Villians how to fix redside
By
Aisynia,
Posted on: 2011-09-03 11:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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For financial reasons (and possibly due to my difficult attitude), the strange 1st grade private school I was shipped off to once a week (the other four days being spent at regular classes) to learn things like fractions, French, and (for reasons I still don't fathom) occasional oddball things like clown schooling was only attended by me for that one year. |
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
So what was 5th grade, polar transformations? *Snicker*
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9/18 and 2/18 for the numbers given, but that's beside the point. We're just talking about the denominator. I'm glad to see you understand fractions, though, even if you doing math isn't exactly on the topic of the thread. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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If this community is the largest group of egocentric close-minded individuals you've ever met, I have to assume you haven't been part of many gaming forums. This community is only a mild-mannered polite community relative to other large MMORPG and gaming communities. Perspective is what makes it special. |
Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
REALLY?! REALLY?! THIS COMMUNITY? The one that for the longest time shouted down PvPers and their concerns? The one that spent this ENTIRE topic arguing over petty matters of perception regardless of any actual evidence to the contrary? The community that involves certain people who are so narrow minded that they can't possible understand that there is an entire other half of the game that is devoted to "bad people" and goes on inane raves ending in emoticons that never contributes anything to the subject at hand? Or how about more pointedly your own treatment of Stalker detractors in the Stalker forums Leo?
This flat out INSANE idea that the community in this game has ever been anything special blows my mind. This COMMUNITY is the largest group of egocentric close minded individuals I have ever met. Nice people? Sure. But so wrapped up in themselves they can't possible accept that anyone ever feels differently than them and WONT let things drop until the other party leaves or just nods their head in agreement. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
How to fix redside:
Make an appointment with your local vet or a mobile vet.
*badumptish*
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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Well Tenzhi I have to respectfully disagree on this point, I have found much more accepting and nicer communities in the other MMOs I have played. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
If this community is the largest group of egocentric close-minded individuals you've ever met, I have to assume you haven't been part of many gaming forums. This community is only a mild-mannered polite community relative to other large MMORPG and gaming communities. Perspective is what makes it special.
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This isn't to say that I haven't met good people in this game, heck I even met my now wife in this game all those many years ago. I just see such arrogance from so many people here. In other MMOs there are people being mean spirited and rude for the sake of being a troll. Here people are CONVINCED that they are right and put a new level of fervor into their attempts at making everyone agree with them.
But, again, I have to say the best group of people I have ever gamed with, maybe with the exception of my old group on Planet Side, was on this game. They just happened to leave with i13 and since then the only groups I have been able to find end in total nightmares. May be a symptom of Virtue now that I think about it....
No relation to Arachnos!
Part Pack: Now the majority of players know how we, PvPers, have felt for years now. Don't want to be so "civil" now that you have been completly ignored, do you?
My two cents:
Red-side needs to feel more "villian-y"
How I would do it:
1) Concentrate on the solo side of villainy. Villains don't tend to play well with others (just ask the Sinister Six or the Rogues) so lets see more arcs with heroic and civilians targets and a bit more skulduggery. For example, missions or arcs that another villain shows up to team or oppose you, only to betray or back you up... make in unpredictable on what they're going to do.
2) Smaller arcs... "schemes" if you will, with a "payoff mission at the end. Have certain mini-arcs be pieces to larger schemes to be perpetrated in the future.
3) Hero-involvement. How-bout a optional mission system that lets you cross hero zones to get to and from your missions? A little light PvPish, I know - but whats the fun in being a super-villain without a bit of hero-meddling? Maybe the mission alerts a random hero in the zone with a message that reads "there's a villain in your area, making his escape... stop him!" then give the villain two minutes to evade, and the hero two minutes to catch him before he "escapes." The hero catches you, you split the xps and the villain finds himself in an "escaping from jail" mission.
4) Hero-involvement, part duex. How-bout an Arch-Nemesis system? Take the above system. Then, if you choose to be someone's arch nemesis (a mutual agreement, like a leveling pact) you *always* know when they're in a zone you are as well, and vice-versa... maybe even allowing you to enter each others (solo) missions to attempt to foil them. "Oh Crap... Captain Gitinmyway, again!?!"
Thoughts?
It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets
... Hit it ...
... Hit it ...
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But what if there are zombies and it's a disease and spreading? Who cares if it's in the middle of the city - you need to nuke them! Of course, it didn't turn out well in the movie, but that's beside the point. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I'll say it again, I don't consider acts similar to blowing up a hospital "for the population's own good" to be heroic. Or are we saying the Joker from The Dark Knight was some awesome hero now?
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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ya rly|
Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
REALLY?! REALLY?! THIS COMMUNITY?
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Seriously, you seem to have an axe to grind. Or perhaps several. And you're bring up things going back years. Some things have been gnawing at you for a long time? Let it go.
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This flat out INSANE idea that the community in this game has ever been anything special blows my mind. This COMMUNITY is the largest group of egocentric close minded individuals I have ever met. Nice people? Sure. But so wrapped up in themselves they can't possible accept that anyone ever feels differently than them and WONT let things drop until the other party leaves or just nods their head in agreement. This community is great as long as you go hand in hand with what ever the popular sentiment is at the time. Now that things like raiding, and gear, and micro-transactions have come out you are starting to get wedges slammed between what was once a cohesive wall of self righteous ignorance. I have usually been on the other side of the fence so this is nothing new to me. |
The irony is strong in this one.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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"I am standing in the produce aisle and bitterly complaining that there is no meat here."
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Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
I supported, still do, PvP. I like the new iTrials. I prefer Red Side. I think that micro-transactions are lame.
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I find it hilarious that the person you quoted likes pvp but is against something that can bring more revenue into the game, and thus FINALLY get some extra resources that could go INTO adjustments for PVP.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
"I am standing in the produce aisle and bitterly complaining that there is no meat here."
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IRONY.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Well, considering the original comment I was referring to basically amouted to "Blueside? Yeah, they're simple people", I feel we're more mature than that.|
Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
REALLY?! REALLY?! THIS COMMUNITY?
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As for your other rants, /threadjack
Stalkers *are* fine. I farm with mine just like I do my Brutes and Scrappers. Could they use more? I'd say so...and Scrappers too. Just because an AT could use some touching up doesn't mean they're underpowered. My problem I have with Stalker detractors is their solution is to make Stalkers into Scrappers and I DO NOT WANT MY STALKERS AS CARBON COPIES OF SCRAPPERS. If you don't like my opinion, you are free to ignore me.
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Errr, actually the game is NOT giving us that option. Giving us that option would mean having to revamp every zone in Praetoria. Which they aren't going to do.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The heroic option is to save the people there and set them free from the evil grip of Tyrant and the loyalists - guess which option the game is giving us?
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Ehh I wouldn's say EVERY Stalker detractor feels that way.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Well, considering the original comment I was referring to basically amouted to "Blueside? Yeah, they're simple people", I feel we're more mature than that.
As for your other rants, /threadjack Stalkers *are* fine. I farm with mine just like I do my Brutes and Scrappers. Could they use more? I'd say so...and Scrappers too. Just because an AT could use some touching up doesn't mean they're underpowered. My problem I have with Stalker detractors is their solution is to make Stalkers into Scrappers and I DO NOT WANT MY STALKERS AS CARBON COPIES OF SCRAPPERS. If you don't like my opinion, you are free to ignore me. |
However, I agree, I also don't want my stalkers as carbon copies of scrappers.
I have brutes for that.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I've been thinking about this thread since I posted in it yesterday and two things crossed my mind;
- To the OP - was your intent of this thread to generate constructive criticism of something you see as 'broken' (linked to the 'fix' part of the title)?
- If the above is true, is your assessment that redside is 'broken' based primarily on the fact it has a lower player population (and is likely to lose more with i21/Freedom)?
- OP is submitted
- Discussion commences in a relatively civil manner
- Judgements, opinions and beliefs are introduced/recycled as 'fact' by both sides (e.g. GG in the blue corner and myself in the red corner)
- Personal attacks may start after this
- Thread devolves into chaos
I've come to realise I don't need to 'defend' redside content, and I will fight my urge to react from this point on, as I don't feel this debate will ever come to a resolution, as there is no resolution when people are involved.
And that's what this boils down to at it's core - people and their preferences, formed from a lifetime of experiences, which has been influenced by their value and belief systems and their frame of reference. it's not my role to try to change this, and I doubt I could.
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Originally Posted by BrandX  The best way to get redside active (and you never know, if i21 brings a massive influx of new players, it just might become very active) is possibly for redside players to get active in promoting the game. |
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Without sneering at the rest of the game and the people who enjoy it, as so often happens with any polarity distinction (red/blue, PvP/PvE, free/paid, etc. etc.).
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I am curious as to how this notion of redside players getting more active in the game will work, and in what forms it will take. I would hope that everytime I log in and play I'm being active, whether that be by joining SFs (or co-op TFs or itrials), putting stuff on the market, providing advice in the 'help' channel, etc.
I genuinely would like to know what BX and CP sees as the path to implementing this greater participation by redsiders, and also if blueside players will be working on this iniative to increase population. The question is, do we need to? To me, there are two assumptions that are being made;
- Redside players are not active in the game
- Low population means that redside needs CPR lest it die and stink up the place
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I am not against micro transactions per say, I appreciate that it will bring us more content sooner. I just hope that it doesn't turn into a scenario where everything is paid for and new free content just disappears. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I find it hilarious that the person you quoted likes pvp but is against something that can bring more revenue into the game, and thus FINALLY get some extra resources that could go INTO adjustments for PVP.
IRONY. |
But really, I don't think anyone is so delusional to actually believe that PvP will ever be revisted in this game, even if it is...to little to late. That ship sailed a long time ago and I have made peace with that. What I haven't forgotten is how many times I was told by the community at large that my chosen community were all terrible people and the game would be better off if we all just left.
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| "I am standing in the produce aisle and bitterly complaining that there is no meat here." |
No relation to Arachnos!
Part Pack: Now the majority of players know how we, PvPers, have felt for years now. Don't want to be so "civil" now that you have been completly ignored, do you?
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And rightly so! Meat doesn't belong in the produce aisle. It's the produce aisle. Do you know nothing about supermarket operations?
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Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
Well when this theoretical produce aisle used to have meat, good meat at that, then it was taken away because vegetarians complained.
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And hopefully you see at this point how your analogy falls apart....
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
And rightly so! Meat doesn't belong in the produce aisle. It's the produce aisle. Do you know nothing about supermarket operations?
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No relation to Arachnos!
Part Pack: Now the majority of players know how we, PvPers, have felt for years now. Don't want to be so "civil" now that you have been completly ignored, do you?
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Nope, still lookin' pretty sturdy from here. One of the things that actually drew me to City of Heroes back in the day was that it didn't have PvP. The game wasn't designed for it, the player base got along fine without it, and it's done little but generate strife and meta-strife, like this very conversation, ever since it was bolted awkwardly on in Issue 5.|
Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
And hopefully you see at this point how your analogy falls apart....
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So! Let's recap. Produce aisle, meat out of place... yep, the metaphor still works.
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That's cause of the *** hats that DID exist in that community. Be they few, ONE is all it takes to annoy folks on the forums or in game. Not to say there are not idiots in pve.|
Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
I am not against micro transactions per say, I appreciate that it will bring us more content sooner. I just hope that it doesn't turn into a scenario where everything is paid for and new free content just disappears.
But really, I don't think anyone is so delusional to actually believe that PvP will ever be revisted in this game, even if it is...to little to late. That ship sailed a long time ago and I have made peace with that. What I haven't forgotten is how many times I was told by the community at large that my chosen community were all terrible people and the game would be better off if we all just left. Well when this theoretical produce aisle used to have meat, good meat at that, then it was taken away because vegetarians complained. |
Also, many folks felt the game never needed pve to be successful. Seeing as how pvp was never serious in this game and the game is still standing after 7 years ... I don't know.
Honestly if they revamped pvp, this playerbase would still ignore it. It's always mostly been a non-pvp playerbase.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I don't see this as a downside for redside.|
Originally Posted by Garielle
Case in point. on the blue side, there are 11 normal zones plus 9 hazard zones for a total of 20 zones. On the red side, there are 7 normal zones, and no hazard zones. This means blue side has nearly three times as many zones. One upon a time, this used to be balanced by the fact that to travel between these zones, you had to make multiple hops. For example. to get from Atlas Park to Talos, you had to take the train to Steel Canyon or Skyway, switch lines, and then take the train to Talos.
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Hazard zones, while nice for flavor and backstory, are ghost towns. They have been so basically forever, except for periods when some of them were popular for street sweeping. The devs almost certainly took their que from that observation when they neglected to give villain side similar zones.
The argument about "normal" zones has some merit, but I can see it from two sizes. On one side, more zones is more diversity and therefore more depth. On the other, more zones is just more space that people don't really congregate in anyway in a game so heavily oriented towards instanced content.
I like the structure of the open zones in the Rogue Isles. It's basically one zone per level range, with some overlap in the higher level zones. The only two that really compete significantly for the same level ranges are Nerva and St. Martial.
Notably, CoH is reducing its number of non-hazard zones by one in I21. Galaxy city going away, discounting the echo we'll retain for badge purposes.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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We arrest Recluse and his henchpeople on the STF, but for some reason the red side zones remain totally unchanged |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Errr, actually the game is NOT giving us that option. Giving us that option would mean having to revamp every zone in Praetoria. Which they aren't going to do.
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Or if you prefer a Praetorian version of the same thing, we defeat Neuron and Bobcat on the Tin Mage TF, but when we go to Neutropolis, Neuron is still there under his tower, and Bobcat is still in Studio 55.
We defeat Battle Maiden on the Apex TF, but when we go to Neutropolis, she's still standign on her trainer platform.
We tear up the BAF, but when we go to Nova Praetoria, it's still holding prisoners, and Nightstar is still on her training platform in Imperial City.
We smash Lambda Sector, crippling a large part of Tyrant's military power, but when we go to Neutropolis, it's still totally untouched, and Marauder is hanging out in Nova Praetoria.
We take control of the Keyes' Island reactors, but when we go to Neutropolis, they're still in the hands of the loyalists, and Anti-matter is still hanging around beside them.
We see Vanessa DeVore die on the Underground Trial, but when we go to First Ward, she's hanging out by the Chapel of Enduring Light.
So far, we've defeated over half the Praetorian Gaurd, and massively degraded Tyrant's loyalist forces and his ability to wage war across the dimensions - but there's not a single sign of that anywhere in the Praetorian zones.
Using those zones as a way of guessing what happens next in the Incarnate storyline isn't really a very good idea
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
[redacted]
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I'll go ahead and tell my hispanic cousins and brother in law that they deserve less than me because I'm white, and there are more of us. I'm sure they'll think that's fair.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The stats they gave us for the 7th anniversary.
And the devs still insist on givng us a even 50-50 split for all new content, meaning that the blue side is getting 10% less that it deserves, and red side is getting 10% more than it deserves. Hopefully in future Issues the devs will give us a fairer split to reflect the population sizes of the 2 factions, instead of treating them both equally. |
I'm only ladylike when compared to my sister.
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Putting aside the ridiculous racial tie-in, if there were a rationing or division of resources and there were four of them and six of you then you would deserve sixty percent of the allotted resources as compared to their forty percent. Dividing the resources fifty-fifty would, in fact, be unfair at that point.
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Originally Posted by Aisynia
I'll go ahead and tell my hispanic cousins and brother in law that they deserve less than me because I'm white, and there are more of us. I'm sure they'll think that's fair.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Loyalists are not villains.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Although unlike the RWZ, there are some repeatable faction contatcs there - so Vilalins/loyalists can still run missions themed to their morality, even if the actual zone storyline ignores them.
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Power: Rogue (Hot shots that only do what they do for fame and power, looking out for number one).
Responsibility: Hero (Genuinely good people, perhaps often ignorant of Cole's true intentions, they believe in the paradise, and their story arcs almost always involve acts of heroism and genuinely helping make the city safer for the little guy).
Warden: Vigilante (People who believe that what they are doing is right, and by default, work outside the law, instituting their own justice to create a better world).
Crusader: Villain (Terrorists).
I'm only ladylike when compared to my sister.
REALLY?! REALLY?! THIS COMMUNITY? The one that for the longest time shouted down PvPers and their concerns? The one that spent this ENTIRE topic arguing over petty matters of perception regardless of any actual evidence to the contrary? The community that involves certain people who are so narrow minded that they can't possible understand that there is an entire other half of the game that is devoted to "bad people" and goes on inane raves ending in emoticons that never contributes anything to the subject at hand? Or how about more pointedly your own treatment of Stalker detractors in the Stalker forums Leo?
This flat out INSANE idea that the community in this game has ever been anything special blows my mind. This COMMUNITY is the largest group of egocentric close minded individuals I have ever met. Nice people? Sure. But so wrapped up in themselves they can't possible accept that anyone ever feels differently than them and WONT let things drop until the other party leaves or just nods their head in agreement.
This community is great as long as you go hand in hand with what ever the popular sentiment is at the time. Now that things like raiding, and gear, and micro-transactions have come out you are starting to get wedges slammed between what was once a cohesive wall of self righteous ignorance. I have usually been on the other side of the fence so this is nothing new to me.
I supported, still do, PvP. I like the new iTrials. I prefer Red Side. I think that micro-transactions are lame. And I think that Stalkers definitely need a buff even though they are my favorite AT.
I don't know if it is the growing age of self entitlement or what but the community in this game has always been very self inflated and was only so cohesive as long as they had a common enemy, I.E. another sub community. Now that the over community has begun to split everyone has turned into a bitter rhetoric spewing introvert. They want there's and to hell with everyone else.
No relation to Arachnos!
Part Pack: Now the majority of players know how we, PvPers, have felt for years now. Don't want to be so "civil" now that you have been completly ignored, do you?