City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Dark Knight Rises *there be spoilers here, seriously don't click if you don't want spoilers*

2short2care

By 2short2care,
Posted on: 2012-07-20 12:43 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic_Fortune View Post
While the 'judgement' scenes with Crane were fun, I would have really liked to have seen those same scenes with Heath Ledgers Joker,
I thought the same exact thing. If Heath was still with us he should have been the judge and the scarecrow could have made a cameo elsewhere. But overall the cameos were nice and well done.

 

Posted

I agree with liking to see the Joker in that role, but I also think if the Joker were a part of this movie, he would have been a much bigger part of it. I could be wrong, but my mind wandered more in the what if territory of would the Joker have been behind much of this entire plot?
Then again, maybe the Legion Of Shadows aspect was always planned... who knows... There were likely a myriad of directions that had been considered before the final result.

@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

 

Posted

From IMBD;

Quote:
No reason is given whatsoever in the film for his absence. Christopher Nolan was adamant that there would be no mention of the Joker. "We're not addressing The Joker at all. That is something I felt very strongly about in terms of my relationship with Heath and the experience I went through with him on The Dark Knight. I didn't want to in any way try and account for a real-life tragedy. That seemed inappropriate to me. We just have a new set of characters and a continuation of Bruce Wayne's story. Not involving The Joker." He is neither seen, heard, nor mentioned throughout the whole film. In the novelization of the film, it is suggested that the Joker is now a lone inmate at Arkham Asylum. Another reason is that Nolan thought that no one could do Joker role as Heath Ledger did. Perhaps he wanted to honor Ledger by not showing the Joker anymore, subtly saying that Heath is the only true Joker, and that no one can ever replace him - a likely honor to Ledger's talent.
I find his reasons perfectly acceptable, personally. *shrug*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Ledger reasons aside...

Yep, they didn't bust the *crazies* out... just the mob guys. There is quite a difference. Joker would have been stuck in Arkham, and done so *on purpose*. He's a chaos generator, and wouldn't be held under anyone's thumb, not Bane or Al Gul's.

Matter of fact, those two would have had to *recruit* Bats to find his *** again, because the Joker is both insane and crazy like a fox.

Nope, Nolan's personal issues aside, the Joker doesn't fit into this storyline, unless, somehow, he escaped on his own during it... and then Bane would have crushed his butt, if he saw him.

I.e., no point to it. None.

August 31, 2012. A Day that will Live in Infamy. Or Information. Possibly Influence. Well, Inf, anyway. Thank you, Paragon Studios, for what you did, and the enjoyment and camaraderie you brought.
This is houtex, aka Mike, signing off the forums. G'night all. - 10/26/2012
Well... perhaps I was premature about that whole 'signing off' thing... - 11-9-2012

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
From IMBD;

Quote:
No reason is given whatsoever in the film for his absence. Christopher Nolan was adamant that there would be no mention of the Joker. "We're not addressing The Joker at all. That is something I felt very strongly about in terms of my relationship with Heath and the experience I went through with him on The Dark Knight. I didn't want to in any way try and account for a real-life tragedy. That seemed inappropriate to me. We just have a new set of characters and a continuation of Bruce Wayne's story. Not involving The Joker." He is neither seen, heard, nor mentioned throughout the whole film. In the novelization of the film, it is suggested that the Joker is now a lone inmate at Arkham Asylum. Another reason is that Nolan thought that no one could do Joker role as Heath Ledger did. Perhaps he wanted to honor Ledger by not showing the Joker anymore, subtly saying that Heath is the only true Joker, and that no one can ever replace him - a likely honor to Ledger's talent.
I find his reasons perfectly acceptable, personally. *shrug*
So he thinks it would be inappropriate to reference it in the context of the film, but he's perfectly chill with saying "yeah the Joker was put to death" during interviews.

That's just asinine. As I said above, completely ignoring the character that won Ledger a posthumous Oscar is truly disrespectful. Plenty of TV shows have acknowledged the passing of their actors by killing off the character off-screen, is Nolan saying that all of those stories were also disrespectful? He's full of it, frankly.

Quote:
Ledger reasons aside...

