Villians how to fix redside
By
Aisynia,
Posted on: 2011-09-03 11:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Compared to heroside equivalents, the villain SFs are way less tedious and sometimes shorter than the heroside.
Compare Virgil's SF to the original Positron or Synapse. There have been times on a Synapse that I've actively thought about quitting the game right there and leaving my friends in the lurch. Virgil is 6 relatively easy missions, some of them ghostable.
With Strike Targets, groups of players on most servers seem to have their gameplans down for how to ghost/rush a TF to the fullest. I know I was leading teams where we were doing half hour Manticores. But compare that to the flipside: during the respec trial ST weeks, people were pulling down 13 minute treespecs compared to heroes left running around circles for an hour in the Reactor for their Trial to end.
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The problem is your perception. I Like the redside and hate blue side.
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I think its many people perception|
Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
The problem is your perception. I Like the redside and hate blue side.
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Because whats the population now, 3 to 1, 4 to 1, Blue to red?
Rogues are red, vigilantes are blue...I should make a joke here, but cant think of one.
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I much prefer Red side. More streamlined design; way fewer useless/extra zones and a bit better writing in some missions.
Unfortunately someone thought all zones should be similar in look. Slums or Arachnos superstructures (for the most part). Most CoX zones suffer from poor design and some just look ridiculous. CoV should have been a better mix of slums, regular city, Arachnos etc. I think they also are correcting their problem where new villains were associated with Arachnos or 'Destined Ones'.
The SFs are decent but not that stellar. They really need to think twice about designing TFs/SFs in this game. SO many are not fun to play. Story writing will never trump game play and visuals in a game.
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Mortimer Kal.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
So lets talk about redside, we have some major problems here, because of the way the game has been over the last few years, redside has undergone some major decrease is players.
... SF's MUCH less rewarding for the time that hero Tf, and less of them. A good example of this is the Renault and moonfire TF's. Renault not only takes longer but rewards less... Why is this and its not just this TF, another good example is september strike targets Renault comes up again and ice mistral twice.... This one is somewhat fixable, they arent going to add any new villian Sf's as long as the player count is low |
Technically, the Apex and Tin Mage TFs are villain-playable as well.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
I think its many people perception
Because whats the population now, 3 to 1, 4 to 1, Blue to red? |
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I'm not sure there is a problem, technically. In any situation with multiple options presented to a large group of people, some are going to be less popular than others. That's just the way the ball bounces.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
So where is the problem and what can be fixed?
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"Fixing" redside would mean almost completely gutting it, IMHO. Why?
1. Looks dingy and depressing. Unless you're on Metal Fort Built On dingy and Depressing. Or Something with Neon Built on Dingy and Depressing.
Seriously - I get having *some* areas like that, sure. But everything? Blah. And some just don't make sense. St. Martial - the casino area, where you'd imagine they'd want to keep tourism going and keep it nice and shiny has roads that end in gigantic potholes or just fall apart... and the "strip," as it were, is just a couple buildings long. It's not even a *half*hearted effort.
2. No variety.
C'mon, name the contacts... because you see them *every single time.* See also "Recipe for fast burnout." The unlockables, I assume, were an attempt to give some variety, but - yeah, who remembers most of them before they're outlevelled?
3. Too few zones.
Yeah, talk about "streamlined" all you want, but at least blueside I have multiple paths with multiple sets of contacts and a different experience, not just in contacts but in environment. It keeps things fresh.
4. Not villainous.
Most of the contacts are written as "Hey, dupe, c'mere and do this" with you as a thug, with... what, two? doing "I'm EEEEEEEVIL and disgustingly so!" No inbetween, and until recently, almost nothing that makes it feel like you're doing these because it's YOUR plan and YOUR idea. Heroside, at least, they're asking for help, you're "investigating" and whatnot. Though that is easier to write for.
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The reactor is mildly annoying, but I've never been on a successful "treespec." After several horrible failures, I stopped joining them altogether. I assumed that all villain TFs would be similarly more annoying than the hero's (which already tend to be more trouble than they're worth in my experience) and avoided all other redside TFs while I was playing there.|
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
people were pulling down 13 minute treespecs compared to heroes left running around circles for an hour in the Reactor for their Trial to end.
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Right now I'm looking forward to I21 which will allow me to avoid Red and Yellow zones altogether (though I may make a trip to First Ward from time to time) as a matter of course.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
The weird problem Freedom will have is the first 10 levels of so will feel ultra-villainous and then you are back to feeling like just a lackey for Arachnos doing the same kind of missions you would have blueside except in dirtier warehouses.
