Street Justice and general points refunds.
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-10-05 09:31 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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You'll get used to it.|
Once again I am agreeing with Venture. I'm beginning to feel sick just typing that sentence. |
Everyone does.
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If set performance was that big of an issue, enough so to spread the 'discussion' to two seperate boards, then why did you go ahead and impulse buy the set instead of sitting back and waiting for the reviews and number crunching to come in before you pressed the buy button?
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
You are making a very very big assumption
That I am the only one who bought the set and is unhappy with it. |
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On that note, and speaking in a general sense about no one in particular and about general business practices and not any company in particular:|
Originally Posted by Venture
Having read your posts for years and having done my fair share of work in retail, I can say without hesitation you are emblematic of the type of customer I would go to great lengths to lose.
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Accounts tend to have some way for CS to keep notes about the customer. Often those are used to take note of any actions taken, like providing refunds. For completely legitimate reasons, or just a first-time issue, it's fine to do it. No reason to make someone upset and get unwanted attention for the issue over a single purchase.
It's when it becomes a repeat issue that you need to cut a bad customer loose because it doesn't matter if they've been shopping here for seven years if they use up more CS time/money than anyone else.
People's arguments that "so it's middle of the road, every new powerset doesn't have to be uber" are null.
Yes, not every new powerset has to be uber. Free powersets don't have to be uber. But powersets you have to pay should be superior to free powersets. Otherwise, make them free.
Personally, I'm not a powergamer, I never choose powersets because they're good. I haven't bought Street Justice, but that's because I have no desire to do so, not because it is not that great (I didn't find that out until this thread).
But people do powergame. Powersets that you have to pay for should be in every aspect superior to free powersets, both in in-game effectiveness and other appeal (interesting mechanics, looks good, interesting concept). It doesn't have to be better than all Melee sets in every way. But in my opinion, it has to be so good that it fills a niche where a powergamer will go, that's a powerset I can use.
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Completely and thoroughly disagree.|
Originally Posted by BeyondReach
People's arguments that "so it's middle of the road, every new powerset doesn't have to be uber" are null.
Yes, not every new powerset has to be uber. Free powersets don't have to be uber. But powersets you have to pay should be superior to free powersets. Otherwise, make them free. |
And from looking at Beam Rifle and the epicness that is Time Manipulation, so do the devs. Whether something is going to be bought or is free should have no bearing on balance.
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This would be a net loss to you.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Yeah they can close the account, but they would loose a paying customer who has been with them for 7 years and I would loose my account.
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| But I would still get the money back. |
As has been pointed out.
You used a credit card to pay for POINTS.
The points were delivered to you.
How you distribute those points are up to you. But they are one-time-use ONLY with NO refunds.
If you want to purpose-kill a 7 year vet account over one power set you bought that you don't happen to like, that's on you. I'd call an action like that crazy though.
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Someone is ALWAYS going to be unhappy.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
I already said Im not upset enough to do the chargeback, but it is an option that some players may take.
Im sure they dont want to be dealing with all that. They need a refund system to deal with unhappy players in their house instead of someone else's. Which has been my point all along |
And someone is ALWAYS going to be looking for greener pastures.
NCSoft isn't a bank.
They don't want to have to do more than have you buy points and then debit them from the system. Trading powers in and out with points is an absolute fuster-cluck waiting to happen.
YOU didn't do the due-diligence before buying it.
If you're unhappy with it, go look in the mirror. THAT is the person responsible. Feel free to take out your aggressions on them.
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So does that mean that every melee powerset we purchase has to be better than SS? |
Originally Posted by BeyondReach
But people do powergame. Powersets that you have to pay for should be in every aspect superior to free powersets, both in in-game effectiveness and other appeal (interesting mechanics, looks good, interesting concept). It doesn't have to be better than all Melee sets in every way. But in my opinion, it has to be so good that it fills a niche where a powergamer will go, that's a powerset I can use.
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Also, I'm not quite understanding how "should be in every aspect superior to free powersets, both in in-game effectiveness" goes with "doesn't have to be better than all Melee sets in every way." Care to explain a bit further?
And honestly, that whole argument is looking very much like "pay 2 win" which is not somewhere I'd like to see the game going.
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My objection is not that people are right to lodge this complain, only that they will and taking the steps you were advocating in their totality would radically increase the level of these types of complaints. The fact that people are making that complaint now is a fact, the notion that these complaints would increase if the numbers were more closely coupled with the advertising of the set seems difficult to fathom any possible objection to. It seems obviously inevitable. I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. My objection is solely that asserting an *obligation* to release numbers for powersets, and to do so in a way far more extensively than already done for existing sets and in a way coupled with the advertising of the powerset *will* cause people to object when those numbers are changed more strongly than for other powersets and more often than if the numbers were simply released by the same avenues they exist for current powersets: no more, and no less.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
As to the others: Like any real numbers shown, to expect them NOT to change in an MMO is insane, so I don't agree with your objection.
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Are you saying you think that actually won't happen when you say you disagree, or are you saying you think it might happen but you simply don't care if it happens when you say you disagree.
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Agreed.|
Originally Posted by Nuclea
So does that mean that every melee powerset we purchase has to be better than SS?
Also, I'm not quite understanding how "should be in every aspect superior to free powersets, both in in-game effectiveness" goes with "doesn't have to be better than all Melee sets in every way." Care to explain a bit further? And honestly, that whole argument is looking very much like "pay 2 win" which is not somewhere I'd like to see the game going. |
Also wondering how a "not a Powergamer" will only play sets that a powergamer would play.
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Ive already decided what to do, i will write to customer service if they cant or wont help me, Ill just be suspending my account for 3-6 months till I get bored of a shortly coming out game that might include something with a little Force.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Someone is ALWAYS going to be unhappy.
And someone is ALWAYS going to be looking for greener pastures. NCSoft isn't a bank. They don't want to have to do more than have you buy points and then debit them from the system. Trading powers in and out with points is an absolute fuster-cluck waiting to happen. YOU didn't do the due-diligence before buying it. If you're unhappy with it, go look in the mirror. THAT is the person responsible. Feel free to take out your aggressions on them. |
No harm no foul, Ill feel as if I cost them money they would have otherwise gotten, and feel satisfied without any of the fuss.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
Street Justice isn't supposed to be an AOE set maybe?
Champion-
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Glad i don't care about the numbers.. StJ is awesome fun. Points well spent. And for the record my first 50 redside was an EM/EA brute.
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This is a point of contention with a lot of people. But it seems that a lot of people missed this tidbit.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
The set was changed from the time it came off beta but before live, and did not go back on test.
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Originally Posted by Clockwork O1
Just to clarify, nothing has changed on Street Justice since it was removed from beta in late August.
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And Paragon Studios did not fulfill THEIR responsibility for full disclosure for players to actually do their due diligence. It takes two to form a sale, and I'm not willing to put the blame on one party only.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
YOU didn't do the due-diligence before buying it.
If you're unhappy with it, go look in the mirror. THAT is the person responsible. Feel free to take out your aggressions on them. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
My objection is not that people are right to lodge this complain, only that they will and taking the steps you were advocating in their totality would radically increase the level of these types of complaints.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The fact that people are making that complaint now is a fact, the notion that these complaints would increase if the numbers were more closely coupled with the advertising of the set seems difficult to fathom any possible objection to. It seems obviously inevitable.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
My objection is solely that asserting an *obligation* to release numbers for powersets, and to do so in a way far more extensively than already done for existing sets and in a way coupled with the advertising of the powerset *will* cause people to object when those numbers are changed more strongly than for other powersets and more often than if the numbers were simply released by the same avenues they exist for current powersets: no more, and no less.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Are you saying you think that actually won't happen when you say you disagree, or are you saying you think it might happen but you simply don't care if it happens when you say you disagree.
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So is SS actually. If you want a fair comparison, you shouldn't pick the strongest set.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
Lastly, you shouldn't compare any new AoE power to Footstomp. Instead, you should avoid using Footstomp in any comparison. It's an out-lier.
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I'm more mad that I have to buy more points to even get the power set as a VIP accout player I think that is lunacy. So I'll take your refund to buy my SJ power set.....
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Originally Posted by MrBones
I'm glad it's different.
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Originally Posted by ObiWan
Glad i don't care about the numbers.. StJ is awesome fun. Points well spent. And for the record my first 50 redside was an EM/EA brute.
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Lest we forget, people on these boards have been begging for a more "street fighting" martial arts / punch and kick style melee set since the game began. But give people exactly what they want and someone somewhere is going to complain anyway.
Seriously, if you made it hands-down the very best melee set in the game, people would complain. I might be one of them, in fact, because mudflation is generally a bad thing. And I have a theory that you could make a "Thought Melee" set where your character stands there and does nothing, has no animations, and if it did better AoE damage than any other melee set then some people would declare it awesome.
By all means, roll up another super strength brute if AoE damage is the only thing you care about. I'm going to be having fun with my new St.J brute.
Maybe we should start the titan weapon and staff melee complaint threads now? Why wait?
But this thread has been very entertaining at least.
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In light of the problems such an exception would open the floodgates for, YES. It DOES pay them to lose such a customer.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Really, why
Does it pay to loose that customer for the cost of a single purchase? |
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Really I go into walmart and buy a hair dryer and then return it saying it doesnt have enough power, clerk says the watts is right on the box. I say I dont like it, doesnt get my hair dry, I want my money back They will give me my money back even if I was wrong and didnt read the wattage. |
How DO they strip it from your account?
Can/should they bar you from purchasing it again?
How do they refund you?
What happens to toons already created with the power?
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| The customer is not always right, but a business does need to go a little above and beyond to accede to a customer when it costs them more to fight it. |
I'm in game publishing. Someone comes to a con and buys one of my company's sourcebooks on a Thursday.
Sunday, they come around, unhappy with the book and where the material is going. They want a refund.
NO
I used to work at a truck stop. We'd have a trucker buy a tool, use it, and try returning it, obviously used. Sometimes even without the receipt.
You paid to have the option of building a character with StJ.
You got the option.
If you now, no longer LIKE it, that's tough noogies for you.
Also, why act like the devs have never and will never again rework the balance on a power set?
You are not being LOANED access to the powerset.
You're not RENTING access to the power set.
You're PURCHASING access to the power set.
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| Its not worth having me be bitter and leave for a few months for the 10 dollars, even if I dont stay gone forever. |
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| Loosing 10 dollars compared to loosing 45 as I go somewhere else for 3 months because Im feeling ripped off. |
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| Im not saying I will leave forever, but I have left for months when I felt ripped off or even longer, I left for the entire period between i6 and i9 because the game was 10 steps past horrid dreg as ED was in but inventions was not. |
If you are the kind of person who acts like this and tries to get over like this you are NOT the kind of customer Paragon wants.
They might put it to you in slightly more diplomatic language. Or just weasel-word around it. But that's the brass tacks of it right there.
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You are quick to accuse me of misquoting you, so I'll give you an opportunity to reread what I said in its entirety and reconsider. If upon doing so you still want to stick with this statement, I will be compelled to demonstrate this has absolutely no basis in fact.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
My disagreement is that you are advocating that the developers bear no responsibility to inform the players as to what, exactly, they are selling.
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I like EM.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Lets say for example
A top set B good set C middle set D poor set E very poor set So lets say SS is A, Elec is B, StJ is C, Kinetic melee is D, and Em is E I expect Paid sets to be B's. A's gets into pay to win and C's gets mixed in the Bleh. Im not expecting an A, but it needs to be a B which it isnt. My issue was with the numbers which I couldnt see I also dont expect a refund, but I do choose to excercise my right to complain about what I see as a bad performing set that didnt live up to the cost of it. BEam was a very solid B, maybe a B+ |
I don't understand your ranking system.
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I'm just going to give a big "I dissagree heartily with this sentiment".|
Originally Posted by BeyondReach
Powersets that you have to pay for should be in every aspect superior to free powersets, both in in-game effectiveness and other appeal (interesting mechanics, looks good, interesting concept).
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If they want to put out powersets that have gee-whiz effects. Cool. Fine. Great. Wonderful.
I draw the line at the power being "superior" in the mathematical sense. A power here and there in the set can be an outlier. But having the ENTIRE set be an upper-end outlier? NO.
That's selling power at that point. BIG FRICKIN' NO-NO!
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Next time, wait to buy it instead of going "Oh somethign new! I must buy it now!"
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
So I have to say I am extremely disapointed and unhappy with Street Justice .
The set is just plain weak... the aoe's are so small as to be meaningless, and a 5 target limit on one and a 10 on the other. ITs inferior to SS in both single and aoe damage. The set was changed from the time it came off beta but before live, and did not go back on test. This feels rather bait and switch, even though it wasnt nerfed live. To move onto a general point, will we be able to get refunds on sets, powers, etc that we feel disappointed with. There was no way to view the real stats before purchasing, so again I feel this was a somewhat deceptive. I am EXTREMELY unhappy with this. |
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You are making a very very big assumption
That I am the only one who bought the set and is unhappy with it.
I NEVER claimed no one is happy with the set, only that some people are unhappy, since I know at least 5 or 6 who are unhappy that means that I being the only one is not the case. Though I cant prove it without a poll, I would assume many more unhappy with the set.
If they are going to sell powersets, they need to account for the fact that some people, might not like it.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.