Dark Knight Rises *there be spoilers here, seriously don't click if you don't want spoilers*
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2012-07-20 12:43 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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There's a difference between being meta, and being ambiguous. But most people, even most reviewers of the movie, failed to see the distinction.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Apart from the director's past movie history. In this case, Inception. Which is surely not so subtle that people who missed it first time round have to make up excuses...
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Inception is Nolan's love-letter to story telling. Its a movie about story telling. The movie uses the same tools the characters in the movie use to draw people into *their* story, and it tries to plant ideas in the viewer's head by telling a story about characters trying to plant an idea in another character's head. Cobb's whole plan is to present theater to Fischer, just as the audience sees the story Nolan is trying to tell through the theater of the action movie he presents.
The ending is actually pretty simple in construction. Cobb actually says to Ariadne (and his projection of Mal) what his real touchstone is between dream and reality: his guilt. He feels guilty about killing Mal, and that guilt reminds him that Mal is dead, and any world in which Mal is alive must be false. His scene with her projection is his trying to make partial peace with that guilt. Its why even in limbo, Cobb ultimately manages to regain his sense of what's real, and how he's able to take the leap of faith again to escape limbo.
Once he does, and he sees his children, he just knows he's in the real world. He takes out the totem out of reflex, but he doesn't stay to watch it. Cobb has decided it no longer matters what the totem does. He knows in any dream world where he can bring projections, his guilt will ultimately bring Mal. A world that has his children who he wants to see more than anything, but doesn't have Mal who he most wants to bring back, is the real world.
So why does the camera linger on the totem? So *we* can decide if we care what the totem does. We're the meta characters Nolan is bringing along in his story. He wants to see what we'll do with his inception attempt. He wants people discussing and debating his movie. But *not* because the story is ambiguous. Because the story was designed to incite.
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a) Inception is a case of people missing the point and reading too much into things. There are people who pull the same stunt with Minority Report, claiming everything after Anderton gets haloed is a dream. Spielberg has said, point-blank, "we wouldn't do that to the audience, that would be stupid" but it doesn't stop anyone. Don't even get me started on Total Recall, which also drags in the "director re-interpreting his work" angle, since Verhooven's explanation of the ending varied according to whether or not he thought he was going to get to make a sequel at the time he was asked. Ironically that sequel would have been Minority Report. Of course both movies as well as Blade Runner (no, Ridley, Deckard is not a replicant) were based on the works of Phillip K. Dick, so maybe these issues aren't surprising since at any given moment he probably wasn't sure if he was hallucinating or not.| Apart from the director's past movie history. In this case, Inception. Which is surely not so subtle that people who missed it first time round have to make up excuses... |
b) The Dark Knight Rises is not Inception. It is its own movie and has to be evaluated on its own terms. Arguing that the ending is ambiguous because the same director made Inception is like expecting characters to walk off of movie screens in every Woody Allen movie because he made The Purple Rose of Cairo or expecting every Terry Gilliam movie to end with "it was a dream" because he made Brazil.
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It's exactly what's on the box.|
Originally Posted by Venture
And sometimes directors creatively reinterpret their work after the fact, and sometimes people read way too much into things. There is no reason to believe the end of TDKR is anything but what it appears to be.
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Batman tells Gordon no autopilot so everyone thinks he died. He "tells" Gordon who he is so when Bruce Wayne vanishes it confirms it.
He has the "clean slate" device/code that allows him to erase his and Selena's digital footprint in the world. Since Bruce Wayne is officially dead and there is no way to confirm his identity in any database he can recreate himself and Selena.
He intentionally showed himself to Alfred because of those who knew Bruce, he would be the one most in pain due to his "death". Lucius would know once it was revealed the autopilot was fixed. Alfred already told him that he would only acknowledge him with a look. Also notice Selena was wearing the "missing" pearls so yes Bruce did have something set aside for a rainy day or the pearls would be out of place.
Overall I enjoyed the film. It's pace is very much a Nolan pace like in Inception or The Prestige.
I think Anne Hathaway's Selina was great. She really was on equal footing with Batman when it comes to ability and planning.
