past 40. It takes too much effort for a character I'm not happy with. But, there's the (albeit small) chance that they do actually work out. Maybe, just maybe everything clicks into place and I'll be happy.
If I'm happy with the final concept, then I'm not disapointed in the lack of choice, and I'll know what to expect the next time I bring a guy past level 40 (as if that'd ever happen 
).
I opt for option B. Maybe you, in your infinite wisdom, can forsee how it will affect your concepts. I don't have that luxury, so I chose to err on the side of caution, and at least give it a try.
Frankly I've been a little burned out since my main hit 40. No new character I've tried have really clicked the right way. So I'm just shuffling around with a bunch of lowbie alts, biding my time.
Maybe I'll be revitalized by I7 for a bit. Maybe not. We'll have to see.
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Once again, somebody is telling another poster who has been around the block many times with this game to take a "wait and see" attitude to everything when it's pretty easy for vets to piece together the basics without investing play-hours.
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"Telling" implies that I'm issuing a decree here. I'm really not.
I offer a simple suggestion from "one poster who's been around the block many times with this game", to another. 'Waiting and seeing' is something that works for me when I have the kind of concerns Samuel and others are expressing. I push the worries away and decide to save the worry for when it becomes an issue. If it becomes an issue.
Now, this works for me. This is how I deal with that kind of potential disapointment. So, I offer it as helpful advice. If you don't want to wait and see... that's fine. It doesn't work the same way for all of us, after all.
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I7 is going to be pretty cool, all-in-all, when it's finally released, but much like I4 and I6, there's a fair amount of content that caters to specific tastes and circumstances. Some people are going to have honest mixed feelings about it and probably the best thing to do is acknowledge it and move on.
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I agree.
Does that put you in my bizzaro world, or me in yours?
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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Well, I'll agree with that. There is such a massive array of skull and bone pieces I'll probably never use, except for maybe the Ribs belt and the bone cage upper arm things, but there was some stuff I really wanted, like the Hammer & Sickle chest emblem.
I used the chains on one villain, and it can be done with good taste, but how many times am I going to do it? There are a great number of options for barbed wire and chains, but I'd really like more kinds of footwear more than BDSM options. 
Here is my understanding of the Patron Power pools: You patron is introducing you to the source of their power.
I don't know the origin story for any of the Patrons, but let's say for a sec that that there was a Lord Reculse Patron Power Pool. How would you get those powers? Lord Recluse would lead you (or send you) to the the Well of the Furies and you would get a chance to drink from it.
From a story point of view, would your character take that drink or not? Would your character complain to Lord Reculse "I am not going to drink from that well because it doesn't give Stone Powers" or would your character drink from the Well and cope with the incongruity?
In many ways I find the Patron powers easier for character concept. My Brute will get Ghost Widow's patron powers with this story, "I started hanging around with GW becase, well, I like hot dead chicks. What can I say? I am weak that way. Anyhow, I did a few favors for her and look what she gave me! Now I can throw inky skulls at people and goose them with black tentacles."
The point here is that consistancy with my origin is not required. I have a story for how I got my primary and secondary powers but I don't have to find some way to shoehorn a third power set into that story because this is something that happened to my character after he arrived in the Rogue Isles. Honestly, this is considerably better than in CoH where if none of the Epics fit my character story, I am SoL.
Look at it this way: you do a series of missions for Stephanie Peebles in Striga and she gives you a wedding band to use for a couple of hours. Do you say "I am a tech based energy blaster and I don't use magical resist all powers?" or do you say "Stepanie gave me this cool ring!" The term "Patron Powers" seems, well Patronizing, but I think the reality is less so. Stephanie is loaning you the ring for 2 hours and then you have to give it pack. Black Scorpion is giving you a staff and you get to keep it. In CoH you get to keep the Sands of Mu for what, a couple of days before your contact wants it back? In CoV Scirocco gives you full access to the power of Mu forever. Honestly, which side would you call more "patronizing?"