Yep, they didn't bust the *crazies* out... just the mob guys. There is quite a difference. Joker would have been stuck in Arkham, and done so *on purpose*. He's a chaos generator, and wouldn't be held under anyone's thumb, not Bane or Al Gul's.

Matter of fact, those two would have had to *recruit* Bats to find his *** again, because the Joker is both insane and crazy like a fox.

Nope, Nolan's personal issues aside, the Joker doesn't fit into this storyline, unless, somehow, he escaped on his own during it... and then Bane would have crushed his butt, if he saw him.

I.e., no point to it. None.
They didn't need to show him. He didn't need to figure into the story at all. But considering the Dent Act was passed in the wake of the Joker's madness, I'd say the character should at least be mentioned in a historical context. But obviously it's better to just forget when bad things happen and pretend that everything is fun smiley times forevers and evers.

"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGob View Post
As I said above, completely ignoring the character that won Ledger a posthumous Oscar is truly disrespectful.
Seeing as Nolan knew Ledger on a personal level, maybe he knows what would have honored Ledger more than you do.

Unless you're saying you knew the guy, then my apologies.

@Rylas

Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGob View Post
So he thinks it would be inappropriate to reference it in the context of the film, but he's perfectly chill with saying "yeah the Joker was put to death" during interviews.

That's just asinine. As I said above, completely ignoring the character that won Ledger a posthumous Oscar is truly disrespectful. Plenty of TV shows have acknowledged the passing of their actors by killing off the character off-screen, is Nolan saying that all of those stories were also disrespectful? He's full of it, frankly.
Its easy to judge the way people handle tragedies. Nolan's actions and his reasoning are entirely reasonable. If they don't measure up to your standards, that's just unfortunate.

[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Its easy to judge the way people handle tragedies. Nolan's actions and his reasoning are entirely reasonable. If they don't measure up to your standards, that's just unfortunate.
bascially. That goes for many things.

-Female Player-
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks."
I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Its easy to judge the way people handle tragedies. Nolan's actions and his reasoning are entirely reasonable. If they don't measure up to your standards, that's just unfortunate.
What I take issue with is the implied message, that acknowledging the absence of a character because the actor died is somehow classless. I feel like Nolan never really wanted to reference the Joker (considering he carried the entire movie last time, which I doubt was the intention) and this is just a convenient excuse to settle down the fanboys.

And again, he's not even being consistent. If he wants to ignore it, okay, but then saying in interviews "they executed him", that's the really disgusting thing. That is disrespectful.

EDIT: Come to think of it, did Ledger even get a dedication on TDKR? (Did he even get one on TDK? I don't recall.) He was the reason the previous movie was so popular, after all.

"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...

 

Posted

Well I think the biggest disappointment is that had Ledger lived the movie probably would have been quite different from what we got. Not that I think the Joker would have been an integral part, but Heath's death certainly affected the script writing.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGob View Post
What I take issue with is the implied message, that acknowledging the absence of a character because the actor died is somehow classless. I feel like Nolan never really wanted to reference the Joker (considering he carried the entire movie last time, which I doubt was the intention) and this is just a convenient excuse to settle down the fanboys.

And again, he's not even being consistent. If he wants to ignore it, okay, but then saying in interviews "they executed him", that's the really disgusting thing. That is disrespectful.

EDIT: Come to think of it, did Ledger even get a dedication on TDKR? (Did he even get one on TDK? I don't recall.) He was the reason the previous movie was so popular, after all.
The thing about the implied messages that offend you is that you should direct your offense at the originator of those messages.

[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

 

Posted

I probably shouldn't bother, but I imagine that a large factor in not mentioning the Joker is to avoid knocking the audience out of the movie immersion. I know that it goes both ways and some of you would say, "not mentioning him knocked me out of the movie immersion", but, overall, the general audience can find it tough to separate an actor's death from the movie experience.
In TDK, the intensity of the script and the acting (and the enjoyment of being taken completely in by the late actor's fantastic performance) was enough to win most people over and the sad reality of his death didn't get in the way of it.
I can totally see any mention of the Joker in the subsequent movie making most people step outside the film, even just for a moment, and think, "Man... I wonder what would have been different if Ledger hadn't died". And/or any mention of the character is going to be an obvious attempt to explain away the reason the character is not present (and we all know the real reason why he was not present).
The people responsible for the movies don't want the audience to be thinking of such things. They wish for them to be enthralled by the movie.

