Dark Knight Rises *there be spoilers here, seriously don't click if you don't want spoilers*
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2012-07-20 12:43 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
I don't know if it's been brought up before, but I also disliked how Gotham City went from being this cool gothic take on NYC, to being panoramic shots of Manhattan.
Sure, I get it, the Harvey Dent Act magically cleaned up all crime, but surely they didn't tear down every building sporting a bit of gothic architecture. That would be a crime! 
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I understand what you're saying here. It's the same basic reason that explains why when most Americans think of "animated movies" they are hardwired into assuming they all have to be some variation of a classic Disney "princess" movie. I'm not saying things like Snow White and Cinderella are bad, just saying it's amazing how so many people are not willing to let their mindset of animated movies break out of that basic formula.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Well sadly most non-comic book fans consider the concept of a costume superhero as automatically camp. Actually anybody dressed too differently than the general public is considered strange and probably should be avoided. I think Iron-man got a bit of a pass by the general public because his armor is his power, not just something to disguise himself or instill fear in the cowardly hearts of criminals. Thor on the other hand would get beer cans thrown at him by drunk teenagers out joyriding.
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I would only caution that the definition of "camp" being tossed around here seems to be far too broad for its own good. I mean if you're going to dump "people wearing strange costumes" into that category then almost every serious science fiction and historical period drama could also be broadly labeled as "camp" and I really don't think that applies. So yes while there's a chunk of society who'll always automatically assume anything having to do with superheroes will be some variation of our beloved Adam West I figure since most people in this forum know better we might as well not make the same mistake.
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West and Bale represent the two ends of the spectrum. West was super, extreme campy while Bale went for microscopic to non-existent levels of camp. The animated series, I think, struck the happy balance. Capturing Batman's dark, moody tone and themes while still utilizing his full entourage and history.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
For instance I think we can all agree that Adam West's portrayal of Batman was the very quintessential example of campiness. There was very little to make you think that he could have been an "actual" superhero like that in the real world. On the other hand apart from some of the more science-fictiony bits of technology Nolan's Batman uses his take on the character is just about as "realistic" and NON-CAMPY as you can get with this material.
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Heck, they put Ace the Bathound in Batman Beyond. To me, THAT shows an understanding and love of the character. Much more than just sweeping anything you don't like under the rug.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Well sadly most non-comic book fans consider the concept of a costume superhero as automatically camp.
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I think the bigger problem is that society has this view that "camp" is automatically a bad thing. People are in such a frenzy to make their movie, book, etc. "meaningful" and "realistic", that they feel any hint of levity or fantasy will spoil it.
Camp is not automatically negative. In fact, it can be a very important element to have. Like angst, pathos, tragedy, comedy, or any other broad literary themes; it's all in how you use it. And if used correctly, even camp can be an advantage to a story.
You can bet Nolan's "camp-less" Batman would've never saved a transformed Wonder Woman by singing. No, cause that would've been too silly.
Camp as defined in Merriam Webster.
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When I looked it up, I got this one;|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Camp as defined in Merriam Webster.
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Camp n. or Campy adj. refers to intentionally exaggerated thematic or genre elements, especially in television and motion picture mediums.
YAY for posting definitions!!
So yeah, "exaggerated thematic or genre elements" certainly sound like superheroes to me. Or do you think that an actual, real-life Batman WOULDN'T be dead within a week?
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Using your definition I think the key phrase there is "intentionally exaggerated". West's batman was clearly "intentionally exaggerated" - I would argue that Bale's was not. Nolan's take on Batman gives us plenty of action and high-tech gadgetry, but with regards to the "superhero" aspects it's pretty sober and understated. Heck they didn't even really call Catwoman "Catwoman" in this movie - can't get much less "exaggerated" than that.|
Originally Posted by Cowman
So yeah, "exaggerated thematic or genre elements" certainly sound like superheroes to me. Or do you think that an actual, real-life Batman WOULDN'T be dead within a week?
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For the record I don't regard "camp" as a quality that has to be regarded as a negative. It has it's place and in some shows/movies it's pretty fun. I suppose I'm simply having a hard time accepting the idea that anything superhero oriented must automatically have some degree of camp to it. For me camp is not an inherent quality of ANY genre. Yes you can easily gear superhero movies towards being campy, but there is no type of story that's automatically hardwired as campy.
Again I think there's more a generic suspension of disbelief at work here. I don't think anyone could seriously look at Adam West's Batman and really think "Yeah, that's exactly how a Batman in real life would be". The settings and acting portrayed in those 1960s shows were so farcical and exaggerated that we all pretty much just enjoyed the silliness and accepted it as "not realistic in the least". Once we accepted it as such we could easily define it as "camp".