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Maybe I'll be so awed by Grandville that I won't notice the PPPs.
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*sigh*
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Sorry. I don't know what this means. But my post count has almost doubled today, so what the heck. I'll reply
Does it mean that it's wrong to entertain the posibility that eye candy distracts me from any flaws in the game system? Or what?
Is this what bizzaro world feels like?
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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For me to even be able to play a character for an extended period of time (say, past level 10ish) the theme of the character has to click. The name, the bio (written down or otherwise), the powersets, the look. All these things have to mesh together *just* right. If they don't, I eventually lose interest.
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At least we completely agree on something.
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Exactly. We got chains and barbed wire and horns and spikes and hooves and lord knows what else. My first reaction was "Cool!" Except I've never used them. Of course, I'm not arrogant or selfish enough to decry them - that sort of thing is an integral part of villainy.
However, if I had nothing but leather and chains (shut up!) to make my villains out of, I'd be pissed. Very much so. But we don't. We got all the "I eat babies!" evil gear, but we also got all the stars-n-stripes, polyester and tights hero costumes. So, if I didn't want to make an "I R Evil" concept, I didn't have to. And I haven't.
This appears to be increasingly less the case, however, and it bugs me.
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That's funny actually. The other day I realized that none of my main villains have used as much as a single piece of villain-specific costume. That was odd... but I guess I like the subtle look too.
I'm not sure I see what you mean though. That option isn't going away, is it?
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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At least we completely agree on something.
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Alright. This has got to stop. I've been posting more in this thread than I've posted for the past year. I'm a lurker. I'm way out of my natural habitat!
Anyway. Glad to hear that I'm not alone!
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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I like the chains because they can be used in several different ways depending on how you color them. One of my toons is wearing gold chains and it is quite a different effect than you get if you color them gunmetal grey.
Sam, this isn't me disagreeing with you, simply adding my two FOCE cents on top of your own.
To me, this entire thread is not unlike an episode of American Idol. Let's say the southern-bred rocker guy decided to take a chance one week and do a cover of Frank Sintara to show he had a different side. He comes onstage in a stylish tux with his usual awry hair and goatee looking slick and neat. He sings great, only it's not the Skynard the judges are used to.
And when they get to the judges, the first thing they point out is how the song choice was "outside his box." Or it wasn't "him."
That's how I view this.
The devs have tried something different with epic powers in CoV and ultimately with CoV as a whole. And the judges are screaming "Get back in your box," "Don't take a chance," or "We only like you when you are doing the same old thing."
Not all concepts in CoH can be realized with epic pools either. A rad/rad defender is pretty screwed. Or an illusion controller. A spines scrapper won't get some ultimate spine powers at the end of the game.
Ultimately, I think being given power from someone else is a much more rational explanation for these new powers at level 41 than just "You hit level 41, now your fire blaster can use electricity" or "You hit 41 and now, and only now, your scrapper has learned how to throw throwing stars even though Tsoo have been doing it since level 13." I would love if they adapted the "Patron" set-up for heroes and gave us a storyline or two that explain where we get these new epic powers and why they are important to our characters. Right now they aren't anymore important than the Fitness or Speed pool.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
I don't see why people are yelling and screaming about the incongruity of the PPPs. Just because you derive the majority of your powers from one source doesn't mean you can get a little extra from somewhere else. Just because most of the time you drive a car doesn't mean you can't whip out your motorcycle on the weekends. If you're a hired killer and you use a gun most of the time, there's nothing to say if you find a grenade you can't use it.
You aren't getting these powers from your original power source. You're getting these powers from a secondary source, and thus they are irrelevant to your original theme. Take Manticore, for example. Most of his powers come from money and skill, but he has some that come from a magical origin. The magic skills don't stop him using normal skills. The normal skills don't stop him using magic skills.
Anyway, if it turns out that your character (not you) doesn't know what sort of powers s/he's getting until they get them, then it all makes sense. even if they do know, it may still make sense. A full-time lawyer may still busk on the weekends, and such.
