I'm a little disappointed.

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the pools given are magical in origin, and if you don't think that these patrons won't have ways of enforcing those who they have embued with their power, then they are dumber lackeys of Recluse than I thought. Ever heard of demonic pacts? These patron powers certainly sound like they could be something similar, and given that one of the Dev's themselves said in an interview that you get these powers by swearing allegiance to one of the patrons, it sure does sound a lot like boot licking to me. What a patron give, no doubt a patron can also take away, and if someone did take the power and run, then I'm sure the patron would just strip the offending villain of the powers they bestowed.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's a wide margin between swearing allegiance and becoming a toady. Allegiance does not equate to servility. Don't any of you work in any sort of hierarchy?

When I signed up for the Air Force, I took an oath to obey the President and all officers appointed over me. That doesn't mean that I spent all my time spreading rose petals in front of second lieutenants. It sure as hell doesn't mean that for guys like Marine Recon.

As for enforcement, if you're allowed to read behind the lines to make up magical methods of enforcing pacts, you're allowed to read behind the lines to do whatever you want; you just can't change the surface of it, but you can see the underlying motivations your way.

Even on the removal of powers, that's not always so smooth in comics. Loki didn't have such an easy time pulling power back from the Wrecking Crew; Immortus's powering up of the Scarlet Witch left all kinds of consequences, including drawn out, pointless crossovers.

[ QUOTE ]
Where's the option to pick up 7 of my buddies and just get into a fight with the patron and take the powers?

[/ QUOTE ]
Heh, an energy mace I could see, maybe, but I'm guessing that the other powers involve a little more than swiping a potion and drinking it, or grabbing a shark fin and strapping it to your back. The patrons probably have to, like, work with you over time to teach and/or bestow the powers, my man. "Teach me the inner workings of the dark dimension, NOW, or I bust your face in!!"

Reminds me of an old D&D campaign in which our party was contracted to overthrow a corrupt government that had been directly taken over by an overt splinter faction of the Assassins' Guild. We snuck into the "new" mayor's mansion and took him out, and the guy who did the deed started checking over the mansion, to get the lay of his new property. The rest of us were like, uh, what are you doing? His response? (Honest to god) "What? I killed the mayor! I'M the mayor now!"

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you will have a happier life if you wait with the hate 'till you have something better than press releases to base it on. Like, say, five minutes of experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

This game has no affect on my life.

We've gotten a detailed listing of the powers and video/pics of what they look like. Test them all you want. A mace is still a mace.

[ QUOTE ]

What's to test aside from the hard numbers of the powers like BI, recharge, endurance cost, etc.?

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer to that question is exactly my point: We. Don't. Know.

Maybe nothing. Maybe pure awsomeness. Maybe something in between.

Only one way to find out (and I don't mean asuming the worst and run around screaming ).

Well, if people were doing that, you might have a point. But people aren't. They're expressing their distaste for several aspects of the Patron Power system that have been 100% confirmed and documented.

The things people are complaining about such as lack of thematically appropriate choices, permanent nature of the pools, etc, are not concerns that can be addressed by playing with the powers on the Test Server.

Take the time to understand what people are complaining about before you attempt to tell them to "wait and see."

[ QUOTE ]

Are we really going to have to pull out the "I don't have to get kicked in the groin to know I won't like it?" comments again?


[/ QUOTE ]

Is it time to bring out the Ethiopian baby muffler already?

I have all sorts of respect for LaserJudas. The above quote isn't his finest moment.

"I don't have to taste pancakes to know that I don't like them."
Oh, wait. I do like pancakes. Glad I tried them then.

Pointless allegories don't really make a point.


Anyway. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I won't step on your right to complain! Me, I'll build up my righteous rage for when I7 is on test

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's pretty clear that obtaining these powers will be more in depth than a single AV fight.

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll gain the powers in the same manner we earn other powers, I know... but how do you know that we won't have to fight one of the signature villains for the powerset to begin with? You know... in the Story Arcs and such. So, while we may not be beating an individual power out of them, we could very well be able to beat the powerset option out of them. I doubt it'll happen, but I can't say that we won't, for a fact. Neither can you. All we can do is say that it's very unlikely.