On the other hand Nolan's Batman is a much more realistic portrayal of what a character like that might be in real life. Yes we all know that there's still no such thing as a real Batman. But like good science fiction Nolan's Batman is "real enough" that the few bits of fiction necessary to make the story work are easily accepted as at least plausibly possible.
You mention a spectrum of campiness and I certainly agree that some things are campier than others. But for me it's not that West and Bale are at opposite ends of a spectrum - for me it's more like West IS camp and Bale IS NOT camp. I see a fairly strict binary difference between the two.
In summary just because both West's and Bale's Batmen are fiction doesn't make them both inherently campy. Shakespeare has a bunch of people acting oftentimes in "intentionally exaggerated" costumes but I wouldn't call his work campy by default either.
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I've always considered that there is an intentional quality to make something camp, making a genre that's not normally a comedy into one. I'm annoyed that a lot of youths consider dramas from the 60s and 70s as, by default, camp, as oppose to the accepted style of the day. I'm talking shows like Dragnet, Emergency and Perry Mason.
Greatest American Hero was camp while The Incredible Hulk wasn't. GAH took the superhero TV genre and played it for laughs.
Nolan's Batman is definitely not played for laughs.
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It's the acting styles. They've changed a lot sense then.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
I've always considered that there is an intentional quality to make something camp, making a genre that's not normally a comedy into one. I'm annoyed that a lot of youths consider dramas from the 60s and 70s as, by default, camp, as oppose to the accepted style of the day. I'm talking shows like Dragnet, Emergency and Perry Mason.
Greatest American Hero was camp while The Incredible Hulk wasn't. GAH took the superhero TV genre and played it for laughs. Nolan's Batman is definitely not played for laughs. |
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
I've always considered that there is an intentional quality to make something camp, making a genre that's not normally a comedy into one. I'm annoyed that a lot of youths consider dramas from the 60s and 70s as, by default, camp, as oppose to the accepted style of the day. I'm talking shows like Dragnet, Emergency and Perry Mason.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
It's the acting styles. They've changed a lot sense then.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Greatest American Hero was camp while The Incredible Hulk wasn't. GAH took the superhero TV genre and played it for laughs.
Nolan's Batman is definitely not played for laughs. |
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It's a lot easier to pull that off in an animated medium versus live action.
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Originally Posted by Cowman
West and Bale represent the two ends of the spectrum. West was super, extreme campy while Bale went for microscopic to non-existent levels of camp. The animated series, I think, struck the happy balance. Capturing Batman's dark, moody tone and themes while still utilizing his full entourage and history.
Heck, they put Ace the Bathound in Batman Beyond. To me, THAT shows an understanding and love of the character. Much more than just sweeping anything you don't like under the rug. |
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Which is one of the only problems I have with Nolan's otherwise excellent Batman movies. Maybe Catwoman, Poison Ivy, Penguin, Robin, and the rest aren't all that realistic; but they're all part of Batman's universe, history, and character.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Heck they didn't even really call Catwoman "Catwoman" in this movie - can't get much less "exaggerated" than that.
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Implying that they're too silly or campy for Mr. Nolan's grown-up Batman movies seems a disservice to the source material to me. I know I should just regard it as an alternate version of the character, but it still bothers me.
Though, if I'm understanding your points correctly, I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything. It seems to be mainly a case of semantics. You see "suspension of disbelief" as a separate thing, where I think of camp as a form of "suspension of disbelief". Heck, I'd call Scarface and the Lord of the Ring movies a bit campy.
Again, don't get me wrong. I thought all the Nolan Batman movies were really good; the Dark Knight would be on my list of favorite superhero movies. I just wish we could've seen what he could have done with Robin and villains like Poison Ivy and Mr. Freeze.
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See, I might have agreed before. But after the success of Spiderman, Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America; I don't think I buy that anymore.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
It's a lot easier to pull that off in an animated medium versus live action.
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If you can make a serious Capt. America movie and STILL have the big 'A' on his forehead and the little wings on his mask, then I say the other folks just ain't trying hard enough.
Loki had those honkin' huge horns!! Nothing's more ridiculous than those frickin' things, and they totally worked. I think Nolan made great movies starring Batman. I'm just not sure he made great Batman movies.
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Hahaha, I remember that! |
Originally Posted by Cowman
Heck, they put Ace the Bathound in Batman Beyond. To me, THAT shows an understanding and love of the character. Much more than just sweeping anything you don't like under the rug.
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See but that's the thing, you're going with this assumption that there is only one correct Batman. The Batman character is 70 years old and has seen lots of different versions and styles. Nolan's take on the mythos is just as valid as the deliberately campy 60's show.|
Originally Posted by Cowman
See, I might have agreed before. But after the success of Spiderman, Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America; I don't think I buy that anymore.
