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False dichtomy. | People will always take the path that they perceive to be the one of least resistance even if it isn't the most fun. Many people want a solo option. But for a large subset of those folks, it has nothing to do with thinking the trials aren't fun. It's because soloing is easier, even if it's slower. |
Fun vs 'Easy' (read: Faster).
"Large Subset" - numbers or you're just projecting your own assumptions.
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What people seem to be afraid of is that any solo option will be cheap, easy and fast. Or, it will be cheap, easy and take forever.
For the solo option of incarnate plots to work, they'd have to be incredibly well written single-person narrative stories that give the player the impression of working towards greatness - whilst not dealing an immersion-breaking blow of "but... everyone's doing this?"
If the solo options were well written, with a variety of tasks to perform that could not be automated, that had a random element to them that made people engage and think instead of clicking the same sequence of buttons over and over again - with something in place that made it -harder- if you ran it too often...
That gives me an idea.
Time-gates. Instead of time-gating activities, instead have a monitor on the number of times ran. If you've not done it before, or it has not been done in the last 48 hours... it's on normal level. If you've done it in the last 48 hours, spawns are set at x1.5. If you've done it in the last 24 hours, spawns are doubled, and all mobs have a passive increase to resistance to all. In the last 12 hours? Look forward to 3x the spawn with a passive increase to resistance and damage. Immediately trying to re-play the same mission to farm it? Say hello to 4x the spawns with an increase to resistance and damage and a chance of spawning extra bosses. None of this applies if you're in a group.
Solo farming too easy? Make it progressively harder to do. Don't force me to sit on my hands waiting, and don't force me to team with someone. Give me the option to do it. Always options.
Forse: lvl 22 FF/NRG Defender
Tam Krannock: lvl 37 Shield/Mace Tanker
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Red Commissar: I'm in the Queen Mother. Only more awesome. And alive
I'm actually kind of surprised people are A-OK to be treated like cattle. Yes, indeed, we are so incapable of self-preservation that we need to be herded into doing whatever a higher intelligence believes is better for us and occasionally milked for money. And all of this so we can live docile lives appropriate for generating the most income for the lowest cost of investment.
And this doesn't strike you guys as insulting?
I'm not making this up. Every time the subject comes up, the usual arguments are:
1. "It's a business, they're out to make money not to entertain you."
2. "You don't know what's good for you, the developers know better."
3. "You're in the minority, you don't matter."
It's not hard to construct the above argument from those repeating arguments, even if I did inject a little melodrama to tie it all together.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Hrm...curious to how many story arcs (variety is nice dammit! 
) they would have to make for a solo Incarnate path to be somewhat in line w/ how people are earning their stuff teaming...and or course let them be repeatable so you can continue earning threads/astral/empyrean merits (of course the empyrean merits would still follow the same rules as they are now)
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Not at all. It's been shown in this very game over and over. From dumpster diving to the Winter Lord debacle to the AE exploits, people have taken the path of least resistance in derogation of their own fun.|
Originally Posted by Forse
False dichtomy.
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Likewise folks have always made extremely reasonable arguments for why the developers shouldn't try to force us to play the way they want us to. And I'm sure that for many people there is no need to be herded into any particular content. But, there is a non-zero number of people who do need to be herded into activities. The devs believe this. Whether it is true is all but irrelevant, they believe it and act accordingly. All MMORPG developers do. Our developers at least are sympathetic to your argument. Other games they would have just said 'no' and moved on to create more raids.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Quite often, yes |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
GG's right.
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There'll be some more solo Incarnate content eventually - but the main progression is via Trials, so those need to be worked on first, as they're quite complex to make.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I don't necessarily want solo content - I'd like team content that can be soloed. I don't like easy - the one mission I refuse to do again is that 'be invincible and mindlessly slaughter the incoming hordes' as it bores me to tears. I prefer small teams, where I can see what's going on, have to think on my feet, not just follow orders and use my full powersets - generally do more than just press F1, F2, F3, rinse and repeat.
