Street Justice and general points refunds.

Happily, StJ is superior to many free powersets. For instance, the animations are subjectively the best of all the melee powersets. The names of the attacks are superior to many other powersets. The combo mechanic is superior to many other gimmicks. It's better than MA for AoE. It's better than Spines for ST. It's better than Kinetic Melee for not sounding like a racecar.

All in all, for the variables I am concerned about, StJ is at least on par and often superior to many other options, including free powersets.
Ahh, now I get it. You think that it should be better than everything else, in all areas. Faster animations, more damage, lower end costs, the works. To this, I say thee, nay.

I...

I want this set...

Actually want access to "No FX" psychic powers, that'd be fun.

No, they are not "responsible" for providing anything of the sort any more than they have been responsible for providing power numbers to people who have not purchased the game prior to Freedom. Allowing us to see power numbers would be good business, but NOT providing them is neither criminal nor unjust. It simply asks players to look for these numbers on their own, and these numbers are not that hard to find.

Furthermore, providing numbers does nothing for people who can't do the math, so it would be logical to request that it is the development team's "responsibility" to provide comprehensive numbers breakdowns for people who aren't well-versed in basic statistics.

Seriously, what is it with all the Icedrones on the forums of late?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

How so? The revised StJ is available to test right now. It's been reported here in the forums.

When, in the past, have they come out with a powerset where they sat down and straight out gave you the spreadsheet of numbers at the time of purchase?

Dual Pistols?
Electric Control?


Venues for obtaining the information are already in place. This is a failure of the customer's portion of due diligence.

If you buy a car, then, 50,000 miles later find out that the turn-signal flasher is located in a place that necessitates disassembly of the dashboard (incurring large labor costs), you can't return the car.


Now please understand. I'm not saying that Paragon couldn't, or shouldn't make the raw numbers on such sets (and not just the graphical appeal) available to people beforehand in a human-readable format. I'm simply saying they haven't done so in the past.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

Just want to reiterate that Clockwork 01 today said that Street Justice has not been changed since it's removal from beta in August.

In regards to the text I bolded and enlarged the font for I have two things to say.

No. Not correct in the slightest.

While you're absolutely correct, please examine the quotes from Shubbie & NT. Hopefully I haven't misunderstood some humor on your part.

Okay, you are saying that providing the real numbers before sale is a bad idea because it would cause more complaints when the powers are changed, right?

Do you agree or disagree with this statement:

"The developers, when they have asked subscribers to purchase a power set, have asked more from players should be held more accountable to provide more information in a timely manner than with powers that are included with a subscription."

It is a fairly simple question. They want to charge for a power set, so they should have to provide more information in a timely manner. If you agree with the statement, how are they to provide that information in a timely manner to the players? If you disagree with the statement, how do you answer the complaints that the developers are not forthcoming with information that helps players make an informed decision?

Criminal? Please show me one instance in this thread other than this reply where I mention "criminal".

If the numbers are not provided, how are the players supposed to "look for these on their own?" Circular arguments are circular.

They've had that Intrepid Informer typed up for at least a month and a half, if not 3-4 months. I doubt anyone can claim that they could not have provided that information at an earlier time than a day AFTER it being put up for sale.

Player reported, not official channels and not in game before purchase. If it is on the test server, then that is ok for low levels, but doesn't show what would happen at higher levels unless a player is willing to spend a lot of time on a throw-away character.

When, before Issue 21, have they charged $10 for a single power set?

They had a beta test for a week before the Going Rogue Pre-sale where players could test Dual Pistols before release.

Open beta for around 3 weeks before Going Rogue went live.

Both:
Under $10 combined when the full powers & content were $29.99.

The only official venues for the information are the test server and official announcements.

That is no excuse for them to not release that information in the future. There is also no excuse for holding that Intrepid Informer till the day after it goes on the market.

So what? A lot of players could not access the Beta Server before Street Justice was pulled from the Beta.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Disagree.

Its not the developers' fault if the buyer was impatient and made an impulse buy before more information was provided. In fact, the fact that said buyer made the purchase without even having that information would lead one to believe they were ever interested in making an informed decision to begin with.

Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader

Entropy Legion * Hyperion Force * Hero Heights

I never said you did, as the post I quoted didn't say that. But others have said this in the buildup to Freedom.

The numbers can be obtained by calling out the power names in-game. If one needs to know the power names, ParagonWiki - which shows up in loading tips - has them. I don't know if Mids' or City of Data have them yet, but they will. Failing that, on these very forums are people who WILL supply power numbers if you ask them to.

It's only a circular argument if believe the character creator to be the only source of City of Heroes numbers on the Internet, and it isn't by far. It isn't even the only source of numbers within the actual game.

