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Team play being faster is simply a reward of going through the extra trouble of forming a team along with the fact that a group should be more powerful than an individual. And time-gating is the nature of a game that makes it's money the longer you maintain your subscription.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I've yet to see any convincing argument for why the Trial/teaming path "has" to be "faster" than any solo path.
Or, for that matter, a convincing argument for why time-gating isn't an awful idea to start with. |
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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If it's the MMO that I am thinking of, yeah. I like how the term used is "Discontinued Operation as of May 31, 2011". But yet the parent company swears to still support the game(s) fully as they find a buyer for the company.|
Originally Posted by Mirai
Still, I don't have much else out there I'm interested in playing. My other MMO belongs to a development team that has recently been "divested" from its parent company.
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I have a friend that is a game Lead over there.
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Originally Posted by Oliin
No, you're thinking of the people who actively dislike the trials. There's also folks who are fine with the trials but who think soloable incarnate content would be fun too. Just because someone doesn't actively lobby for something doesn't mean they don't want it all the same.
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My main beef isn't that people want a solo option for getting this stuff. It's that they feel entitled to it, that they act like it's a slap in the face that they haven't gotten it yet.
There's a huge difference between these two types of posts:
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Hey all, I know a lot of people like the trials, but I've never liked content that requires a lot of people to complete. My machine that I bought just a couple of years ago can't handle the load very well of a lot of this stuff even when I crank the settings down, and the massive raid things have just never appealed to me as a play style. I don't mind doing team content, but this is just a bit overwhelming to me. I'm running some of the trials to get this stuff on some of my favorite characters, but at some point, I would really appreciate it if the devs would consider making some solo- or small team-oriented arcs that I could run to get some of these rewards. |
On the other hand:
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I don't like the way this game is going. I remember when you could do everything solo, but now it looks like if you're a solo player, the devs no longer care about you. I was hoping that we'd get solo options to complete this stuff, but what they've given us would take billions in influence and is a slap in the face. Oh, and by the way, I HAVE been working on trials. I've been doing them almost continuously for the past two days not even taking time to sleep, and I only have all of my slots filled on three characters. I have over EIGHTY level 50s, am I supposed to do nothing but trials from now on? It's going to take me MONTHS to get the highest tiers filled on all of them! It was a good seven years, but this ridiculous. I'm sad to see the game degrade to this level, and it's no wonder people are leaving by the hundreds. If I wanted this kind of system, I'd be playing that other game. I'm letting my subscription go after this month, and I hope all of you people who love grinding and farming are happy. |
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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My guess is that the devs know the human nature of its player base. From my experience people tend desire the path of least resistance, and if its presented they will take it. If the solo path to Incarnate powers and items is quicker than or takes the same amount of time as the Incarnate Trials then why bother to do or even have the trials at all, a very large chunk of players would take the solo path.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I've yet to see any convincing argument for why the Trial/teaming path "has" to be "faster" than any solo path.
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Paragon Unleashed Forums
Twitter: @Alpha_Ryvius
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To play devil's advocate for a moment, the answer is because everything else in the game works that way.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I've yet to see any convincing argument for why the Trial/teaming path "has" to be "faster" than any solo path.
Or, for that matter, a convincing argument for why time-gating isn't an awful idea to start with. |
You get to 50 faster on a team of 8. You finish TFs/Trials faster with a team of 8.
The team path should ALWAYS be faster than the solo path.
This doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a solo path.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Because this is an MMORPG. Like it or not, one of the founding principles of this genre is that a bunch of people are going to be playing together. The more people play together, the more enticing this particular game is going to be within the genre it is being sold. Therefore, it is beneficial to the game and its developers to reward group-based activities more than solo activities to encourage people to participate in the former.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I've yet to see any convincing argument for why the Trial/teaming path "has" to be "faster" than any solo path.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Or, for that matter, a convincing argument for why time-gating isn't an awful idea to start with.
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We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
Sigh, I did have a long piece of writing here. But I was moving toward writing a long, detailed dissertation on the difference between Virtual Worlds and Online Games, and whether either side is particularly right in this instance.
To boil it down into the simplest terms - They're both right, but should stop expecting one another to bow to pressure from the other side.
Solo content and Team content SHOULD be here, and SHOULD be able to share the same space. The Dev team SHOULD be able to provide both in a reasonable time.
Whether they will or not is another matter entirely.
