Street Justice and general points refunds.

I saw a signature on these forums which sums up my feelings on the matter:

"The more people I meet, the more I find myself rooting for the zombies."

I want Shadow Maul (aka Sands of Mu, considered one of the better/best melee powers in the game) buffed this way too then

As far as I know, nothing purchasable by Paragon Points is transferable off your account.
Paypal is the only case I know of (for sure) that an account closed due to chargeback has ever been re-opened.I know we've rooted for people that, for various reasons, have had chargebacks initiated against their sub without meaning to (mistaking the charge for another company; spouse not realizing who NCSoft is), but I don't know if any of them ever got their accounts unlocked

And looking at those links to UK law... I see at best a 50/50 chance it would support a refund in this (if said laws applied) especially as you don't buy anything other than access (technically), but I could be wrong.

Tried going on test, but there is, apparently no account server there or it's down right now so couldn't check how the market acts on Test.

I think all of these are fine suggestions and ought to be things the Devs of this game strive for. I would simply fall a bit short in fully agreeing with you that these things are strict "responsibilities" on their part. After all even if they "fully disclosed" everything as you describe they may have to make a last minute change to something and still piss people off. Their EULA is written to cover them for just these kinds of situations.

I feel it's a mistake to assume the average player of this game has no responsibility to accept the consequences of his/her purchases. Players should at least come part way with being knowledgeable on their own about what they are buying. The Devs can't hand-hold us for everything.

Unless they just run every sold powerset through Shubbie first.
Hehe, seriously though, what you said in those few words was exactly what I was getting at within a previous ramble of mine!



ALSO:
Here's a thread someone else started the other day about allowing us to see the powers' info and animations in the character creator before buying them. Why not go and reply with your opinions!

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

I cannot agree. Saying *by rule* the devs must release all numerical powerset information to the players prior to the set being offered for sale implies strongly that the players are actually paying for *those numbers* which then opens the door to players demanding refunds if the powerset is changed from those numbers in any way they find disagreeable. I would strongly recommend Paragon Studios not open that pandora's box.

Its one thing for the numbers to just happen to be available, just like all other powersets are, with the same understanding they are subject to change just like all other numbers are. Like oh say in the character creator screen, perhaps. But once you say its an obligation to release numbers, and you set up a specific system for releasing those numbers that goes beyond what the game automatically allows for all other powers, you cross the line into territory that frankly I would prefer not have to witness the fallout of.


No MMO player has the right to expect that any specific element of the game will not change, particularly powers. If you can't handle that at all, you shouldn't play MMOs. If you can handle that in theory, but not for powersets you purchase separately, you shouldn't purchase powersets. Anything else is impractical.

would it be fair to say the tl;dr version is "Nerfs/buffs happen"?

Yup, I tried to check out StJ on Beta when I had the time in my schedule, but I'm a Mac user so I got bent over. It's for this reason I decided to pass on spending 800 points on something I might not like. I'm going to horde my points for Staff fighting and/or Titan weapons and cross my fingers that Mac users won't get shafted in beta when those come out.

A customer who is wrong, shouldn't GET a refund.

I am waiting for people's reviews of powersets plus a couple weeks of potential live tweaking before I buy them.

Besides after the initial rush they could go on sale in a few months.

According to staff...

I didn't say the player has no responsibilities. They do. They need to do their research before buying. However they can't be expected to do research when there is little to no information given. So some players are telling others "buyer beware", except that they couldn't reasonably expect to be informed of the problems before purchase. It falls on the seller to properly inform the buyer what they are buying. Paragon Studios failed at this. They will likely fail again. The whole market is the same piece of dung: they don't have proper descriptions, they don't show proper stats, they don't even show what you have bought. For the year+ that they have been working on it, the market is the worst checkout I've ever seen, including several student projects.

No information was given before it started to be sold on the market. The Intrepid informer telling which ATs get what powers came a DAY AFTER it started selling. At that point, it isn't really acceptable to place the blame solely on the player.