As for contacts/rewards, I think redside actually wins out over blueside in most regards. Story arcs redside tend to be short, to the point, and always end with something significant (a custom map, an EB/AV/Hero battle, etc). Blueside, if you are attempting any story arc outside of Faultline or Croatoa, you are most likely going to be stuck in a seemingless endless chain of office maps searching for bombs to defuse.
Faultline and the new story arcs that they have added since the birth of CoV have helped break that up for blueside, but redside have gotten equivalent arcs themselves.
And since most story arcs are shorter and most contacts give you more than 1, that means more end of arc XP and rewards then blueside. Blueside may have better reward merit tables, but that's to offset the amount of time it takes to do said arcs. In the Isles, all missions tend to be either close by the contact or they send you to the Thorn Tree Island. You get the missions quicker, you get to the missions quicker, and you complete the missions faster for faster arc reward bonuses.
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/this|
Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
The problem is your perception. I Like the redside and hate blue side.
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i despise playing blueside, as soon as GR came out the first thing i did was make all heroes i had into full villains
the blue zones IMO are awful, they are massive and travel times are much longer than anywhere redside, the zones are too bright for me, i prefer the darkness of redside, the blue tfs are immensely more boring than redside ones (although i would prefer more redside sf's and GMs)
the upcoming changes to mercy story arcs in i21 are fantastic, makes me feel more like a villain than the old content did
I guess Im part of the minority that plays both sides? I get bored with one and then switch to the other for 3-6 months at a time.
Ive noticed in the past when this issue has come up that it sounds like many people commenting must be very "Roleplayerish" in their view? With the comments about redside looking dingy, depressing, too gloomy etc...I guess I've noticed this but it never impacted me running my toons from one mish to another or one zone to another.
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I agree. Blue side is so gray... zzzzz|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
/this
i despise playing blueside, as soon as GR came out the first thing i did was make all heroes i had into full villains the blue zones IMO are awful, they are massive and travel times are much longer than anywhere redside, the zones are too bright for me, i prefer the darkness of redside, the blue tfs are immensely more boring than redside ones (although i would prefer more redside sf's and GMs) the upcoming changes to mercy story arcs in i21 are fantastic, makes me feel more like a villain than the old content did |
Surprisingly, if you will just stop and look around anywhere red side, it has more depth. The details and story behind the Isles. I like that Rogue Isles has fewer zones, less confusing and easy travel. I think I only have 1 hero, and never logged it in. The only blue zone I like is Croatoa, which should be a co-op zone.
Edit: May I add that, how the lighting in red side is what makes people hate it. It has nothing to do with the design. It's not perfect but it's better than blue side... For me anyway.
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Pretty much this. I can't stand blue side at all. I love red's zones/sfs/contacts a lot more, and about 90-95% of my characters are at least Vigilante (mainly Vil/Rogue).
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
/this
i despise playing blueside, as soon as GR came out the first thing i did was make all heroes i had into full villains the blue zones IMO are awful, they are massive and travel times are much longer than anywhere redside, the zones are too bright for me, i prefer the darkness of redside, the blue tfs are immensely more boring than redside ones (although i would prefer more redside sf's and GMs) the upcoming changes to mercy story arcs in i21 are fantastic, makes me feel more like a villain than the old content did |
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Except for Willy Wheeler. For him there should be one more contact with him, where you have a sort of 'morality choice' between finking him to Arachnos and getting a reward for turning him over, after which he's hauled away and disappears from the game for you a la the goldside contacts (a lovely opportunity for a cutscene there), or blackmailing him and getting some minor one-shot or ongoing reward for not turning him in -- for example, a medium inspiration once per day or a tailor ticket for a costume change or a couple of invention discount coupons.
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Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
As for contacts/rewards, I think redside actually wins out over blueside in most regards. Story arcs redside tend to be short, to the point, and always end with something significant (a custom map, an EB/AV/Hero battle, etc).
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Taser speaks true words. Mark me down for what he said.
The only thing I'll add is that for every person I've heard complain about redside being dingy, I've heard someone complain about blue side looking too sterile and identical. Never made sense to me to have vast stretches of clean super city, yet they're still flooded with active criminals acting criminally. At least Red Side the arrangements tend to make sense, and you even see rival groups fighting each other or staking out turf as opposed to simply standing around most places.
I think my biggest disappointment with Red Side is they didn't do enough. Between huge budget cutbacks and lay offs, and caving into the hero player whining that happens whenever something villain centric is added without anything equivalent for heroes, they fell short on the comfortable amount of content needed to feel like the area is fully fleshed out. If we didn't have to settle for the same WST on red side twice this month (not to mention one we have this month we had last month too), I'd be pretty much completely at peace with the way Red Side differs.