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Something else to remember. In TDK, they talk about how Romans would go all marshal law and apoint one man to protect the city.
Then mentioned how the last one they did that with never let the spot go.
"Die a hero or live to see yourself become a villain"
Being the real world (as much as it was) the only other way Batman could go out was being killed. Guess he could of ended up like he did in Batman Beyond.
Bruce also came to the conclusion that the city was protected enough by the police force now. It wasn't the same police force from 8 years ago. There was less corruption. Less villains with badges and more heroes with badges.
And yeah, Alfred seeing Bruce with Selena I think backs that up as "I'm alive" as with everything else. Bruce made sure to keep those he was close to in the know, that he was in fact, alive.
The bat signal. The autopilot (Bruce likely knew Fox would find out the autopilot was fixed, just as he knew Fox was the right one to work the city wide sonar and that it would need to be destroyed after it was used for it's one purpose "Have their faith rewarded").
Of course, this doesn't mean Bruce can't return as Batman. Though, if they did continue Nolan's universe, I think I'd rather see Bruce and Selena's daughter return to Gotham as The Huntress with John as an older now retired Batman or Nightwing.
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I think its really a matter of closure. It was closure enough for Gordon to know that the boy he reached out to long ago became the man who was inspired to become the Batman, and that Gotham was saved by the acts of people like Gordon, even if Batman became the symbol of that salvation.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
It's exactly what's on the box.
Batman tells Gordon no autopilot so everyone thinks he died. He "tells" Gordon who he is so when Bruce Wayne vanishes it confirms it. He has the "clean slate" device/code that allows him to erase his and Selena's digital footprint in the world. Since Bruce Wayne is officially dead and there is no way to confirm his identity in any database he can recreate himself and Selena. He intentionally showed himself to Alfred because of those who knew Bruce, he would be the one most in pain due to his "death". Lucius would know once it was revealed the autopilot was fixed. Alfred already told him that he would only acknowledge him with a look. Also notice Selena was wearing the "missing" pearls so yes Bruce did have something set aside for a rainy day or the pearls would be out of place. |
It was closure enough for Lucius to know that one last time Bruce Wayne thought his way out of a bind.
The closure Alfred needed was to know that his effort was not in vain: that Bruce forgave him and had fulfilled his (Alfred's) dream to finally move past the death of his parents and live his life.
They were the three people who really mattered to Bruce, and he gave them each the closure they deserved after he decided to leave Bruce Wayne behind. I believe that this was his plan from the moment he escaped the pit.
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And what a good reason to quit for, Bruce Wayne didn't owe the world [censored]. He paid a dearly in terms of the damage to his body, the death of his parents and the death of Rachel (even though Harvey had won here over) all to take on the crime and corruption in Gotham then add to that the cover up over Dents death and Batman taking the PE#1 spot.|
Originally Posted by Unknown_User
I don't care because as far as I'm concerned he quit. he quit because he found a gal to settle down with
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I'm glad he got the girl and walked away from being both Batman and Bruce Wayne, he deserved it.
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I think the movie even hinted at that outcome, with Batman driving away everyone he cares about and winding up bitter and alone in his mansion. In this story, he just caught himself in time to stop that from playing out as completely as it had by the time Batman Beyond started. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Being the real world (as much as it was) the only other way Batman could go out was being killed. Guess he could of ended up like he did in Batman Beyond.
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Also, the physical injuries he'd sustained can't be overstated: Bruce couldn't even walk anymore without a cane or a leg brace, and then Bane tore him up even worse. He pushed himself through one last battle, but, even if he hadn't vanished, he couldn't keep being Batman much longer. Knowing that, and also knowing that he'd never be able to let go so long as he's still in Gotham, was probably part of why he left.
Also...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I think its really a matter of closure. It was closure enough for Gordon to know that the boy he reached out to long ago became the man who was inspired to become the Batman, and that Gotham was saved by the acts of people like Gordon, even if Batman became the symbol of that salvation.
