Villians how to fix redside

I like how people underestimate a villain who's powerful enough to not only hold onto his own army (Arachnos) , his own nation (The Rogue Isles), but is still so powerful, that no matter the few times he's been defeated, he's still around in control of all that.

Your post sounds more like, I like this villain better than this villain, than anything really objective. Your mancrush forum meme of course just affirms it, not to mention it's not Cole trying to keep humanity from wiping itself out, it's Cole trying to keep Hamidon from wiping out humanity by subjigating them, basically mindwashing them, and more than willing to keep humanity alive, by sacrificing a majority of it.

Right, so the real question is why the double standard? Why is it possible to serve Recluse, but not Tyrant?

And no, it's not "because Tyrant will lay waste Primal Earth if he wins". Recluse will do the exact same thing.

But he aspires to greater. More or less, I can ostensibly see reasons why people would take Tyrant's side (especially, amusingly enough, after the Underground Trial). This is independent of any personal feelings on the matter, so let's not go there (not that you did, but...you people know who you are!). Recluse, on the other hand, I just don't see how working for him appeals to anyone looking to be anything other than an evil lackey.

Tyrant says "Look, we're in a really bad situation, and these are necessary evils. You may not like them, but if we want to protect people, we'll have to carry them out." There's plenty of implication that he actually believes in what he says, though, let's assume he is lying, he's still appealing to some people's senses of righteousness. You might serve him willingly, or be his ally, because you think his goal is in the right place (compare to Vanessa DeVore and Calvin Scott...both want Tyrant gone, so they're willing to work with each other).

Recluse says "Pancake you, I'm Lord Recluse, and since I'm the king, I do what I want. And you do what I want, too." In his case, not only is there no real reason to ally with him, it's literally impossible to do so in the first place. You either serve him, in the pursuit of his own personal goals, or you're against him.

Now, granted, none of this actually really matters, since the plot has already been written into railroading everyone into one single direction. But in terms of why people would have different feelings about being railroaded one way and then the other, I think it basically covers it.

The newer red side content is trying to move players away from havign to serve Recluse

And that's where his lies start - none of the repression is needed at all - that's why Tyrant is the bad guy we're all fighting

It's because Tyrant is more like the kind of "glamorous" supervillain some players seem to like - Recluse is very much the over the top and openly evil kind of supervillain, and Arachnos reflects that with its comicbook evil style and methods, and everything about them and the nation they rule is just so totally obvious in its evil.
But Tyrant and his emprie have a different style, even though they're just as evil as Recluse and Arachnos - there are giant war robots, armies of clone soldiers, jack-booted security thugs, enslaved thought police and so on, but the way they're presented is much more "realistic" and way less flamboyant than Recluse and Arachnos.
For example, compare the Wolf Spiders with the PPD, or the Bane/Crab Spiders with the IDF, or the Mu with the Seers, or the Tarantulas with the Warworks - Tyrant's dictatorship is closer to the more practical style of Empire in Star Wars rather than the impractical moustache-twirling comicbook style of Recluse and Arachnos.
Arachnos and the loyalists offer players 2 unique styles of evil to serve, so it's natural that there'll be people who rpefer one over the other.

Discussing villains or loyalists with GG is a complete waste of time and will hijack every thread ever created with her insipid smilies.

Recluse actually has a kind of philosophy. It's kind of esoteric and not very appealing to me personally, but I can sort of see it.

Tyrant says: "Let us all work together for the Greater Good! Sacrifices have to be made of course, but I am willing to reward those brave enough to make these hard decisions!"

Lord Recluse says: "You are free. Nothing is preventing you from doing what you want except those with more power than you. If you want power, take it: What happens to you next is up to you. There are no rules beyond the rule of the strongest, and you have always fancied yourself as precisely that. Now let's see how good you are. As long as you are strong enough and clever enough there will be nothing stopping you."

It's not really a matter of who's the more powerful villain or credible threat, though I realize I may have downplayed it. In fact, it's just the opposite in that regard. Like I mentioned in the other post, Recluse is just as capable of wreaking havoc on the people of Earth. In fact, in that regard, he may be a more significant threat, since apparently all of Tyrant's power derives from the Well and is therefore beholden to it, while Recluse has been stated to have other significant methods for causing trouble.