Anyway, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything and I cannot speak for Nolan or anyone else on the real reason(s) why they made the decisions that they made.

All I can truthfully say is that I had no problem with the Joker not being mentioned at all.
My only problem with any of it is that Ledger died. Other than that... I have no real complaints.

@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight View Post
I probably shouldn't bother, but I imagine that a large factor in not mentioning the Joker is to avoid knocking the audience out of the movie immersion. I know that it goes both ways and some of you would say, "not mentioning him knocked me out of the movie immersion", but, overall, the general audience can find it tough to separate an actor's death from the movie experience.
In TDK, the intensity of the script and the acting (and the enjoyment of being taken completely in by the late actor's fantastic performance) was enough to win most people over and the sad reality of his death didn't get in the way of it.
I can totally see any mention of the Joker in the subsequent movie making most people step outside the film, even just for a moment, and think, "Man... I wonder what would have been different if Ledger hadn't died". And/or any mention of the character is going to be an obvious attempt to explain away the reason the character is not present (and we all know the real reason why he was not present).
The people responsible for the movies don't want the audience to be thinking of such things. They wish for them to be enthralled by the movie.

Anyway, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything and I cannot speak for Nolan or anyone else on the real reason(s) why they made the decisions that they made.

All I can truthfully say is that I had no problem with the Joker not being mentioned at all.
My only problem with any of it is that Ledger died. Other than that... I have no real complaints.
Those are my thoughts exactly. Any mention of the Joker in the movie would trigger, for most of the audience, a quick "oh yeah, Heath Ledger, that was sad" moment, and that break in immersion just isn't worth satisfying the handful of people who weren't content to assume the Joker's still in Arkham Asylum. The Joker isn't such an integral part of the Batman lore that his absence needs to be explained: lots of Batman stories never mention his whereabouts.

"Now, I'm not saying this guy at Microsoft sees gamers as a bunch of rats in a Skinner box. I'm just saying that he illustrates his theory of game design using pictures of rats in a Skinner box."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent White View Post
Well I think the biggest disappointment is that had Ledger lived the movie probably would have been quite different from what we got. Not that I think the Joker would have been an integral part, but Heath's death certainly affected the script writing.
I think the movie would have been more than just a little different.

I'd guess Joker in Bane's place with a shadow backer...Natalia.

BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight View Post
I probably shouldn't bother, but I imagine that a large factor in not mentioning the Joker is to avoid knocking the audience out of the movie immersion. I know that it goes both ways and some of you would say, "not mentioning him knocked me out of the movie immersion", but, overall, the general audience can find it tough to separate an actor's death from the movie experience.
In TDK, the intensity of the script and the acting (and the enjoyment of being taken completely in by the late actor's fantastic performance) was enough to win most people over and the sad reality of his death didn't get in the way of it.
I can totally see any mention of the Joker in the subsequent movie making most people step outside the film, even just for a moment, and think, "Man... I wonder what would have been different if Ledger hadn't died". And/or any mention of the character is going to be an obvious attempt to explain away the reason the character is not present (and we all know the real reason why he was not present).
The people responsible for the movies don't want the audience to be thinking of such things. They wish for them to be enthralled by the movie.
That's actually a lot more reasonable than any BS "respect" excuse. I think it's completely wrong, but I would actually believe it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I think the movie would have been more than just a little different.

I'd guess Joker in Bane's place with a shadow backer...Natalia.
...Do you mean Talia? It's hard to imagine Joker would have figured heavily into this movie if Ledger had not died. He certainly wouldn't be a stooge to anyone; not Bane, not Talia al Ghul, hell not even if it were Ra's al Ghul himself. Honestly, I think we would have gotten the exact same movie.

"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGob View Post
That's actually a lot more reasonable than any BS "respect" excuse. I think it's completely wrong, but I would actually believe it.


...Do you mean Talia? It's hard to imagine Joker would have figured heavily into this movie if Ledger had not died. He certainly wouldn't be a stooge to anyone; not Bane, not Talia al Ghul, hell not even if it were Ra's al Ghul himself. Honestly, I think we would have gotten the exact same movie.
I did mean Talia

But I think the movie would of been way different if Ledger had lived.

BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I did mean Talia

But I think the movie would of been way different if Ledger had lived.
Nope. Nolan has done that. No point in revisiting it. The only difference might have been a reference/brief cameo.Or, at the most extreme and controversial, Bane encounters Joker in prison and immediately snaps his neck.

I really should do something about this signature.

 

Posted

Quote:
Or, at the most extreme and controversial, Bane encounters Joker in prison and immediately snaps his neck.
I would have shown Bane's guys clearing out Arkham, opening the Joker's cell, and then have the Joker effortlessly kill them and say "Join you? What, do you think I'm crazy?" before leaving Gotham.

Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

 

Posted

Quite enjoyed the movie, and I think it was a good ending for the trilogy. A couple of thoughts:

Anne Hathaway was better than I expected, a pleasant surprise. Very much the CoX Rogue. Don't think the name "Catwoman" was actually used in the movie.

Bane was shown as a large, powerful man... not a freak of inhuman proportions. Also, no references to "Venom" as a source of his strength.

Recruiting an army of criminals and street orphans fits much better in Nolan's Bat-verse than cracking open Arkham did in Knightfall.

Alfred stands by the gravesites and says, in short, "I'm sorry, I failed." Is he speaking to one person, two, or all three?

BTW, what is the deal with putting Nolan's name in red letters, as I've seen several people do?

 

Posted

Loved it. I found it a very satisfying end to Nolan's Bat-arc. I'm glad to see that Bruce got his happy ending with Selina. In the comics world, Batman goes on endlessly, but in reality, there's just no way. I figure he could do that maybe 10 years at the most before the sheer physical toll just destroyed him. Death or retirement are his only real options. I'm glad to see Bruce gets to go have a life now.

The Pre-Crisis Earth-2 Batman had a very similar ending to his career. He retired as Batman, married his Selina Kyle, had a daughter, and turned over the protection of Gotham City to the now adult Robin. Bruce then devoted his time to Gotham in other ways, exercising the philanthropic arm of Wayne Enterprises, and eventually becoming the police commissioner himself.

If you look at the big guns, Bruce is really the only one with a very short finite career span. Superman is an alien (and Superman). Wonder Woman an ageless Amazon, Aquaman an Atlantean hybrid (no idea what his life span or aging process is), Flash has his speed powers, Green Lantern has his power ring, Martian Manhunter is also an alien and seemingly ageless. For all his sheer awesomeness, Bruce is just a guy in a costume with some really cool toys.

For him to be Batman for a time, and then pass it on to someone else is just natural progression. Its what I liked most about the post-Crisis, pre-DCnU era in DC Comics. Bruce trained Dick Grayson, and then Tim Drake, to eventually be his successor and take over. When he "died", Dick was there to take over. I enjoyed how Nolan gave Bruce his out, but still left Gotham with a protector, someone with the fire in his belly that Bruce had burned through.

�Life's hard. It's even harder when you're stupid.� ― John Wayne

�Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!� - George Carlin

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Sniper View Post
Alfred stands by the gravesites and says, in short, "I'm sorry, I failed." Is he speaking to one person, two, or all three?
That is probably a worthy discussion point.

I took it that he was speaking to the parents - apologizing for failing to take care of/keep safe Bruce.

City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.

R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chyll View Post
That is probably a worthy discussion point.

I took it that he was speaking to the parents - apologizing for failing to take care of/keep safe Bruce.
Agreed, I think he was facing more toward the parent's gravestones when he said that.

Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components

Tempus unum hominem manet

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chyll View Post
That is probably a worthy discussion point.

I took it that he was speaking to the parents - apologizing for failing to take care of/keep safe Bruce.
That's how I interpreted that scene as well. Its clear from the very beginning and throughout the movies that Alfred's loyalty is to the Wayne family, and he still feels responsible to Bruce's parents to look out for Bruce.

I actually imagined that scene mirrored an unfilmed scene in Batman Begins where Alfred promised the Waynes he would look after Bruce for them.

[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

 

Posted

There was also a bit in the trailers, that didn't make it to the movie, where Alfred says "You are as precious to me as you were to your own mother and father. I swore to them that I would protect you...and I haven't."

So his apology seems to me to be towards Bruce's parents.