Long story short, I forgot what I was going towards.
Because it's less the fact that we can get powers from an external source (i.e., "kissing up"), but the fact that don't have the option to get additional powers from ourselves (i.e., the ancilliaries) that continue the power growth we had previously?
I realize that not all sets could do this anyway, and honestly, as people have said - it'd be a non-issue if they'd given generic APP options along with the PPPs, or if the powersets came with enough powers that you didn't run out of about all your primary and secondary powers by the time you hit your 40s. Still, it's disappointing. Which is, ultimately, all the OP said in the first place. And yeah, I gotta agree with him. There's building characters to fit the world setting (all of my villains and heroes are designed as such) and feeling like you're being railroaded story-wise by a pushy GM, and honestly, CoV gives me the nagging feeling of the latter even in the teens. CoH was much more open for filling in your own backstory/motivations, and it's why I prefer it to, say, games like WoW. Or CoV, apparently. I guess some people like the more "story-driven" nature of CoV, but I find it grates.
Ah well. It's too bad, I really liked the ideas I came up with for my villains, but it's hard to feel like playing them when I already feel a bit hemmed in by the "storylines" and with not a whole lot to look forewards to later in the game. It'll be awesome when we can switch sides, though, so we can can the new ATs we like while still getting get the looser gameworld feeling we missed from CoH.
- Laurentide
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We have all kinds of concrete information. I'm not sure how people don't grasp this. We know the power names, we know their themes and graphics, we know we don't have alternatives, and we know we can't respec out of them. This has all been confirmed by Dev posts, interviews or Feature Update articles.
Are we really going to have to pull out the "I don't have to get kicked in the groin to know I won't like it?" comments again?
Damn, I did. I think I owe LaserJudas royalities now.
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You do.
"I see your words..." ~The most menacing thing a forumite could say
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Ultimately, I think being given power from someone else is a much more rational explanation for these new powers at level 41 than just "You hit level 41, now your fire blaster can use electricity" or "You hit 41 and now, and only now, your scrapper has learned how to throw throwing stars even though Tsoo have been doing it since level 13." I would love if they adapted the "Patron" set-up for heroes and gave us a storyline or two that explain where we get these new epic powers and why they are important to our characters. Right now they aren't anymore important than the Fitness or Speed pool.
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The problem isn't explaining the powers, I know exactly where my main's epic pool came from and why it's important to him, because I filled that part in myself. If I was forced into a cookie cutter "explanation" mission to tell me how, where and why I received his epics, then I would be equally unenthused about those as well. This is about a good imagination, not a good explanation.
Didn't we have the exact same complaints about Kheldians? That because they were all aliens people couldn't roleplay them?
I say bullocks.
This isn't about imagination. This is about perceived control of a character. A good roleplayer can roleplay anything. I'm not even a roleplayer and I can think of a million reasons why my corruptor suddenly has Ghost Widow's powers. Maybe he did align with her, to get closer to taking down Lord Recluse. Maybe he two-timed her and stole a rare artifact from her lair during a conversation that gave him some of her powers. Maybe as he grew in power, repeated exposure to the Night Widows have given him a kind of supernatural radiation poisioning.
As was early stated, there's conflicting arguments here. "CoV is too much like CoH" and "CoV is too different from CoH" is the same as "CoV is too villainous" or "CoV isn't villainous enough." That, too, is about a good imagination or lack thereof.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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This isn't about imagination. This is about perceived control of a character. A good roleplayer can roleplay anything. I'm not even a roleplayer and I can think of a million reasons why my corruptor suddenly has Ghost Widow's powers. Maybe he did align with her, to get closer to taking down Lord Recluse. Maybe he two-timed her and stole a rare artifact from her lair during a conversation that gave him some of her powers. Maybe as he grew in power, repeated exposure to the Night Widows have given him a kind of supernatural radiation poisioning.