Especially as it's already getting harder to get enough people together for a league in the off peak times I play
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Personally, I'm wary of time-gating mechanics in general, because they essentially prevent me from playing the character I want to play when I want to play him, how I want to play him. This is actually the central source of my dislike for forced teaming events. When I log on a character and I feel like doing something, I want to up and do it. But what if there are no teams forming for it? What if no-one wants to run that content (say, Sewer Trial)? What if I've done it within the last 20 hours and I can't repeat it for another 6 hours? What then?|
Originally Posted by Forse
Time-gates. Instead of time-gating activities, instead have a monitor on the number of times ran. If you've not done it before, or it has not been done in the last 48 hours... it's on normal level. If you've done it in the last 48 hours, spawns are set at x1.5. If you've done it in the last 24 hours, spawns are doubled, and all mobs have a passive increase to resistance to all. In the last 12 hours? Look forward to 3x the spawn with a passive increase to resistance and damage. Immediately trying to re-play the same mission to farm it? Say hello to 4x the spawns with an increase to resistance and damage and a chance of spawning extra bosses. None of this applies if you're in a group.
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I don't so much mind the time-gating on Tip missions because they're just one small subset of the things I could be doing, so even if I'm time-gated on tips, I can run story arcs - a mission is a mission is a mission. However, when I'm time-gated on the ONLY activity I want to do, then this becomes a problem. I suppose the assertion is that I can just swap to another character and essentially play several at the same time via alternating, that isn't actually an option for me. I thrive on familiarity. Whenever I alt to a character, the first day or two are actually quite unpleasant, until I manage to get a good feel of this character's powers, what he can and can't do, where all of my binds are, how fast my powers recharge, what I want to slot for the next couple of levels and so forth. It's only after I settle into the character that I fully enjoy the game.
This is a problem with certain game design decisions, since grind content REALLY drags when you sit down to do it over and over again for lack of an alternative path of progression. If I were inclined to swap between three or four characters per play session, it might not feel as repetitive, but I stick to one character for a week or two at a time.
It is for all of that why I don't appreciate time-gating mechanics.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That's actually the first somewhat convincing argument I've heard. There is something to be said for consistency, anyway.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
To play devil's advocate for a moment, the answer is because everything else in the game works that way.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
I'll let Positron answer this for you himself. He's the expert and explains it better than I could.
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I love the trials, I find them quick and easy, and they run just fine on my four-year old PC. I'd still like to see some kinda way to make meaningful progress without having to run trials. It's not my show though so I will take what I can get.
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Except when you're running a strong soloer who needs something other than an Ancient Nictus Fragment and you can only play during off-peak hours. In that case, it's a hell of a lot easier to grind out the shards. And when was the last time you earned a Penumbra of Rularuu through a CoP?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
People run TFs for Alpha components because it's significantly easier than grinding out shards. Likewise when they eventually add a solo content path to the later slots it will be significantly slower than the trials for the same reasons.
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Originally Posted by HellsPixie
Ah yes, the old "It's an MMO! You HAVE to group" argument. MMO simply means that there are lots of other people playing the game at the same time you are. However, you seem to be ignoring the other half - RPG. Applying your MMO logic, then the Devs need to "encourage" everyone to Role Play in order to advance as well. Anyone who doesn't want to Role Play in large groups can still advance, but at a much, much slower pace.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Rhetorical question. Many players will do that rather than actually play the game. People will always take the path that they perceive to be the one of least resistance even if it isn't the most fun. Many people want a solo option. But for a large subset of those folks, it has nothing to do with thinking the trials aren't fun. It's because soloing is easier, even if it's slower.
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| Some people might never have tried the trials were they not the de facto only means of advancing. They would have used whatever views they had about raiding, whatever excuse they could manufacture to just take the solo route exclusively. And they would have missed out on fun. |
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Originally Posted by Forse
For the solo option of incarnate plots to work, they'd have to be incredibly well written single-person narrative stories that give the player the impression of working towards greatness - whilst not dealing an immersion-breaking blow of "but... everyone's doing this?"
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The whole Incarnate system is an utter failure in writing; from the character-hijacking in a game that prides itself on its customization to the reliance on a Villain Sue and a sudden omnipresent and insane! cosmic force to explain why they're recycling the same villains we've already fought before to the seeming obsessive need the dev team has to write up a storyline explanation for gameplay mechanics even though all previous attempts *cough*powerproliferation*cough* have been terrible and mostly ignored.