If you can make a serious Capt. America movie and STILL have the big 'A' on his forehead and the little wings on his mask, then I say the other folks just ain't trying hard enough. Loki had those honkin' huge horns!! Nothing's more ridiculous than those frickin' things, and they totally worked. I think Nolan made great movies starring Batman. I'm just not sure he made great Batman movies. |
Nolan set out to create the most plausible world where Batman could exist and he succeeded. You could still have Poison Ivy and the Penguin in this world and they would work just fine (ecoterrorist, gangster with a nickname), they just didn't fit into the themes that Nolan wanted to explore. But then you start getting into Batman's more super-science enemies, like Mr. Freeze and Clayface, and you have you start inventing pseudo-science handwavium explanations for their abilities. And there's nothing wrong with that, but you can't do that while your intention is to make the world as realistic as possible.
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Oh I know. And like I said earlier, its mostly just my personal feelings on the matter. For me, trying to go super-realistic with a superhero kinda defeats the point of HAVING a superhero. Even a non-powered one like Batman.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
See but that's the thing, you're going with this assumption that there is only one correct Batman. The Batman character is 70 years old and has seen lots of different versions and styles. Nolan's take on the mythos is just as valid as the deliberately campy 60's show.
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Again, this is just my feelings and not to take anything away from Nolan's Bat-movies; they're great. Maybe that's what makes it tougher for me. Seeing the Joker done so well, I wanna see Batman's other iconic villains handled just as well. To me, Poison Ivy and Mr. Freeze don't seem like too big of a leap in believability.
But I suppose that's just cause I'm a comic fan so I'm more accepting of that kind of thing.
Oh well, maybe they'll get into that kind of stuff now that Nolan's leaving and they're making the Justice League movie.
Think my biggest problem with super hero related films is that I want them to be as close to their comic books as possible, and that isn't possible.
Taking the latest Batman movie and putting it out as a 4 issue mini series in comic books, I would have most probably brought the 1st issue and thought meh, I'll not bother with the rest.
I just don't think a comic book to film or vice versa work.
Now I believe comic books put into a 45min episode season long TV show's do work as people can over time relate to the heroes and villians. Smallville was a good start, but ultimately failed at the death as it really never progressed past CK's origin. If it would been allowed to progress and continue with him as Superman and continue along the lines of going up against proper villians, having cameos of top superheroes, put at later time past the watershed to spice things up a bit, it would have been a good watch.
Batman TV show worked because most of the time the social aspect of Bruce Wayne was kept to a minimal and identity kept secret, top villians often featured none of whom were ever killed off at the end of each episode, and all of that was done without high end CGI and overpaid actors.
I would rather they brought out more superhero TV shows like Batman of the past rather than feature films that can't portray comic books the right way due to budget, time frame or age ratings.
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Nuuuuu! I liked the 60's Batman, but I don't want to see the return to that. It'd just return comics to that.
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Originally Posted by Slazenger
Think my biggest problem with super hero related films is that I want them to be as close to their comic books as possible, and that isn't possible.
Taking the latest Batman movie and putting it out as a 4 issue mini series in comic books, I would have most probably brought the 1st issue and thought meh, I'll not bother with the rest. I just don't think a comic book to film or vice versa work. Now I believe comic books put into a 45min episode season long TV show's do work as people can over time relate to the heroes and villians. Smallville was a good start, but ultimately failed at the death as it really never progressed past CK's origin. If it would been allowed to progress and continue with him as Superman and continue along the lines of going up against proper villians, having cameos of top superheroes, put at later time past the watershed to spice things up a bit, it would have been a good watch. Batman TV show worked because most of the time the social aspect of Bruce Wayne was kept to a minimal and identity kept secret, top villians often featured none of whom were ever killed off at the end of each episode, and all of that was done without high end CGI and overpaid actors. I would rather they brought out more superhero TV shows like Batman of the past rather than feature films that can't portray comic books the right way due to budget, time frame or age ratings. |
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This really doesn't have much to do with anything, but the recent back and forth just keeps making me think of this:
The one thing that really bothered me about Nolan's "realistic" Batman movies is...
The unrealistic falling damage - At least in one scene, but I'm pretty sure there was more than one.
The Dark Knight: I love it, truly... but when Batman and Rachel fall out of the building and crash (was it onto a parked car?)... Yeah, no... Not a huge deal, but it knocks me out of the movie every single time and makes me sigh.
Rachel landing on top of Bruce doesn't do anyone any good and he'd be in a world of hurt without her weight on him... and even worse with it (despite her light weight).
It just bugs me.
Oh, and when, earlier, Batman jumps down on the van trying to race away out of the parking garage.
It's cool... I like how it is showing the extent that Bruce is willing to throw his mortal body into things, but... if he can survive these things so well, he's not as fragile as he should be.
Again, just a little thing and some obvious Hollywood embellishment, but hey... that doesn't make it okay.
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