That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that the developers should be obligated to provide an adequate preview to all customers prior to purchase, the developers should be obligated to provide a full disclosure of what is included in the purchase prior to the player buying the item in question, and the developers should be obligated to do so in-game before purchase. Likewise, the player should be obligated to do proper research on if the power is appropriate for them. If it isn't they shouldn't buy it.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

I didn't say that is what you were saying or advocating, I said specifically that in my opinion is the natural consequence of doing the specifics of what you're advocating, whether you specifically want it to happen or not, and that side effect makes some of your proposals unpalatable.

Really, why

Does it pay to loose that customer for the cost of a single purchase?

Really

I go into walmart and buy a hair dryer and then return it saying it doesnt have enough power, clerk says the watts is right on the box.

I say I dont like it, doesnt get my hair dry, I want my money back

They will give me my money back even if I was wrong and didnt read the wattage.

The customer is not always right, but a business does need to go a little above and beyond to accede to a customer when it costs them more to fight it.

Its not worth having me be bitter and leave for a few months for the 10 dollars, even if I dont stay gone forever.

Loosing 10 dollars compared to loosing 45 as I go somewhere else for 3 months because Im feeling ripped off.

Im not saying I will leave forever, but I have left for months when I felt ripped off or even longer, I left for the entire period between i6 and i9 because the game was 10 steps past horrid dreg as ED was in but inventions was not.

Why are you assuming that customer service wouldn't help you out?

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

I agree with this. This is a 'purchase' item, vice a 'you get it with all the other stuff in the next Issue for free' item.

Today, people read labels on foods to see what calories, sugars, etc are in them, and make informed decisions on their products (ok, not me in particular, but you get the point). With the economy the way it is, it should be the same with purchasable items in the Paragon Market.

The item descriptions for most items in the market, thusfar to me, have been thin to non-existent. For me, a key example was the Barbarian costume set. I had to dig around the forums to find images of what they're supposed to look like, and a list of what was actually in the set. With work and family being what it is, I don't have the time to go digging and hunting through UStream videos and the such for the info. This info should have been an up-front feature (i.e. click-to-access info) for those wanting to purchase these items. A link to a specific web section that shows ALL of the purchasable items and a bulletized/detailed listing of what you get for purchasing said item. I'm seeing this slowly getting remedied of late.

For power sets, Snow Globe's post seems a great way of covering the bases for this. Granted, it's a lot of work for Paragon Studios in regards to Sales dep't, website managers, test server item scheduling, and potentially product preview movies/animation, but they are the ones that started this system and the purchasers/potential purchasers are not obviously 100% happy with their system.

If they want to do this microtransaction gig, they need to do it right to get more customer interest and trust. Hiding or providing a lack of details of a purchasable product is equal to a used car salesman's technique, whether if it's intentional or not.

When one has to say 'caveat emptor' to others regarding a company's products, that's not a good sign of the company's salesmanship or products.

As to OP's original post, your refund question belongs in a PM or email to Paragon Studios or NC Soft or discuss with customer services for resolution. There is little the forumites can do to resolve your situation, other than speculate and postulate.

Actually im not, I just wanted to have the discussion first about what this means.

Its about street justice at the moment.

But this needs to be hashed out if they are going to continue to sell powers.

Its not like a costume set.... yeah that loincloth didnt look as good in game as the character creator...

Its not the same

Though honestly I didnt come up with the discussion or argument until I actually hit a powerset I didnt like, so I didnt bring this up for beam rifle.

The Intrepid Informer was written during closed beta, why the heck wasn't it made available prior to it going on sale?
As to the others: Like any real numbers shown, to expect them NOT to change in an MMO is insane, so I don't agree with your objection. At the very minimum, they need to have a preview before buying. The Beta and Test Servers seem to be ideally suited for this, as they are not connected to the billing server.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Having read your posts for years and having done my fair share of work in retail, I can say without hesitation you are emblematic of the type of customer I would go to great lengths to lose.

OOh personal insults... how very enlightening.

*snort*

Monumental day.

Once again I am agreeing with Venture.

I'm beginning to feel sick just typing that sentence.

Then again, I begin to remember why some people used to be on my ignore list before I decided to be charitable and wipe the slate clean.

*snarf*