It was closure enough for Lucius to know that one last time Bruce Wayne thought his way out of a bind. The closure Alfred needed was to know that his effort was not in vain: that Bruce forgave him and had fulfilled his (Alfred's) dream to finally move past the death of his parents and live his life. They were the three people who really mattered to Bruce, and he gave them each the closure they deserved after he decided to leave Bruce Wayne behind. I believe that this was his plan from the moment he escaped the pit. |
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Personally I think Christopher Nolans Batman trilogy is perhaps one of the best ever done. Of course I could be biased because I happen to be a Batman fanboy....still, just taking the series as a whole it is truly something special.
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Bravo! Always been a fan of your work and this post is no exception.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There's a difference between being meta, and being ambiguous. But most people, even most reviewers of the movie, failed to see the distinction.
Inception is Nolan's love-letter to story telling. Its a movie about story telling. The movie uses the same tools the characters in the movie use to draw people into *their* story, and it tries to plant ideas in the viewer's head by telling a story about characters trying to plant an idea in another character's head. Cobb's whole plan is to present theater to Fischer, just as the audience sees the story Nolan is trying to tell through the theater of the action movie he presents. The ending is actually pretty simple in construction. Cobb actually says to Ariadne (and his projection of Mal) what his real touchstone is between dream and reality: his guilt. He feels guilty about killing Mal, and that guilt reminds him that Mal is dead, and any world in which Mal is alive must be false. His scene with her projection is his trying to make partial peace with that guilt. Its why even in limbo, Cobb ultimately manages to regain his sense of what's real, and how he's able to take the leap of faith again to escape limbo. Once he does, and he sees his children, he just knows he's in the real world. He takes out the totem out of reflex, but he doesn't stay to watch it. Cobb has decided it no longer matters what the totem does. He knows in any dream world where he can bring projections, his guilt will ultimately bring Mal. A world that has his children who he wants to see more than anything, but doesn't have Mal who he most wants to bring back, is the real world. So why does the camera linger on the totem? So *we* can decide if we care what the totem does. We're the meta characters Nolan is bringing along in his story. He wants to see what we'll do with his inception attempt. He wants people discussing and debating his movie. But *not* because the story is ambiguous. Because the story was designed to incite. |
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This actually brings up something that you dont generally see in comics: Wear and Tear injuries. A lot of the injuries Bruce has is consistent with type of injuries many a post career football player has. There is a reason why football players have careers of maybe five years if their lucky, its all of the physical punishment they place on their bodies. Likewise, some other athletes suffer the same thing, there is a reason why you wont see a middle aged gymnast in the Olympics. While this can be explained in some like Superman, the Hulk, or Spider-man, that it is a function of being a superhuman, but other examples like Bats or Daredevil?|
Originally Posted by ebon3
And what a good reason to quit for, Bruce Wayne didn't owe the world [censored]. He paid a dearly in terms of the damage to his body, the death of his parents and the death of Rachel (even though Harvey had won here over) all to take on the crime and corruption in Gotham then add to that the cover up over Dents death and Batman taking the PE#1 spot.
I'm glad he got the girl and walked away from being both Batman and Bruce Wayne, he deserved it. |
So what this means for comic book Batman
-He has minor regenerative abilities that helps with wear and tear injuries.
-He takes periodic baths in Lazarus Pits
-He has access to medicine more advanced than what we have.
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As I recall, after his back was broken, he got it healed by a woman with the ability to cure anyone she laid hands on.
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Originally Posted by Tocharon
-He has access to medicine more advanced than what we have.
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Or he's a superhero and thus reality doesn't apply, pending writer decision. |
Originally Posted by Tocharon
This actually brings up something that you dont generally see in comics: Wear and Tear injuries. A lot of the injuries Bruce has is consistent with type of injuries many a post career football player has. There is a reason why football players have careers of maybe five years if their lucky, its all of the physical punishment they place on their bodies. Likewise, some other athletes suffer the same thing, there is a reason why you wont see a middle aged gymnast in the Olympics. While this can be explained in some like Superman, the Hulk, or Spider-man, that it is a function of being a superhuman, but other examples like Bats or Daredevil?