In the perfect world inside my head, they'd announce they're revamping Boomtown. Release screenshots and a teaser video. Then a week or two later let out that the bulk of the content will be villain centric, due to the mutual cooperation treaty Vanguard and Longbow made with Arachnos to deal with the Coming Storm.
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The zones redside are every bit as diverse as blueside. Probably more diverse, in fact. People (especially those with little redside experience) get the idea that the whole place is a dump. But if you take the time to actually explore all the redside zones, you'll see a lot of diversity. Everything from the seemingly ubiquitous slums and Arachnos forts to forests, vast stretches of water, the Isles' equivalent of Las Vegas (blueside has nothing like it), blueside-style cityscapes, CoT Thorntree strongholds, old graveyards, you name it. It's anything but one big Arachnos fort surrounded by slums.
Heck even Mercy city itself is a pretty decent looking city, with lots more character than you tend to see blueside.
Personally, I like it. I play both redside and blue (the silent majority spends at least some time in both sides, I'll willing to bet) but I roll mostly Villains and spend most of my time redside. It's what brought me into the game, after all.
P.S. Grandville gets a lot of hate, but just look at that central tower and steel webbing! Blueside has nothing that cool.
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Agreed, although the Atlas Park revamp is a step in the right direction.|
Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
The problem is your perception. I Like the redside and hate blue side.
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
I think its many people perception
Because whats the population now, 3 to 1, 4 to 1, Blue to red? Rogues are red, vigilantes are blue...I should make a joke here, but cant think of one. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
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The problem was starting in Fort Darwin. Freedom sees to that.
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You said it, now you can't unsay it!|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Taser speaks true words. Mark me down for what he said.
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Let me also add: mayhem missions are a heck of a lot easier than safeguards in terms of racking up XP and additional time.
I do wish there would be more villain side SFs, as this was a complaint from me way back when CoV was still in beta and I was PMing Lord Recluse about them back and forth on a daily basis. I really do get the feeling that they had more planned, but when the original design changed (from choosing to join a fraction to only joining Arachnos) they kind of scrapped a lot of content.
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King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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Does it matter? If a red name came in and confirmed that villain population was significantly lower, would it really make a difference? Chances are that the side who likes it the way it is would still insist that it's fine the way it is. Suddenly it would be *better* to have a lower population, and someone would inevitably link an essay, study, or statistics that show people tend to prefer to play heroes so a lower redside population is inevitable.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Where are your facts and proof, please? Other than your opinion.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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No, it's the design too. The lighting has nothing to do with the crap in the streets or the broken down roads, or the "Hey, be a thug, not a villain" contacts.
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Originally Posted by Antoinette
Edit: May I add that, how the lighting in red side is what makes people hate it. It has nothing to do with the design. It's not perfect but it's better than blue side... For me anyway. |
IMO:
--Variety of contacts with a distinctive tree for each origin.
--A new zone or two that is medium sized and has a themed origin(Not CoOp but villain only)
--New Strike Forces (Hopefully they award artifacts like The Flames of Prometheus)
--New things to do in the zones we already have
--Diversity of structures in the zone
--An unlockable contact system that streamlines with the way you get these badges. There are times that I have gotten the badges waaaay after I can or want to run their missions.
I have to say that I love redside far more than I could stomach being a hero. With Freedom, we need Villainy to make its mark on the game and transition from the "Thugging it" mentality.
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I hope you're not trying to say that the blue and red sides have an evenly matched population level |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Where are your facts and proof, please? Other than your opinion.
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So lets talk about redside, we have some major problems here, because of the way the game has been over the last few years, redside has undergone some major decrease is players. And I feel its going to get worse with i21 when you can start directly blue for villian At's.
So where is the problem and what can be fixed?
Low player count, nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd. This one is hard to fix directly.
SF's MUCH less rewarding for the time that hero Tf, and less of them. A good example of this is the Renault and moonfire TF's. Renault not only takes longer but rewards less... Why is this and its not just this TF, another good example is september strike targets Renault comes up again and ice mistral twice.... This one is somewhat fixable, they arent going to add any new villian Sf's as long as the player count is low, but they can double the merit rewards for all villain SF's. Yes you heard me right, double, Villains bailed because of poor rewards and less content, this is a bribe pure and simple, but its payback for years of being underpayed for SF's.
Villian zones stink, they look horrible, they are harder to navigate, and there are less of them. Mercy is getting revamped, but its still a worse zone than the new atlas park, this one cant be fixed as far as I can see.
Im not sure what other factors contributed to the problem, but it is a problem and needs to be fixed, before the few players left redside bail and it becomes a complete ghost town.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.