[ QUOTE ]
And with the entire internet doublechecking the work, I'll take wikipedia over a select group of dictionographers.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I want a word defined for me, I don't run to my neighbor and ask. I use a dictionary. No sense in getting second-hand information, no matter how correct it may be... most of the time. Especially when the appropriate source for such information isn't any further away.

-----------------------------------------

[ QUOTE ]
When I signed up for the Air Force, I took an oath to obey the President and all officers appointed over me. That doesn't mean that I spent all my time spreading rose petals in front of second lieutenants.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's actually a great example. Even down to the fact that each branch has their own little theme under the same 'umbrella.'

[ QUOTE ]
I doubt it'll happen, but I can't say that we won't, for a fact. Neither can you. All we can do is say that it's very unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but I can say not having that option is foolish. I can say a lot more about it, but I don't think its necessary as the argument pretty much is self explanatory.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For the people who don't like the PPPs, there is really nothing to try.

My Stone/Stone Brute (that's based on STONE) does not want to spray anyone with chum.

My Plant/Thorns Dom (that's based on PLANTS) does not want red lightning or a big frickin' mace.

It's really that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you will have a happier life if you wait with the hate 'till you have something better than press releases to base it on. Like, say, five minutes of experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Back the train up... we're talking about thematic choices here, not functional choices. Irregardless if Chum Spray lets me kill every enemy in Recluse's Victory at once and costs 5 END with a 2 second recharge timer, it still doesn't fit the theme of my Robots/Force Field Mastermind, who is himself a robot containing no biological matter and shuns "meatbags" for their inefficiency.

We know the themes, descriptions, and graphics of the powers enough to know if it will simply not fit a character's theme. Test it till your keyboard breaks from button pushing, it won't change the thematic dichotomy of a character and that power(set).

[ QUOTE ]
Take the time to understand what people are complaining about before you attempt to tell them to "wait and see."

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright. I'll let myself get suckered in by the ill-veiled insult one last time.

I understand what you complain about.
You complain that the part of the picture you've seen doesn't fit the kind of development you'd like to see (to put it briefly; I don't want to paraphrase this entire thread and everyone like it).

My point is that we won't know if we're seeing the entire picture 'till, you know, we've seen the entire picture.

Maybe we know everything there is to know. Maybe we don't.


I'd return the insult, but I got nothing. Sorry

I guess I will take the wait and see option, but I understand where you are coming from Samuel.

Rook

[ QUOTE ]
But villains? No, the villains that make good characters are the ones that don't lick the boots of a superior. There's no room for those kind of villains on the rogue isles, only the kind that can follow the rules and do what their told!

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that all the villains that make good characters bow to no man. I've always thought the Super-Adaptoid was cool, and he works for whoever's pushing his buttons that day. Deathstroke is cool, and he works for who pays him. The Super-Skrull is cool and he's beholden to his military superiors and the Skrull throne. I always liked Terrax the Tamer, but he's been lackey to one being after another. Geez, even friggin' Sabertooth is usually somebody's stooge.

I don't think it's even the case that characters that don't usually bow to anyone are unable to work for or with people. Ultron worked for Doctor Doom in the Secret Wars. Doctor Doom himself worked for Loki without realizing it in the Acts of Vengeance. Loki in turn worked for Those Who Sit Above In Shadow for a while. Kang's Immortus self worked for the Time Keepers. Thanos considered himself Death's servant for decades, and so did Mephisto.

In my opinion, a lot of these objections boil down to me to be "I can't be in charge and I can't be cool if I'm not in charge". I just think that's bogus thinking. Darth friggin' Vader had a Patron. With lightning! Not red lightning, but lightning...

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I can't imagine how any of this got off the drawing board without that feature.