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Actually, if you look into Bartle's take on the situation, it's just that a bunch of people will be sharing a virtual space with the ability to communicate and interact. He says nothing about people having to actually playing together - nicely or otherwise. Interaction is encouraged within a virtual space only - it shouldn't be forced.
| Like it or not, one of the founding principles of this genre is that a bunch of people are going to be playing together. |
Forse: lvl 22 FF/NRG Defender
Tam Krannock: lvl 37 Shield/Mace Tanker
Toppa Grace: lvl 25 Fire/Ice Blaster
----
Red Commissar: I'm in the Queen Mother. Only more awesome. And alive
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True story: A dev told me in beta they were afraid people wouldn't run the trials they put so much work into if there was an alternative (even if the alternative was slower).|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I've yet to see any convincing argument for why the Trial/teaming path "has" to be "faster" than any solo path.
Or, for that matter, a convincing argument for why time-gating isn't an awful idea to start with. |
Instead of just making sure the trials are fun and stand on their own merits, they decided to force play of them by making them the only way to advance.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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well, to put it in a slightly less pejorative fashion, they keep people from burning through the content as fast as they can and burning out. its really kind of linked to behavioral psychology, behaviors repeated quickly and repetitively, regardless of rewards, die out fast. putting some limiter on them, and randomizing rewards makes them last longer and delays burnout, so it does make sense.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Team play being faster is simply a reward of going through the extra trouble of forming a team along with the fact that a group should be more powerful than an individual. And time-gating is the nature of a game that makes it's money the longer you maintain your subscription.
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Yet that would be a distinct improvement since, at the moment, a solo option does not even EXIST.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Solo Incarnate content is fine - but people need to be prepared for it to be a lot less efficient at making progress than the core Incarnate content of the Trials - the system simply isn't designed or intended to have a solo option be anywhere near as fast as the normal Trials option.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Dunno about time gated, but I'd like solo stuff that took about four times as long to aquire compared to a trail - if the trial took 3 hours, I'd be happy soloing for the same amount over a 12 hour period.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Interesting use of the term "a lot" - there are quite a few posts about it, but it's by the same few people
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------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
Yet that would be a distinct improvement since, at the moment, a solo option does not even EXIST.
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Which is lame. Geko proposed some awesome stuff in another thread.
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Ah yes, the old "It's an MMO! You HAVE to group" argument. MMO simply means that there are lots of other people playing the game at the same time you are. However, you seem to be ignoring the other half - RPG. Applying your MMO logic, then the Devs need to "encourage" everyone to Role Play in order to advance as well. Anyone who doesn't want to Role Play in large groups can still advance, but at a much, much slower pace.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
Because this is an MMORPG. Like it or not, one of the founding principles of this genre is that a bunch of people are going to be playing together. The more people play together, the more enticing this particular game is going to be within the genre it is being sold. Therefore, it is beneficial to the game and its developers to reward group-based activities more than solo activities to encourage people to participate in the former.
I'll let Positron answer this for you himself. He's the expert and explains it better than I could. |
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Sounds about right.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
True story: A dev told me in beta they were afraid people wouldn't run the trials they put so much work into if there was an alternative (even if the alternative was slower).
Instead of just making sure the trials are fun and stand on their own merits, they decided to force play of them by making them the only way to advance. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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That is... disturbing. Not too surprising to hear, but quite disturbing. Even more disturbing is that they don't see the disrespect for some of their players inherent in that decision.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
True story: A dev told me in beta they were afraid people wouldn't run the trials they put so much work into if there was an alternative (even if the alternative was slower).
Instead of just making sure the trials are fun and stand on their own merits, they decided to force play of them by making them the only way to advance. |
Hunter's Forty-Sixth Rule: If your head explodes, you were thinking too much, otherwise you shouldn't worry about the possibility.
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Well, it exists, but it's incredibly slow and expensive. You could earn shards solo and use Inf to convert those to threads to use to unlock all 4 new slots, and then build them up at a glacial pace toward the higher tiers. |
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Yet that would be a distinct improvement since, at the moment, a solo option does not even EXIST.
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It sounds about as fun as DIY oral surgery to me.
"I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes."
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Originally Posted by Dispari
True story: A dev told me in beta they were afraid people wouldn't run the trials they put so much work into if there was an alternative (even if the alternative was slower).
Instead of just making sure the trials are fun and stand on their own merits, they decided to force play of them by making them the only way to advance. |
Dear god, if that's true then the Dev's fail.
They fail firstly for trying to force people to all play in the same style, despite people playing how they want for seven years.
The biggest fail though is they are forcing people to play content that frankly doesn't work. What's that you don't have the latest cutting edge computer? Well enjoy your graphical lock ups and crashes, because you have to put up with it, if you want to progress. That's not even mentioning the fact the LFT system doesn't work as it should, the whole trial getting kicked from the map, pseudo pets/pets not counting towards rewards screwing over entire ATs, the terrible server lag on the BAF when it gets to the bit where you're trying to prevent prisoners escaping.
If the Dev's really want people to play the trials, how about solving all the problems with them first, and y'know making them fun and not a laggy, glitchy, frustrating cluster ****?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Sorry, everyone... GG has already stated that everyone posting on these forums in favor of solo incarnate options are not "a lot" and therefore we'll never get what we want.