So what this means for comic book Batman -He has minor regenerative abilities that helps with wear and tear injuries. -He takes periodic baths in Lazarus Pits -He has access to medicine more advanced than what we have. |
Batman can beat anything given time to prepare, up to and including Physical Inevitablity.
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I liked the movie, but not enough where issues didn't bother me during the film. If I truly love a film I won't even notice nitpicky stuff, I'll be too engrossed in the film... But this one I was all but looking for niticks.
Money issues... Really? He took 8 years off to do absolutely nothing? Couldn't even keep up on company issues? How pathetic is this guy? And he's supposedly super paranoid and ready for any situation but he doesn't set up a trust fund for the orphange, just cuts a check every month? He doesn't have a hundred different hidden bank accounts?? And he goes so broke so fast the turn his ights off immediately? As any poor person in this country... Don't happen. Same with the impounding of vehicles. I mean seriously.
Bruce Wayne gives up? First to go into seclusion. Then after returning to go into hiding?? And I do not buy he set up someone else to take up his mantle. Yeah, this Robin gets directions to the bat cave but so what? He has no resources to pay it's electric bill. He also doesn't have the training to do what Batman did. All in all, he's setting that guy up to be killed.
Alfred quits? Huzzuh?? No. Almost as ludicrous as Wayne quitting.
Oh... And Robin knew he was Batman because of a look in his eye? And that's all it took? Sorry, silly. Stupid and silly. Mainly stupid.
But the movie didn't suck. And Hathaway as Catwoman, imo, was awesome. I thought she was amazing. I would go see a Hathaway Catwoman movie in a heartbeat.
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You're basing your opinion of what Bruce Wayne might do on one writer's (or several writers') interpretation of the man. The director has another. Neither one is more right or wrong than the other. It's called story telling.|
Originally Posted by Caemgen
Money issues... Really? He took 8 years off to do absolutely nothing? Couldn't even keep up on company issues? How pathetic is this guy? And he's supposedly super paranoid and ready for any situation but he doesn't set up a trust fund for the orphange, just cuts a check every month? He doesn't have a hundred different hidden bank accounts?? And he goes so broke so fast the turn his ights off immediately? As any poor person in this country... Don't happen. Same with the impounding of vehicles. I mean seriously. |
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| Bruce Wayne gives up? First to go into seclusion. Then after returning to go into hiding?? And I do not buy he set up someone else to take up his mantle. Yeah, this Robin gets directions to the bat cave but so what? He has no resources to pay it's electric bill. He also doesn't have the training to do what Batman did. All in all, he's setting that guy up to be killed. |
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| Alfred quits? Huzzuh?? No. Almost as ludicrous as Wayne quitting. |
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| Oh... And Robin knew he was Batman because of a look in his eye? And that's all it took? Sorry, silly. Stupid and silly. Mainly stupid. |
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But that's not the Nolan Batman.
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Originally Posted by Caemgen
And he's supposedly super paranoid and ready for any situation but
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Ya, ya, ya... But if you change too much about a character or the world they exist in it eventually stops being that character and that world. I believe Nolan crossed that point. As suggested, this is not Batman. This is Nolan's Batman. Frankly I prefer the real thing.
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The movie brings up the point that Bruce could've, rather easily, resisted being dropped the way he was, but instead, he deliberately chose to let things happen that way.
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Originally Posted by Caemgen
Money issues... Really? He took 8 years off to do absolutely nothing? Couldn't even keep up on company issues? How pathetic is this guy? And he's supposedly super paranoid and ready for any situation but he doesn't set up a trust fund for the orphange, just cuts a check every month? He doesn't have a hundred different hidden bank accounts?? And he goes so broke so fast the turn his ights off immediately? As any poor person in this country... Don't happen. Same with the impounding of vehicles. I mean seriously.
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SPOILERS|
Originally Posted by Caemgen
Ya, ya, ya... But if you change too much about a character or the world they exist in it eventually stops being that character and that world. I believe Nolan crossed that point. As suggested, this is not Batman. This is Nolan's Batman. Frankly I prefer the real thing.