[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, they probably didn't figure that people would freak out like this. I still don't think it's that big a deal. I know people are worried that this power pool will turn out to be more UBAR than that power pool and they're stuck with Gimp Patron, but, jeez, all the PPPs are damn near identical. If I were going to complain about anything, it'd be that.

[ QUOTE ]
[comic knowledge]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not even gonna try to put up an argument on this front. I'll just say that most of the villains that stick out in my mind are of the manner I described.

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, a lot of these objections boil down to me to be "I can't be in charge and I can't be cool if I'm not in charge". I just think that's just bogus thinking, and I don't know how you could implement it so two hundred thousand players are all in charge.

[/ QUOTE ]

You were just saying how there's a difference between being a lackey and working in a hierarchy. Well there's a difference between being in charge, and not taking orders as well. Just look back at CoH. None of my heroes have felt like they were in charge, but they didn't feel like lackeys of the Freedom Phalanx either.

[ QUOTE ]
If I were going to complain about anything, it'd be that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there's too many things I'd like to complain about with regards to the PPPs.

The answer to that question is exactly my point: We. Don't. Know.

Maybe nothing. Maybe pure awsomeness. Maybe something in between.

I'm real sorry, but if you think there's anything meaningful we haven't seen yet, you're in denial.

So be a REAL villain. Lick the boot of your master until he teaches you all you know then tell him to go pound sand you aren't doing jack for him any more. Some of the BEST villains in comics and the like have betrayed somebody they learned skills from in the past, or no longer follow their teachings, or bailed on them.

[ QUOTE ]

Back the train up... we're talking about thematic choices here, not functional choices. Irregardless if Chum Spray lets me kill every enemy in Recluse's Victory at once and costs 5 END with a 2 second recharge timer, it still doesn't fit the theme of my Robots/Force Field Mastermind, who is himself a robot containing no biological matter and shuns "meatbags" for their inefficiency.

We know the themes, descriptions, and graphics of the powers enough to know if it will simply not fit a character's theme. Test it till your keyboard breaks from button pushing, it won't change the thematic dichotomy of a character and that power(set).

[/ QUOTE ]

Oddly enough, I'm talking thematic choices as well. Or, more exactly, I'm not specifically talking functional choices (I guess I don't care enough about the functionality at this stage, to even have considered it an option - my bad).

Maybe I'll be so awed by Grandville that I won't notice the PPPs. Maybe they'll torment my every waking hour. Maybe something else distracts me. Maybe it works better than I expected. Maybe it works worse. Maybe it's not as constricting concept-wise as I thought. Maybe it's more contricting than I could imagine in my wildest dreams. Maybe my character remains fun to play.

I don't know. I guess I just don't like to grief in advance. If the concept suck as much in practice as we apparently hope, there'll be ample opportunity to grief about it then.

[ QUOTE ]
You were just saying how there's a difference between being a lackey and working in a hierarchy. Well there's a difference between being in charge, and not taking orders as well. Just look back at CoH. None of my heroes have felt like they were in charge, but they didn't feel like lackeys of the Freedom Phalanx either.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that's fair enough, but I know I felt like the errand boy of every guy in Paragon City with a cellphone. Hell, I would have preferred being the errand boy of people with cellphones.

You know what, this sums it up better than I could. Scroll down to where it says "Green Lantern Memories". Ah, Seanbaby.

In any case, I don't feel significantly different as a villain in that respect. Every random name in the phone book throws work in my general direction and I go do it. With the Patrons... jeez, it just feels like a big contact who throws some nice temp powers at me more than anything. I took orders from Hard Luck for a friggin' badge. This guy wants to give me lightning bolts.

I seem to have started quite a discussion on what may well be a volitile subject for some, so I'm glad to see we've kept it as clean as we have. Thank you for that.

There are a few points I need to address:

Try it first - I don't think I will, because the thing I don't like will not change with trying it. I want a Stone Epic to finish my Stone/Stone brute. That isn't there, and I don't need to test to see that. I'll say that again - it's not the Patron Powerpools that I'm against. I don't mind having them. It's the lack of, you know, other stuff. Generic stuff. That is missing. I don't have a choice at the moment. Either I take a patron, or I don't take anything at all, and I find that distasteful.