What are the developers supposed to show you that lets you know how a powerset performs at high levels BUT its numbers? And those are available to ALL players with the only requirement being knowing what the powers are called, which is trivial to find out. Are you perhaps suggesting that the developers give players level bumps on test as a means to provide information? Because this won't happen, nor should it ever, not outside of a larger test with more productive goals.

Does it matter if they charge for one powerset or four? Does it matter if they charge for a powerset and a zone? You still don't know what you're buying until you buy it.

Which was to test that the set is working, not to give players "infromation."

So says you. Far as I'm concerned, the forums are perfectly official. Furthermore, since ParagonWiki is showing up on loading tips, that should be considered a go-to source for information, as well. It's not official, but it's accurate.

They don't need an excuse, because they don't owe you an early look. If you don't feel informed enough to make a purchase, then don't make that purchase.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I would like to point out that any player in the EU can claim a refund within seven days of purchase. By law.

So you are saying that Paragon Studios has no ethical responsibility to inform players what they are buying? I think that could be challenged in the courts or under any number of consumer protection acts.

I'm not talking about the original poster though. Yes, the original poster is at fault for not waiting for more information. However, it IS ALSO the developer's fault for not providing the information in a timely manner.

Both the original poster and the developers are at fault.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

ALL melee AoEs follow this rule.


MOST melee AoEs follow this rule, although there are some outliers.


This is just NOT TRUE. Furthermore, Foot Stomp's 10-target limit is well-known AND easily researched! Take more pride in your work and TRY to know what you're talking about.

Knockout Blow is an outlier to balance the rest of the set. Many melee sets have no single power with its damage number, but te sets as a whole are regarded as strong.

Just pointing out inaccuracies. As I tend to do at times. Especially when it's an inaccuracy being repeated by several people. Especially when I have a Dev quote available to back up what I'm saying.

Your quote didn't enlarge the text as my quote did, so looking at it that way it's losing the context.

Could I have trimmed out the rest of NT's post and left only that sentence? Sure.

But I liked leaving the rest of the quote there since it had so much win in how it was worded.

It would have worked so much better if NT had corrected that line to say:

The set wasn't changed from the time it came off beta but before live, and did not go back on test.

I would like to point out that throwing a hissy fit and ranting on the forums is not how any player can claim a refund.

The problem is does he have any other recourse? Paragon claim by their EULA they don't have to give a refund (Much like shops will try, until you mention the law) if they don't come out with a way to preview a powerset before purchase, they will get a lot more of these threads.

Why SHOULD it somehow be equal, or better than SS when it comes to damage? SS its general accepted as one of the best all round sets, especially for damage with Rage. Just not sure if the comparison with SS is a reason to cry foul. Hey, dark melee has inferior aoe to ss..fix it now? Come on.

Mine you, I didnt play the set on test, so maybe you are right in saying it has been nerfed for Live. However..I do not play a new set expecting it is just gonna be better than everything else. The animations of SJ alone sold me. If your not having fun with the set..dont play it.

No, I said, and its sufficiently self explanatory I can simply requote:

Its perfectly acceptable to disclose the details of the powerset in the same manner the numbers are disclosed for all sets. Going farther than that is going too far.


Given the specific words "more information", the answer is no, I don't agree. I agree the disclosure should be timely. I disagree there's any special requirement on the release of the numbers beyond that.

Moreover, the implication of being "more accountable" suggests that players can assume they are buying those numbers, and therefore they have a right to insist that what they buy actually *be* those numbers. Its meaningless to say that the numbers will be that upon sale, but may change five seconds after that. The numbers are there, and should be there, solely as an optional information source that describes the set without promising performance of a set. If you make a buying decision based solely on those numbers, the devs are free to change then two seconds after you buy the set, or for that matter while you're buying the set. The devs are not financially guaranteeing any of those numbers. There is therefore no logic to purchasing a powerset based primarily *on* those numbers.

The devs are only accountable to the powerset numbers for purchased powersets as they are for all other powersets. Players should not be given the false impression that because they are purchasing unlocks for those powersets, they are in some way special when it comes to how powersets are managed in the future. I'm saying to the players don't presume that, and I'm saying to the developers if you can't follow this rule, then you're in effect selling improper power through the store by granting exemptions to the normal powerset management process, and you should stop selling powersets altogether.

You're supposed to sell your work, not your design soul. You don't get to buy it back.

If you feel that strongly, then go ahead. Lawyer up and file a suit. Nobody here's stopping you.

Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader

Entropy Legion * Hyperion Force * Hero Heights

I live in an EU country and there's no such law here. There never has been. What country is this that this exists? Because "the EU" is not a country, nor an authority with law-making rights over sovereign states.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.