Rather, the point is that as villains go, Tyrant gives characters a reason to serve him. He can appeal to people with similar senses of self-righteousness, or who, to paraphrase a good guy from a certain movie, simply believe that "a person is smart, but people are dumb". Recluse has no higher goal than his own personal grudge and desire to rule. The goal you serve by serving him is "helping Lord Recluse get what he wants". The goal you serve by serving Tyrant is "helping protect humanity from itself".

The difference in goal is an important reason why Tyrant would hold more appeal to people, hence coming back to answer the question of "why are people unhappy about having to serve Recluse, yet those same people are unhappy about not being able to serve Tyrant?"

Right, but by definition, if you're that hardcore into Recluse's philosophy, you won't be serving him. On the other hand, if you find Tyrant's more appealing you...might work with him. Or you might decide that he himself is one of those hard sacrifices that needs to be made. However, with Tyrant, at least there's a viable path as to why you'd work for him, other than "he'll beat me up if I don't".



...granted, as he's proven with Apex, Tin Mage, and even Admiral Sutter, he is perfectly willing to beat you up if you don't anyway. But at least the way he's written, there could be more than that (even if the game doesn't allow it in any sort of storyline fashion).

I think in a wierd way Recluse doesen't have servants; He has allies. People serve him not because of what his goals are but because of what he can provide; A (somewhat) safe base, resources, an army.

He's basically running franchise-villainy: "I'll help you out as long as you help me out... And when this deal is no longer acceptable we'll fight it out and see who wins."

Recluse's rule is based on naked force in both respects: He uses it to enforce his will and it is also his incentive for people to serve, that he can provide this force when called upon.

That's because Recluse's 'Destined' scheme actually treats you like a lackey working for bit-part schmucks that I could EASILY grind under my iron-clad boots and then slap the rest silly with the remains of the curb-stomped.

Whereas Cole is the real deal; you CAN do it for the glory, and GET the glory. Heck, you can even join Scott and do it 'for the evulz' but you eventually have to turn your back on that as well...for some reason.

It's like the recent CoT costumes, actually. 'We're giving you the stuff you asked for!' holds bugger all weight when its NOT the same stuff you asked for. People asked not to have to work for the 'lackey's-ville' villains, NOT the Villain that actually gave you what you asked for. Much like people asked for Circle of Thorns costumes, not lame WoW-ripoff clones that looking nothing like the parts they asked for...

But then again, none of this post will matter, because you'll give it the same consideration you give ANY post that doesn't fit in your ideal world view that's as patronising and 'as you like it' than any dictatorial view out there...

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Hey now! I just wanted their hoods and we seem to be getting some awesome hoods out of it! Though we should also get the Succubus costume items.

That's my meme, actually. And you have to admit that Recluse's obsession with the Statesman went beyond Dr. Doom and entered into creepy and weird a long time ago. The man isn't trying to rule the world or increase his power, he's content to just show up on the Statesman's doorstep and throw smarmy remarks at him like a spurned lover. And for his part, the Statesman abandons his calm and flies into an emotional rage every time he sees Recluse (check out the tutorial loading screen comic on Beta) like they had a bitter break-up. I honestly feel that the narrative would do Recluse a HUUUGE favour if it stopped identifying him through his relationship with the Statesman.

What really sinks Recluse's sense of power and villainy is that he runs a shithole that he doesn't really run. Aside from that one signed order to Arbiter Sands, it doesn't feel like Recluse does anything at all but exist as a figurehead, because his entire organisation is corrupt, mismanaged and highly unsuccessful at actually running a nation that runs itself behind their backs, for the most part. The reason people praise Tyrant and poopoo Recluse is that Tyrant is the villain with dignity. He rules his nation with an iron fist and everything that happens is said to have been thanks to him. Recluse, by contrast, simply exists in the Rogue Isles and lives among garbage and ruins. If anything, City of Villains looks more like a post-apocalyptic Earth than anything else.

Fixing villain-side would require giving Recluse a little more dignity as the de facto lord of the realm, possibly by giving him a zone that's less of a shithole, and at the same time giving players more opportunities to oppose him successfully, giving them the sense of having overcome a credible threat. Right now, the game's biggest fail is Arbiter Daos threatening to bring the full might of Arachnos on my head and the game playing my character like he's actually intimidated. Yeah, Arachnos, the dudes I've been slapping around like errant stepchildren since I was level 1, and I'm supposed to be afraid of them? Give me a break!