Serving Arachnos - Yes, the world is built like that, and yes, had I no other choice, I would conform my characters in one way or another. That doesn't mean I have to like the few choices I have. I don't. I prefer to choose the allegiance of my own characters myself. CoH allows me to do that. CoV does not.

You know, the funniest thing is that in CoH, where absolutely no allegiance of any kind is required, my main character and namesake, Samuel Tow, is depicted as a servant of the city. Not out of necessity, but because it's the right thing to do, and because he'll be protecting the city one way or the other. I wasn't forced to, I had a choice, and I chose allegiance. I don't need it forced on me in CoV any more than I did in CoH.

The point is that I'm not trying to decry the new additions. Certainly Patron Powerpools are not a bad idea, although I wish they hadn't dug themselves into the hole they had by building a system for which they didn't have the appropriate software. Red electricity certainly isn't "a bad thing." Some people like it. I happen to dislike it.

No, the additions coming are all well and good, but they're not what I wanted or expected. The additions present options that I find unacceptable. And while I realise not all people would find them to be so, for me there are no other options. It's either an option I don't like, or bupkis, and that is a loaded choice.

I used to hope that what I don't like will be fixed sooner or later. But the recent moves really disappointed me. I'm no longer certain if what I want is ever going to come. I'm beginning to thing that the developers have turned over a new leaf and are bringing the game in a direction I don't like. I was never one to complain about what I'm NOT getting, and I suppose I had built up my hope to a level I should not have. That left me disappointed when it dawned on me that what I wanted just wasn't coming. And I learned, and I adapted. Now I have brought my expectations down to the bare minimum. I've resigned to not hoping and not looking forward to anything again, because I just don't want to be disappointed like that any more. I still love the game for what it is, and I still love playing it, but my enthusiasm is gone. I'm not angry, really. Just disappointed.

And a point needs to be said about artistic freedom. I realise there is a world set before us, and I realise we need to conform to it. To argue with official fiction is stupid, that much everyone will agree with. So I'm not complaining about what I can and cannot do, I'm complaining about what I have and what I don't have to do. I don't want to allign some of my characters with Arachnos in any way, shape or form, but I'll have to. And every time I think about what I'll have to do, I just get the urge to stop playing altogether. Ever since I learned about the Patron Powerpools and the lack of Epics, I've been employing an escapist strategy. I play for the moment and try to build my characters on the here and now. But this is pathetic, especially in ligh of my full knowlege of what is coming. And I don't know how much longer I can go on pretending I have anything to look forward to post 40.

I know it's funny to be asking for the two games to be more similar, but CoH is the game I fell in love with all those years ago. It was perfect then, and it has become even more so since then. Sure, ballancing issues and changes have happened, but I don't really care. My characters remained true to my own vision. That is what I loved, and I will never understand why the developers decided that it needed to be fixed. I suppose my major disappointment comes from having played CoH for a year and a half and loving every second of it, and expecting CoV to be the same. CoV, however, appears to be going in a different direction.

And that just makes me a little sad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

[ QUOTE ]
The answer to that question is exactly my point: We. Don't. Know.

Maybe nothing. Maybe pure awsomeness. Maybe something in between.

I'm real sorry, but if you think there's anything meaningful we haven't seen yet, you're in denial.

[/ QUOTE ]

As you correctly quoted, I don't think one way or the other on the issue. I'm simply pointing out that we won't know 'till we know.

I can make all sorts of more or less realistic asumptions, but no matter how sound, I won't actually know if they are true 'till I get a chance to see it for myself.

Maybe it suck as bad as it sounds. Maybe it doesn't.

Yeah. That sounds a lot like denial.

[ QUOTE ]
There's a wide margin between swearing allegiance and becoming a toady. Allegiance does not equate to servility. Don't any of you work in any sort of hierarchy?