You see, it's been estimated that only around 5% of the player base posts here. (A figure I've never believed.) And I've only seen maybe 10% of the posting population speaking positively about the solo option. (Actually, it's been closer to 50 but play along with me here.) Supposedly we've still got somewhere around 100000 subscriptions active.
So.. 10% of 5% of 100000 equals... 500. That's not a lot of people. GG's right.
Unless, of course, it is actually closer to 50% of the population that solos and teams and would like incarnate pathing coming from both sides.
What's that you say? That it's far MORE likely that it's only a very tiny minority that has to be on a team 100% of the time they play? The the percentage of these people are likely to be on the same level as the people that refuse to join teams of any kind no matter what?
Wow. Imagine that.
The fact is that this statement is what I hear most: I team and solo as my time allows, as my friends are on, as my mood fits me.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Quite frankly, if they didn't have faith in their ability to accomplish the former, they shouldn't have settled for the latter.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Instead of just making sure the trials are fun and stand on their own merits, they decided to force play of them by making them the only way to advance.
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Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
True story: A dev told me in beta they were afraid people wouldn't run the trials they put so much work into if there was an alternative (even if the alternative was slower).
Instead of just making sure the trials are fun and stand on their own merits, they decided to force play of them by making them the only way to advance. |
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Question. Do you find standing around while another player powerlevels you fun?|
Originally Posted by Dispari
True story: A dev told me in beta they were afraid people wouldn't run the trials they put so much work into if there was an alternative (even if the alternative was slower).
Instead of just making sure the trials are fun and stand on their own merits, they decided to force play of them by making them the only way to advance. |
Rhetorical question. Many players will do that rather than actually play the game. People will always take the path that they perceive to be the one of least resistance even if it isn't the most fun. Many people want a solo option. But for a large subset of those folks, it has nothing to do with thinking the trials aren't fun. It's because soloing is easier, even if it's slower.
It's easy to beat up the devs because they "force us to play their way." Hell, I used to do it to. But that's part of their job. To save us from our own worst impulses for the betterment of the game. Is this a situation that qualifies? Maybe. Some people might never have tried the trials were they not the de facto only means of advancing. They would have used whatever views they had about raiding, whatever excuse they could manufacture to just take the solo route exclusively. And they would have missed out on fun.
Now is that everyone? No. But if the devs believe(d) enough people need to be herded into the trials so that they would at least try them, I'm not going to begrudge them that. The solo option will come along in time.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Not even a little bit. But I have recently learned that powerleveling myself by soloing tweaked AE arcs isn't all that bad. Not something I'll do regularly, but it's been interesting watching this spines/fa scrapper progress.| Question. Do you find standing around while another player powerlevels you fun? |
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| Many players will do that rather than actually play the game. People will always take the path that they perceive to be the one of least resistance even if it isn't the most fun. |
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| But for a large subset of those folks, it has nothing to do with thinking the trials aren't fun. It's because soloing is easier, even if it's slower. |
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| It's easy to beat up the devs because they "force us to play their way." Hell, I used to do it to. But that's part of their job. To save us from our own worst impulses for the betterment of the game. |
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| Maybe. Some people might never have tried the trials were they not the de facto only means of advancing. They would have used whatever views they had about raiding, whatever excuse they could manufacture to just take the solo route exclusively. And they would have missed out on fun. |
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| Now is that everyone? No. But if the devs believe(d) enough people need to be herded into the trials so that they would at least try them, I'm not going to begrudge them that. The solo option will come along in time. |
The people that want to try out the trials will do so. Those that don't won't. There's not a damn thing the devs can do about that. So why bother "forcing" anything?
Every time the devs have attempted to force behavior, the attempt has failed. People should learn from their mistakes.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Not a big surprise. When Positron said:|
Originally Posted by Dispari
True story: A dev told me in beta they were afraid people wouldn't run the trials they put so much work into if there was an alternative (even if the alternative was slower).
Instead of just making sure the trials are fun and stand on their own merits, they decided to force play of them by making them the only way to advance. |
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| When we first started working on the Incarnate System we knew that it needed a certain amount of awesome attached to it in order to get people interested in actually doing it. If there were not specific rewards tied exclusively to the system, then people will simply continue to do “whatever is easiest” to attain the new rewards created for it. |
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That's not true even of this instance. From all accounts both the WST and the Incarnate trials have generated exactly the response the devs intended from the playerbase.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Every time the devs have attempted to force behavior, the attempt has failed. People should learn from their mistakes.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I've yet to see any convincing argument for why the Trial/teaming path "has" to be "faster" than any solo path.
Or, for that matter, a convincing argument for why time-gating isn't an awful idea to start with.