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

This is the view of my current main, who started in Praetoria. From her point of view, Recluse is at least honest about his views, while Cole and pretty much everything in Praetoria is lies and hypocrisy.

Honestly, bringing the full might of Arachons is *quite* a different thing than anything you'd fight in an average mission.

Feel like fighing abou a million arachnos soldiers at the same time as a dozen AV's, and without access to the medport system?

And this all happen at the same ime, mind, not spread out across a map like regular stuff.

Sure, you might be able to personally best Lord Recluse in a fight, but the full might of the organization (that mind, has access to nukes, among other more sophisticated weapons) is a different thing altogether.

It's the difference between having a punch-out with Putin and facing he entire russian army.

Simplistic views of situations are simplistic.

Yeah, so the argument goes, and it's still just as much nonsense now as before. Heroes don't seem to have a lick of problem invading Grandville all the time by themselves and not facing anything from Arachnos and it's not like they're the only people with a mediport system. Nor, for that matter, would fighting about a million Arachnos be all that much of a challenge with the aggro cap where it is. The game teaches me that I can come in and rip their bases apart any time I so please, yet all of a sudden I'm supposed to be afraid of them?

This is the ultimate in god-modding GM ******** - but thou must, and constitutes the single biggest fail of the entirety of City of Villains' story as planned out ahead of time - we're small-time weak-willed thugs who want to suck up to Arachnos while they are the big fish who really matter. Tying vendors and reclimators to Arachnos was a mistake. Tying US to Arachnos was an even bigger mistake.

For all the bad things I've said about Going Rogue, at least it has the right idea when it comes to self-serving agendas. "Sinclair will use you!" says Beladonna. "Sinclair can't use you. No-one can use you! You'll show the Resistance what you're made of, and if Sinclair tries to mess with you, you'll take him down, too. NO-ONE controls you!" That's what a good super villain is. That's what a good super villain does. He doesn't shrink from one bald old man. He punches him in the mouth, takes on the full might of Arachnos and shows Recluse that he's not to be messed with.

It's been six years now, and I'm not any more interested in accepting that Arachnos apologist rhetoric. The game shouldn't be trying to explain why my character is a chickenshit coward. The game SHOULDN'T put my character in a position to be a coward in the first place, and that it does is a fail for City of Villains. The whole narrative treats us like lowlife scum, with every other contact calling us stupid brutes and acting smug and superior. I sincerely hope that Freedom includes as much contact-killing as people are saying, because that's precisely what villains do with contacts who talk back.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

It's still Heros vs Villains

Ther truth is always simple

Only to a simpleton.

So you don't fear any baddies, right? Because they all follow the same logic...aggro caps...ect...ect.

And Arachnos, they're one of the tougher enemies in the game.

So, why fear Praetorians?

Why says I do? Completely on the contrary, I DON'T, and the game doesn't ask me to. Mother says "Kill Vanessa!" and I say "Up yours!" and let her go. Neuron says "I'll build a cyborg to make me famous!" and I say "I'll make you build a cyborg to make you infamous and make ME famous when I kill it." Much as the Going Rogue storyline is railroading - and it very much is - it's still much more about US because, restrictive as the decisions may be, we are still given the option to be awesome and take lip from no-one. That's the whole point of the Power storyline.

*edit*
Before I forget...

I don't and I shouldn't. What sells City of Heroes to me is that my characters are the coolest, baddest, most awesome characters in the game and the ones the game is about. Old content may not be like that, but new content understands the value of catering to the players' own ego. I didn't come to City of Heroes to play somebody's lackey or somebody's fool. I came to City of Heroes "where YOU are the hero!"

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

My character did not flinch when he was told that he would have to fight hundreds of Legacy Chain agents and a dozen heroes that had just recently arrived from Paragon to take him down, all at the same time. Sure he had the power of the blood coral, but still.

Speaking of which, that arc was pretty awesome.

What authority are you of to say what a good super villain is/does?

Personally, the biggest and most dangerous villains of them all are the ones you think you can trust. The ones that, through past exploits, seems worthy of your trust but then goes behind you, takes your **** from right under your nose, stabs you in the back, laughs as he takes your position without effort then, when you try to turn the tables by force, exhibits how powerful he is and how useless your efforts are.

Granted, I do have a few that go the "smack athority in the mouth" approach, but they're less supervillains and more anarchists.