When I signed up for the Air Force, I took an oath to obey the President and all officers appointed over me. That doesn't mean that I spent all my time spreading rose petals in front of second lieutenants. It sure as hell doesn't mean that for guys like Marine Recon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I've worked in many hierarchies, and those who impress the powers that be, and do what's required usually succeed, while those who buck the system don't.

Even with your example of the Airforce, while I'm sure you didn't drop rose petals at the officer's feet, I'm also pretty sure you didn't openly disrespect them, or be insolent in public unless they gave you permission to do so first. I'm also pretty sure they told you when you could work, and when you couldn't, when you could go on leave, and when you couldn't, what you could wear etc, etc, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
As for enforcement, if you're allowed to read behind the lines to make up magical methods of enforcing pacts, you're allowed to read behind the lines to do whatever you want; you just can't change the surface of it, but you can see the underlying motivations your way.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, such reading between the lines is all speculation at this point, and if, after finishing the story arc, the patron in question says, "Well done Evil Captain Nice, in reward for helping me with <blah> I bestow upon you the dark energies of the netherworld to do with as you see fit" then I will openly acknowledge I was wrong, and just think that this whole PPP system is even dumber than I do now. If on the other hand there is a big speil about swearing allegiance to said patron, and how once bestowed with their power there is no turning back, etc, well then, that's a different story altogether. In the end it will all be how it's handled within the text, and cutscenes, of the different story arcs...

And now to try and bring this back on topic, I pretty much agree with the OP. For all of my characters, their first, and foremost allegiance is to the villain group they are in, and not Arachnos. This is what is so deal breaking for me. If I was the leader of a VG there is no way I would have anyone in my organisation who had sworn allegiance to an Arachnos patron, it would just be too risky, I could never trust them, and even if they were just playing said patron along, I don't need the hassle of a traitor in my midst. If they can betray their patron, they can betray me, and so I just don't need them.

Of course, such a policy would be impossible to police in an existing VG, as I'm sure there will be players who want them, and I'm not such an RP/Character concept Nazi where I would limit such a choice to those who have chosen to join my VG, and served it well... which just goes back to wrecking the immersion factor for me, and is why these unrespecable, story driven PPP's don't work for me.

[ QUOTE ]
Darth friggin' Vader had a Patron.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is both a very good example and a not so good example.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh geez, Posi and them already said they will look into it. The reason they couldnt do it differently right away was because of the fact they never put tech into CoH/CoV that allows you to completely breakoff a contact and lose any souviners/story arc progress.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think if the company had offered true APP equivalents of a universal/elemental nature in addition to unlockable PPPs this would be an almost moot conversation. I think it may speak to how ambitious and thinly-stretched they are, resource-wise, that they didn't.

[ QUOTE ]
Even with your example of the Airforce, while I'm sure you didn't drop rose petals at the officer's feet, I'm also pretty sure you didn't openly disrespect them, or be insolent in public unless they gave you permission to do so first. I'm also pretty sure they told you when you could work, and when you couldn't, when you could go on leave, and when you couldn't, what you could wear etc, etc, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not always that clear cut, even in the military. Plenty of things went on that the officers never heard about, and the officers commonly had the sense not to pry too deeply into some things. And while an O-1 could technically give orders to an E-9, that sort of interaction was actually usually handled a lot more delicately because the E-9 could probably crush the O-1 like a bug and they both knew it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Darth friggin' Vader had a Patron.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is both a very good example and a not so good example.

[/ QUOTE ]
Episodes 1 to 3 never happened.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh geez, Posi and them already said they will look into it. The reason they couldnt do it differently right away was because of the fact they never put tech into CoH/CoV that allows you to completely breakoff a contact and lose any souviners/story arc progress.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think if the company had offered true APP equivalents of a universal/elemental nature in addition to unlockable PPPs this would be an almost moot conversation. I think it may speak to how ambitious and thinly-stretched they are, resource-wise, that they didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Theres also the question of if perhaps they didnt offer an alternative to Patron powers because they didnt want to end up with a posible situation of a large number of players opting for APPs instead of PPP's, which would make the decision to spend time and effort on PPP's look like a bad one.