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Sure you can think of a million reasons as to why, but will they fit? Unlike the APPs, which are more extensions of a hero and are left to the imagination of the player, PPPs come from a Patron. The only information we have to go by are what bits and pieces are given in interviews, and even those are vague, but we do know that the story arcs tie directly into the backstory of the patron giving them, and that you supposedly swear allegiance to a patron to get them. Until we know how the story arcs play out, and what is involved in earning these PPPs an RPer can't make any real judgements. We'll just have to wait and see what actually happens in the story before we know if we get any leeway, or if what happens is already laid out, and the same for everyone.
But even then, no matter how the story is laid out for us, we're talking about imagination here.
And with imagination, there's always options.
Look at comic books. A classic theme is the ol' villain doublecross. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. So your brute "buddied" up and swore "allegiance" to Mako. Little did Mako know you only did so to get into his good graces to steal a little of his coralax power and eventually overthrow him and Lord Recluse. Or perhaps you did so only temporarily to try to learn the secrets of Sharkhead Isle once and for all. Or maybe you were mauled by a shark (or perhaps you prevented shark mauling by kissing it on the snout like Abigail from Duck Tales) as a child and want to use your fear to unlock your sense of vengence on the heroes, ala Batman using his fear of bats to his advantage.
If we're truly admitting this is a case about imagination, then we have to concede that imagination has no boundries. What's in the game is a starting off point only if you will it so. You can sidestep it all you want.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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This isn't about imagination. This is about perceived control of a character. A good roleplayer can roleplay anything.
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I like the idea of Patrons.
I like the idea of Patron Arcs.
I like the idea of Patron Powers.
It's not that I can't make up some wild [censored] story about how these powers came to be or why I'm working for one of Recluse's henchmen.
I just don't like how the powers LOOK. I guess I can imagine that red electricity is snow or that a mace is really a Swiss Army knife, but I would prefer to not have to
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I just don't like how the powers LOOK.
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That's a completely different argument, Demand.
I'm debating the perceived limitations or lack thereof of imagination when it comes to roleplayers.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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If we're truly admitting this is a case about imagination, then we have to concede that imagination has no boundries. What's in the game is a starting off point only if you will it so. You can sidestep it all you want.
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Just because you can imagine something, doesn't mean you enjoy it.
I can imagine up a story about me becoming a princess and being chased by all the hansdome princes in the land, but I won't have fun doing it.
I'm certain anyone who wants can come up with a story that fits. I think the complaint has always been that its a constricted position. Not that it cant be done.
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Take the time to understand what people are complaining about before you attempt to tell them to "wait and see."
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Alright. I'll let myself get suckered in by the ill-veiled insult one last time.
I understand what you complain about.
You complain that the part of the picture you've seen doesn't fit the kind of development you'd like to see (to put it briefly; I don't want to paraphrase this entire thread and everyone like it).
My point is that we won't know if we're seeing the entire picture 'till, you know, we've seen the entire picture.
Maybe we know everything there is to know. Maybe we don't.
I'd return the insult, but I got nothing. Sorry
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That wasn't an insult on my part. Your comments about waiting to test things pretty clearly seemed to convey a fundamental lack of comprehension about the complaints people are making at PPPs.
It's no an insult to tell someone you don't think they've sufficiently understood something. If I was to imply that you were incapable of such understanding due to a character flaw, IQ level, nationality, or some other reason, that would be an insult. Had I wanted to insult you, I would not have been subtle about it.
If you feel that my implying that you dont understand something is an insult, I'm afraid you may just be overly sensitive to such a mild form of criticism.
We've seen the whole picture. We know that there are only four PP pools, we know what the graphics for those powers, what they do, their names, and in many cases can deduce which of those powers are the same as pre-existing powers. Do you read the interviews and articles on other sites about CoV? We've been told everything there is to know about Patron Powers other than the hard numbers, which we'll learn when I7 goes to test.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos