Street Justice and general points refunds.
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-10-05 09:31 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Other than digging in your heals, sticking out your lower lip and saying "I WANT" you have yet to give one credible reason why *your* situation should warrant a refund.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Except I said right from the start Im not unhappy enough to do this.
But it is a possible option. Actually I usually just threaten cancellation which I did do, I was upset enough to cancel and put that as a reason. |
"Online play may change" is one of the things you signed off on in the EULA, man.
This isn't that burger joint where you get to have it your way. You should have waited a day to see how the set performed. It's your fault, not theirs. Man up.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
English does not borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sale_of_Goods_Act|
Originally Posted by Lothic
But I'll say it one more time now: Caveat Emptor.
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http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/a...e-business.cfm
Yeah, quite a few countries have moved away from having a Caveat Emptor system when it comes to goods.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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But the underlying principle of having the mature responsibility to stand by your decisions and accept the repercussions of your actions still stands. Isn't that amazing? |
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sale_of_Goods_Act
http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/a...e-business.cfm Yeah, quite a few countries have moved away from having a Caveat Emptor system when it comes to goods. |
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So you're saying it's a fun set with more AoE than Martial Arts, and the AoE caps at the same number as nearly every other AoE, but it's not superior to every other melee set in the game and therefore I should be disappointed?
You do realize I've played four Martial Arts scrappers to 50, yes? 
Anyway whatever happened to "wait a day and see what people report" if you're not sure about spending the points?
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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You're saying its good business to tell all of the players that they can buy anything whenever they want, and at any time for any reason all they have to do is push a button and get their money back?|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
You have pretty much made my point for me.
I loved beam rifle, Im happy with my purchase. I despise StJ I am not happy with my purchase Like it or not, leaving customers unhappy with their purchase with no recourse. ITS NOT GOOD BUSINESS!!! Some people are not going to be happy for whatever reason or no reason. There needs to be an automated refund. |
That's one opinion. Mine is that I would veto that idea by strangling it to death in the first design meeting it came up in.
You say its bad practice to "leave customers unhappy." Is that an actual rule, or just something thought up for this situation? If its a rule, what's the cut off. Do we refund people who decide they are unhappy with the set in the twenties? Forties? How about people who decide they are unhappy with the performance of the set in incarnate trials? If its bad business to leave people unhappy, all these situations should be bad business. Which ones deserve remedy? All of them?
How about if they rebalance the set? Unhappy, so refund? How about if they just make all the other sets better but don't change the set at all? Still unhappy, so refund?
To me, this is extremely impractical. Its sets a dangerous precedent the company can't really follow through on consistently, and inconsistency is worse than doing nothing. Far, far worse.
Now, as to the issue of demanding a refund for a powerset for which you do not have the numbers, if you actually know that this is a position you believe in, you have a personal obligation not to actually *buy* a powerset you don't know the numbers for. And saying you tested it in beta doesn't matter, because all beta testers, among lots of other things, are expected to recognize and understand that everything in beta is subject to change at any time, and subject to change prior to release without warning. If you can't accept or agree to that, you are not supposed to beta test.
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/e SWOON|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
inconsistency is worse than doing nothing
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I really like you. I mean, like like you
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
English does not borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar.
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In the costume creator, you get to preview unpurchased costume pieces, but are unable to complete the transaction until they're unlocked. I think it would go a long way to be able to select the unpurchased power set in character creation but not be able to complete the process in the same fashion. That way you could see the numbers, the animations, and make as fully informed a decision as possible short of playing it for x levels. As was mentioned, test server doesn't necessarily reflect the final product so it doesn't always count as a reliable representation of what it is I'm buying.
I'm still on the fence about dropping the PP for this set.
Consider it further marketing...
I wasn't in Beta testing, I bought the powerset blindly unsure of whether it would be a good set or not, it certain looked cool animation-wise. I'm not overly wowed by Street Justice thus far, but I've only played with it for about an hour. The powerset was just made available on the live servers yesterday, so how about giving it some time before reaching any final conclusions?
As far as refunds go, not going to happen.
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I would prefer if they had a system in place that shows the exact values of what someone is buying, and exact animations and look of what someone is buying if it's cosmetic as opposed to a powerset. THAT part I can agree with.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
I already said Im not upset enough to do the chargeback, but it is an option that some players may take.
Im sure they dont want to be dealing with all that. They need a refund system to deal with unhappy players in their house instead of someone else's. Which has been my point all along |
As long as you can adequately try before you buy, there's really no need for an elaborate refund system IMO.
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/inset black and white pic of applauding man here.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You're saying its good business to tell all of the players that they can buy anything whenever they want, and at any time for any reason all they have to do is push a button and get their money back?
That's one opinion. Mine is that I would veto that idea by strangling it to death in the first design meeting it came up in. You say its bad practice to "leave customers unhappy." Is that an actual rule, or just something thought up for this situation? If its a rule, what's the cut off. Do we refund people who decide they are unhappy with the set in the twenties? Forties? How about people who decide they are unhappy with the performance of the set in incarnate trials? If its bad business to leave people unhappy, all these situations should be bad business. Which ones deserve remedy? All of them? How about if they rebalance the set? Unhappy, so refund? How about if they just make all the other sets better but don't change the set at all? Still unhappy, so refund? To me, this is extremely impractical. Its sets a dangerous precedent the company can't really follow through on consistently, and inconsistency is worse than doing nothing. Far, far worse. Now, as to the issue of demanding a refund for a powerset for which you do not have the numbers, if you actually know that this is a position you believe in, you have a personal obligation not to actually *buy* a powerset you don't know the numbers for. And saying you tested it in beta doesn't matter, because all beta testers, among lots of other things, are expected to recognize and understand that everything in beta is subject to change at any time, and subject to change prior to release without warning. If you can't accept or agree to that, you are not supposed to beta test. |
I will say thought that I think there should be some way to check out a purchase and what it gives you before you buy it.
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Honestly, with a dash of seriousness:
1) I do think that a player should at least be able to select the power in creation, look at the powers... and I'd like to see them allow players to check out the customization options. Just don't let them enter the game until they buy the powerset.
2) I find the notion somewhat... appalling... to think that bought powersets "need" to be one of the very top performers due to the money spent on them. I mean, I'm not worried, because -as much as some adhere to these ideas- there aren't really bad performers in CoH. However, the notion that bought powersets need to be the higher performers is the opposite of what I'd expect. The last thing we want is the top tier performers being locked behind purchased powersets. Certainly not out of a necessary fulfillment. That seems absurd to me.
These games... are about fun. Fun comes in an enormous variety of forms for people with varying tastes and preferences.
If your issues are with the numbers... That was pretty much the one and only issue that you could have made yourself aware of without buying the powerset.
Whether or not you knew about typing the power names in chat... You clearly know about the forums.
Once again... I believe that Paragon Studios should supply all of this information for everyone, preferably through the store/game interface (easily accessible and apparent to all). However, it is not their fault if someone decides to buy things without looking into it.
You make that choice.
Buy what is behind the curtain or don't.
They don't force anyone to buy things.
And you know that there are avenues available for researching aspects of this game.
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Apparently so.
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Originally Posted by EU_Damz
Surely its a "middle of the road" set then?
 Do people expect each set to be vastly superior to every other set when they come out? |
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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This is one of the reasons why I didn't buy Street Justice.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
So I have to say I am extremely disapointed and unhappy with Street Justice.
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I don't think you have anything to worry about there. Much as players may make noise on the subject, so far almost no set we've gotten has been explicitly better than all the others, and I don't think that's about to change.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
I find the notion somewhat... appalling... to think that bought powersets "need" to be one of the very top performers due to the money spent on them. I mean, I'm not worried, because -as much as some adhere to these ideas- there aren't really bad performers in CoH. However, the notion that bought powersets need to be the higher performers is the opposite of what I'd expect. The last thing we want is the top tier performers being locked behind purchased powersets. Certainly not out of a necessary fulfillment. That seems absurd to me.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Per the Ustream:
"Spinning Strike
It's smaller than the Whirling xxxx type powers on purpose to give it more damage. It's also a Targetted AoE rather than a PBAoE."
Lets say for example
A top set
B good set
C middle set
D poor set
E very poor set
So lets say SS is A, Elec is B, StJ is C, Kinetic melee is D, and Em is E
I expect Paid sets to be B's.
A's gets into pay to win and C's gets mixed in the Bleh.
Im not expecting an A, but it needs to be a B which it isnt.
My issue was with the numbers which I couldnt see
I also dont expect a refund, but I do choose to excercise my right to complain about what I see as a bad performing set that didnt live up to the cost of it.
BEam was a very solid B, maybe a B+
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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I don't have any specific issue with that, although I think that its one thing to offer the information, and another to allow players to purchase something and then say that after running some spreadsheets with the numbers they've come to the conclusion the set is not as good as they thought it was and want a refund.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I will say thought that I think there should be some way to check out a purchase and what it gives you before you buy it.
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I would sooner yank all real numbers from the game than accede to that. It, and problems like it, were the one dark side to adding real numbers to the game in the first place, and I said so from before real numbers were even added to the game.
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I think people had a similar misconception when Kheldians were first introduced to the game. Many people were upset with Khledians because I think they hyped themselves into believing that any "epic ATs" unlocked at level 50 (at the time) must mean that they had to be godlike Tankmages that could kill anything with an "I win" button". They couldn't get over the fact that they were never meant to be overpowered killing machines. They were simply meant to unique ATs that served as an award for leveling another character to 50.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
I find the notion somewhat... appalling... to think that bought powersets "need" to be one of the very top performers due to the money spent on them. I mean, I'm not worried, because -as much as some adhere to these ideas- there aren't really bad performers in CoH. However, the notion that bought powersets need to be the higher performers is the opposite of what I'd expect. The last thing we want is the top tier performers being locked behind purchased powersets. Certainly not out of a necessary fulfillment. That seems absurd to me.
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In the same vein I don't think they'll ever make powersets bought in the Paragon Market more or less powerful than any other DESPITE people's false hopes to the contrary.
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I'm glad it's different.
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The overall quality of a set is subjective.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Lets say for example
Im not expecting an A, but it needs to be a B which it isnt. |
Therefore, a cash value cannot be placed on the quality of a set relative to any other set.
Now if you want them to charge per DPS or something, that would be different.
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If a player can make the case, after analyzing the real numbers, that there's a quantifiable problem with a powerset then at least that player may be deemed to have a "legitimate" reason for a refund. Of course at that point the player may be more in-line to receive a Bug Hunter badge for their efforts rather than getting a few dollars back. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I don't have any specific issue with that, although I think that its one thing to offer the information, and another to allow players to purchase something and then say that after running some spreadsheets with the numbers they've come to the conclusion the set is not as good as they thought it was and want a refund.
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But really, the margin of difference in your scale is pretty small.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Lets say for example
A top set B good set C middle set D poor set E very poor set So lets say SS is A, Elec is B, StJ is C, Kinetic melee is D, and Em is E I expect Paid sets to be B's. A's gets into pay to win and C's gets mixed in the Bleh. Im not expecting an A, but it needs to be a B which it isnt. My issue was with the numbers which I couldnt see |
And what factors go into it? Just DPS? Which AT(s)?
Pretty Sure Dark is right up there and not mentioned... Oh, wait, AOE was the problem... but they can't all have AOE... balanced with ST level, rech, end,... never mentioned.
Not to mention that KM isn't a poor set at all in my experience...
And if they start making paid sets always A or B on this - biased - scale, then I think the revolt would be far worse than a handful of people demanding a refund.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
I also dont expect a refund, but I do choose to excercise my right to complain about what I see as a bad performing set that didnt live up to the cost of it.
BEam was a very solid B, maybe a B+ |
It's funny because I would have just said "yes, you did" and been all indignant, because your message seemed so clear.
But I went back and read this thread again, and unless I missed it you never actually asked for your money back. You say this alot, though:
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Not everyone is going to be happy with a purchase, they need to put a refund system or be bombarded by these kinds of posts every time they put out a paid set that isnt near the top.
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While I agree with this, the developers do have the responsibility to do the following for this and any other power set that has to be purchased:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Now, as to the issue of demanding a refund for a powerset for which you do not have the numbers, if you actually know that this is a position you believe in, you have a personal obligation not to actually *buy* a powerset you don't know the numbers for.
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- Post the "preview" aka Intrepid Informer at least a week before it is released in the Paragon Market.
- Give full (and I mean FULL) statistics on the power in game, on the forums, and on the website when it becomes available on the Paragon Market.
- Show the animations/information in the character creator BEFORE purchase.
- At least a 1-2 week Test Server "preview" of the power set for players test the power set. It wasn't really available for open Beta to try it before it was yanked from the open beta.
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Then it's you own damn fault for buying it on day one before you knew what the numbers were. Had you waited just a single day you could have checked them in Mids. You really need to try taking some responsibility for your actions.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
My issue was with the numbers which I couldnt see
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That said, I agree that there needs to be better information given in game about powersets and cosmetic items before people buy them. I posted as much on the beta forums and in the teaser thread Zwil posted on Monday and I still find it bizarre that you can't preview these things before shelling out for them. It's one of the (very) few areas where the competition is superior.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't think you have anything to worry about there. Much as players may make noise on the subject, so far almost no set we've gotten has been explicitly better than all the others, and I don't think that's about to change.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I think people had a similar misconception when Kheldians were first introduced to the game. Many people were upset with Khledians because I think they hyped themselves into believing that any "epic ATs" unlocked at level 50 (at the time) must mean that they had to be godlike Tankmages that could kill anything with an "I win" button". They couldn't get over the fact that they were never meant to be overpowered killing machines. They were simply meant to unique ATs that served as an award for leveling another character to 50.
In the same vein I don't think they'll ever make powersets bought in the Paragon Market more or less powerful than any other DESPITE people's false hopes to the contrary. |
I just find the notion, from a customer, to be... I can't find the right word. "Appalling" felt way too strong, but... perhaps "unsettling", hehe.
What Shubbie is saying is entirely from the realm of numbers. It is each and everyone's distinct freedom to attach themselves to whatever aspects of enjoyment they wish... but this game provides far more aspects of enjoyment than straight up numbers, hehe... And the Paragon Studio team always seems to work from that understanding. So, again... I'm not worried about it happening...
I am a bit worried about the men and women that I share this planet with though...
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Which has been my point all along
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