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Batman is not actually real.
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Batman hasn't looked like the Bob Kane Batman in decades.|
Originally Posted by Caemgen
Ya, ya, ya... But if you change too much about a character or the world they exist in it eventually stops being that character and that world. I believe Nolan crossed that point. As suggested, this is not Batman. This is Nolan's Batman. Frankly I prefer the real thing.
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So which one is the "real" one? The one in the current comics, or the one in the comics before they just rebooted the comic, or the DCAU Batman, or the Silver Age Batman, or the Golden Age Batman? Was the Year One Batman the real Batman? Its considered generally canonical, and Batman Begins parallels it in many ways.
But then again, who is Christopher Nolan to depart so dramatically from the current state of the comic books. I mean, the last time we let someone get away with that, we got The Dark Knight Returns. And look at how bad that turned out.
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I don't care to argue which story arc, limited series, graphic novel or whatever is the one best definitive Batman or anything of the sort. I couldn't even if I cared to, I was never that huge into Batman. But it seems to me there are certain constants in the mythos which should be respected... And in this last movie I do not feel as if Nolan did that.
I don't mind changes for the sake of storytelling, or even just for ease of storytelling. You want Spiderman to shoot webs out of his wrist instead or a webshooter? Sure, whatever. But he's still shooting webs. You start having him shooting lasers and I'm going to have an issue with that though... I view Wayne retiring/quiting to be as big, if not a bigger, departure from the mythos. I also find it arrogant that Nolan all but said "and this is where the story ends."
Your views and taste obviously vary, and good on ya for that. I'm not trying to change your viewpoint, merely expressing my own.
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All of them |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Batman hasn't looked like the Bob Kane Batman in decades.
So which one is the "real" one? The one in the current comics, or the one in the comics before they just rebooted the comic, or the DCAU Batman, or the Silver Age Batman, or the Golden Age Batman? Was the Year One Batman the real Batman? Its considered generally canonical, and Batman Begins parallels it in many ways. |
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| But then again, who is Christopher Nolan to depart so dramatically from the current state of the comic books. I mean, the last time we let someone get away with that, we got The Dark Knight Returns. And look at how bad that turned out. |
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Such as?|
Originally Posted by Caemgen
I don't care to argue which story arc, limited series, graphic novel or whatever is the one best definitive Batman or anything of the sort. I couldn't even if I cared to, I was never that huge into Batman. But it seems to me there are certain constants in the mythos which should be respected... And in this last movie I do not feel as if Nolan did that.
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| I don't mind changes for the sake of storytelling, or even just for ease of storytelling. You want Spiderman to shoot webs out of his wrist instead or a webshooter? Sure, whatever. But he's still shooting webs. You start having him shooting lasers and I'm going to have an issue with that though... I view Wayne retiring/quiting to be as big, if not a bigger, departure from the mythos. I also find it arrogant that Nolan all but said "and this is where the story ends." |
In The Dark Knight Returns Bruce Wayne comes to the same conclusion Wayne does in the Dark Knight Rises: that the world doesn't need Batman to save it: it needs to save itself. He stages Batman's death so he can go underground and work with the people as a "normal", if also smart and crazy person to bring order to Gotham and the rest of the world. The only difference being in The Dark Knight Rises Gotham didn't need an underground vigilante group to rescue it from a totalitarian government. Bruce could ride off into the sunset, whereas in The Dark Knight Returns Bruce still had a mission after the Batman "dies."
But in all the important ways, The Dark Knight Rises comes to the same conclusion that The Dark Knight Returns does: that Bruce doesn't need to be Batman anymore, that Batman served its purpose and the time came for him to go away.
That arrogant Miller really messed up didn't he?
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| Your views and taste obviously vary, and good on ya for that. I'm not trying to change your viewpoint, merely expressing my own. |
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Fixed...|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That crazy Miller really messed up didn't he? |
Sorry Arcanaville, but it was Frank Miller, not Moore, that wrote/drew Dark Knight Returns. Though Moore did give a Intro in one version of the TPB collection.
Thank you for the time...
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
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