Villians how to fix redside
By
Aisynia,
Posted on: 2011-09-03 11:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Yes, that's still called 'Unlockable'.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Because it 'forces you' to do other content (on an alt, no less) to access more content.
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'Forced' is the respec that VEATs have to take at level 24. There is no choice in the matter; they ARE taking that respec.
For Unlockable, see every badge-related weapon option, and every contact unlocked by badges, especially red-side.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Hey, by that logic we should assume everyone who plays exclusively Blueside is exactly like Smileytroll.|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
What a fine example of humanity you're being here.
Though the attitude in your post does remind me of one of the OTHER reasons I rarely play redside, besides all the others listed here (no variety low level, depressing, trashy look, etc.) Unfortunately, it's not one the devs can program away. Redside seems to give some players the impression they have free rein to be complete jerks to others. |
Don't lump everyone else in with the bad-mouthed garbage
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Did I say everyone was? No. I said it happened far more redside than it ever did blueside - amazing how you cut that part out of the quote, though. Hmm. But even in the part you left in, you'll notice I used the word "Some." |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Hey, by that logic we should assume everyone who plays exclusively Blueside is exactly like Smileytroll.
Don't lump everyone else in with the bad-mouthed garbage |
Are there jerks blueside? Sure. But I get far more just spontaneous heals, buffs, etc. than I do redside.
Are there good people redside? Sure. But I run into more jerks there, and they stand out more because of what I said.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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Well, now the wording of the first part implies I'm either a jerk or trying to bastardise your words to make my own point.|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
Did I say everyone was? No. I said it happened far more redside than it ever did blueside - amazing how you cut that part out of the quote, though. Hmm. But even in the part you left in, you'll notice I used the word "Some."
Are there jerks blueside? Sure. But I get far more just spontaneous heals, buffs, etc. than I do redside. Are there good people redside? Sure. But I run into more jerks there, and they stand out more because of what I said. |
I'm not. I'm just pointing out that your view on that is entirely subjective. I, for instance, have most of my friends redside and from my main redside SG. Blueside is...well, kinda dead for me.
It also may well be different on the US servers. Union's always been fine for me both sides; equal mix of nice peeps and jerks
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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...And to think, they still decided not to revamp Mercy Island.
The biggest kick in the teeth to me came when RWZ was revamped. I took my only character, a level 45 Stalker and jumped on a LGTF. I spent the next few missions wondering who the hell all the NPCs were (Penny, Clockwork King, Hero 1, Fusionette) and why my character was helping them.
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Hm. That's an interesting idea. Covert ops.
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Originally Posted by gec72
I still want red contacts in blue zones and blue contacts in red zones.
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So, they revamped a hero zone in a co-op zone and that somehow manages to be a 'kick in the teeth' for villains according to you.|
Originally Posted by Cauda
...And to think, they still decided not to revamp Mercy Island.
The biggest kick in the teeth to me came when RWZ was revamped. I took my only character, a level 45 Stalker and jumped on a LGTF. I spent the next few missions wondering who the hell all the NPCs were (Penny, Clockwork King, Hero 1, Fusionette) and why my character was helping them. |
What you're doing in the LGTF and the whole of the RWZ is fighting off an alien invasion. It's all pretty clear in the contact and mission texts. I can think of a number of good reasons why some of my villains would sign up for that. And with the few that wouldn't, well, I simply don't put them through the RWZ.
As far as the NPC's go: You're taking Penny away from the Rikti because they're using her as a super charged psychic battery to open an interdimensional portal to their homeworld, which would be bad for earth. Since you joined the Vanguard and their war to stop the Rikti, that seems a pretty obvious thing to do. Noone's helping the Clockwork king, not even the heroes, he's just a chum that gets in the way and needs to get flattened. Hero 1, my villains don't save him, they beat the crap out of him and leave the heroes to do as they see fit with the leftovers as it doesn't concern them. Fusionette isn't actually in the LGTF, but in the arcs she's actually there to help you. That's the idea anyway. You can always get her killed or completely ignore her as you see fit.
People's rigid lack of imagination with these sorts of things always annoys me.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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As someone who spends about 90% of his time in game villainside I have to say that I have never encountered anything like this in any significant way. The only time I've ever had someone 'griefing' me by wiping out the mobs I was hunting was heroside in the Hollows.
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Originally Posted by Stormbird
What a fine example of humanity you're being here.
Though the attitude in your post does remind me of one of the OTHER reasons I rarely play redside, besides all the others listed here (no variety low level, depressing, trashy look, etc.) Unfortunately, it's not one the devs can program away. Redside seems to give some players the impression they have free rein to be complete jerks to others. I'll be on a lowbie, obviously doing some hunts or something, and have a 50 come by and nuke everything - then follow me around killing stuff until I grab a newspaper mission. Why? "lulz im a vilin." Or I'll ask them (and I *do* ask nicely) to stop, and get a screen full of vulgarity. Or they'll train a bunch of other mobs over to me. Yeah, they get /ignored and petitioned. But it happens more redside in a month than I've EVER seen blueside. I like my masterminds, corruptors, brutes, doms. Come I21, I'll like them even more because I won't have to put up with that. |
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
I like red side and I don't think it needs any "fixing" in the sense the OP is suggesting. I like the murky weather and the dark streets.
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I guess you'll find First Ward as a big slap in the face then |
Originally Posted by Cauda
...And to think, they still decided not to revamp Mercy Island.
The biggest kick in the teeth to me came when RWZ was revamped. I took my only character, a level 45 Stalker and jumped on a LGTF. I spent the next few missions wondering who the hell all the NPCs were (Penny, Clockwork King, Hero 1, Fusionette) and why my character was helping them. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Probably because Villain players that haven't touched blueside-|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
So, they revamped a hero zone in a co-op zone and that somehow manages to be a 'kick in the teeth' for villains according to you.
What you're doing in the LGTF and the whole of the RWZ is fighting off an alien invasion. It's all pretty clear in the contact and mission texts. I can think of a number of good reasons why some of my villains would sign up for that. And with the few that wouldn't, well, I simply don't put them through the RWZ. |
1) Get treated like they are all jolly good fellows who should totally play along with the Heroes
2) Get all these random people who they've never even heard of (i.e. ALL Hero side contacts, allies and/or villains) thrown in
3) Generally get treated like they do in the rest of the old stuff which should have been learned from ages ago; Lackeys.
That said, I still love RWZ. It'd just be nice to get some, ANY distinction between Hero and Villain at times. As it is, it reads like ALL the arcs were designed for Heroes.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Oh, y'mean like every single one of your posts, and the continued presence of you on the forums?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I guess you'll find First Ward as a big slap in the face then
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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You need to edit your sig |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Oh, y'mean like every single one of your posts
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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We redsiders simply need to acknowledge that the co-op arcs need to be understood by the lowest common denominator.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
As it is, it reads like ALL the arcs were designed for Heroes.
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That said, I'd LOVE to see Heroes have to do something eeevil for the good of mankind.
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We do - we sometimes have to team with Recluse's little helpers |
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
That said, I'd LOVE to see Heroes have to do something eeevil for the good of mankind.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Actually, Redside is pretty much perfect as it is because it allows you to have a safe refuge from Golden Girl.
No, really.
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I've never understood that figure of speech. It seems to be used in an attempt to be degrading, but the lowest common denominator is useful in adding, subtracting, and comparing fractions. It's as if an ignorant person wanted to sound sophisticated and only understood the words "lowest" and "common" without understanding the full meaning.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
We redsiders simply need to acknowledge that the co-op arcs need to be understood by the lowest common denominator.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Couple of points I want to address here, the first being that people prefer to play Heroes.
For that other game with equal content, one thing that has to be considered is the name attached to it. If you ask anyone on the street to name characters from that universe most of the names you get will be from the signature hero team, and the Natural and Tech Villain mentors. The reason the hero side is favored there is because they are working with those heroes they read about as kids.
Some of that spills off into here as well. Now as a contrast to that point a game that is effectively GTA the MMO has been in beta for a while now with two factions. Heroes and Villains though they are called something else completely. Guess what, Villains consistently outnumber heroes frequently getting a 2 to 1 ratio.
As for RWZ, without getting into too much detail or ranting,
RWZ was a huge disappointment from a Villain perspective since it was the first new story content added to CoV since I7 and it completely ignored all story content CoV already had. It also ignored any potential motivations a CoV player might have. And what's really bad is a single contact running a faction check and having some villainous story could have gone a long way.
RWZ was an update to Hero side that Villains could tag along with. Same for the ITF and even the Incarnate Trials feel like that.
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Games based on PvP always attract more players who like being villains |
Originally Posted by DMystic
Couple of points I want to address here, the first being that people prefer to play Heroes.
Some of that spills off into here as well. Now as a contrast to that point a game that is effectively GTA the MMO has been in beta for a while now with two factions. Heroes and Villains though they are called something else completely. Guess what, Villains consistently outnumber heroes frequently getting a 2 to 1 ratio. |
Fore xample, in the well-known superhero IP MMO that crashed this year, the populations on the PvP servers are actually split slightly in favor of villains.
I think it'd be quite interesting to see the pre-GR split of PvPers here - I think it'd be a lot closer than the 60-40 PvE split
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RWZ was a huge disappointment from a Villain perspective since it was the first new story content added to CoV since I7 and it completely ignored all story content CoV already had. It also ignored any potential motivations a CoV player might have. And what's really bad is a single contact running a faction check and having some villainous story could have gone a long way. RWZ was an update to Hero side that Villains could tag along with. Same for the ITF and even the Incarnate Trials feel like that. |
Although unlike the RWZ, there are some repeatable faction contatcs there - so Vilalins/loyalists can still run missions themed to their morality, even if the actual zone storyline ignores them.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Trying to make heads or tails of that statement...|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
We redsiders simply need to acknowledge that the co-op arcs need to be understood by the lowest common denominator.
That said, I'd LOVE to see Heroes have to do something eeevil for the good of mankind. |
Wouldn't Villains be the lowest common denominator as, whatever motive for the content in the RWZ must have a derivative of villainous moral in it? Or are you saying that's how it should be?
If not, maybe you mean Greatest Common Multiple? As in, the motive is derived from the common prime motives of each faction then combined to obtain the primary objective?
So example of Greatest Common Multiple:
Villains
-Stop the Rikti from taking over...your world.
-Steal Rikti tech to sell to highest bidder.
-Eat rikti babies.
-Destroy Rikti.
-Stab that hero in the back that's helping you.
Heroes
-Stop the Rikti from taking over the world.
-Rescue civilians caught in the crossfire.
-Help Traditionalists.
-Destroy Rikti...Restructurists army.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You'll find First Ward just as disappointing then Although unlike the RWZ, there are some repeatable faction contatcs there - so Vilalins/loyalists can still run missions themed to their morality, even if the actual zone storyline ignores them. |
First Ward is a different situation as that's aimed at expanding Praetorian lore, so everything within would expand the world of Praetoria and either peel away another of Cole's layers or add more depravity to the Resistance. I haven't actually poked around in there on Beta though.
Regardless First Ward expands Praetoria, RWZ was expanding both Paragon and The Isles. It fails horribly at expanding the Isles, First Ward even if slanted towards Resistance will still be expanding Praetorian Lore.
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Here's a clue - there's only one zone storyline, so that means it's co-op - so it's heavily leaning towards Heroes/Resistance |
Originally Posted by DMystic
expand the world of Praetoria and either peel away another of Cole's layers or add more depravity to the Resistance.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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^ Agreed|
Originally Posted by DMystic
First Ward is a different situation as that's aimed at expanding Praetorian lore, so everything within would expand the world of Praetoria and either peel away another of Cole's layers or add more depravity to the Resistance. I haven't actually poked around in there on Beta though.
Regardless First Ward expands Praetoria, RWZ was expanding both Paragon and The Isles. It fails horribly at expanding the Isles, First Ward even if slanted towards Resistance will still be expanding Praetorian Lore. |
That, and First Ward DOES cater to Villains; you can make some quite nasty choices and cave in more than a few skulls if you so choose.
It's the choice that's important, and everything GR and since related has that choice, I find.
Previous stuff, not so much.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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And what is your reward at the end? |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
That, and First Ward DOES cater to Villains; you can make some quite nasty choices and cave in more than a few skulls if you so choose.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Though the attitude in your post does remind me of one of the OTHER reasons I rarely play redside, besides all the others listed here (no variety low level, depressing, trashy look, etc.) Unfortunately, it's not one the devs can program away.
Redside seems to give some players the impression they have free rein to be complete jerks to others. I'll be on a lowbie, obviously doing some hunts or something, and have a 50 come by and nuke everything - then follow me around killing stuff until I grab a newspaper mission. Why? "lulz im a vilin." Or I'll ask them (and I *do* ask nicely) to stop, and get a screen full of vulgarity. Or they'll train a bunch of other mobs over to me.
Yeah, they get /ignored and petitioned. But it happens more redside in a month than I've EVER seen blueside. I like my masterminds, corruptors, brutes, doms. Come I21, I'll like them even more because I won't have to put up with that.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.