As far as "writing" goes, I want glorified paper missions. I would rather have no story to speak of than the tripe that passes for story these days. Make some arcs with neat mechanics and just don't bother slapping the half-*** attempt at a story on after the fact.
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But for how long? A lot of people both on the forums and whom I've chatted with in game-- who don't post to the forums--are burned out on the trials. Already. I know that it didn't take me long to decide that I was only going to pursue incarnate on one toon (after a night of grinding the same trial over and over it became clear to me that I just don't have the temperament to keep doing the same thing over and over), and I already know, too, that once she's got them, I won't be running the trials again. At least not for a while (that's the effect of burn-out) and even then only very occasionally. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That's not true even of this instance. From all accounts both the WST and the Incarnate trials have generated exactly the response the devs intended from the playerbase.
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I don't really mind being herded by the devs, but I do mind being herded into something that they know we don't enjoy (that they have acknowledged that they had to make the rewards so fabulous that we'll grind through it like rats in a maze, not enjoying the journey just trying to get to the rewards).
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Whaaat?? Evidently you aren't responding to stimulus properly. We'll have to work on that.|
Originally Posted by Tahliah
I don't really mind being herded by the devs, but I do mind being herded into something that they know we don't enjoy (that they have acknowledged that they had to make the rewards so fabulous that we'll grind through it like rats in a maze, not enjoying the journey just trying to get to the rewards).
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See here.
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That article is fascinating. The incarnate system (so far, anyway) really does follow B. F. Skinner's coercive reinforcement model. Moar virtual food pellets: click, click, click.
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Originally Posted by Mirai
Whaaat?? Evidently you aren't responding to stimulus properly. We'll have to work on that.
See here. |
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Eh? I wasn't talking about the current stories of Trials at all. In fact we probably agree on more points of the current shody standard than disagree. |
Oh right, because the trials represent a triumph of MMO writing. The whole Incarnate system is an utter failure in writing; from the character-hijacking in a game that prides itself on its customization to the reliance on a Villain Sue and a sudden omnipresent and insane! cosmic force to explain why they're recycling the same villains we've already fought before to the seeming obsessive need the dev team has to write up a storyline explanation for gameplay mechanics even though all previous attempts *cough*powerproliferation*cough* have been terrible and mostly ignored. As far as "writing" goes, I want glorified paper missions. I would rather have no story to speak of than the tripe that passes for story these days. Make some arcs with neat mechanics and just don't bother slapping the half-*** attempt at a story on after the fact. |
What I was talking about was that to make an "incarnate" level of solo-play work, the writing needs to be of a high level. You need the suitable context to your abilities.
Why you ask? Because you need to feel special. There needs to be a desire to learn about your own exploits, to engage with the material and become immersed in the gameplay. If you're at the pinnacle of the gameplaying (which is what the Devs have deemed incarnates to be) then you have to feel like it.
Why you ask? Because if you don't, you get either bored - or you go into automatic mode. People are hesitant to accept solo incarnate play because it'd be fast and boring and too easy (or something). So my post was addressing all elements of that complaint.
I was definitely not comparing it to the current writing and saying "We need that for solo stories", because we need better than the current offerings in general.
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| Not at all. It's been shown in this very game over and over. From dumpster diving to the Winter Lord debacle to the AE exploits, people have taken the path of least resistance in derogation of their own fun. |
Fun vs Easy (Faster) is a false dichtomy. Something CAN be both Fun and Easy. Nintendo make a very lucrative career out of it for their company staff.
Easy (Faster) is not the same as something being Easy (Simple). Both are not inherently un-fun universally. Fun is a subjective concept - you can't dismiss something that is quick and easy as 'un-fun' so easily.
Forse: lvl 22 FF/NRG Defender
Tam Krannock: lvl 37 Shield/Mace Tanker
Toppa Grace: lvl 25 Fire/Ice Blaster
----
Red Commissar: I'm in the Queen Mother. Only more awesome. And alive
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If that was universally true it would contradict what I said and what I was told. I was told they didn't want to have an alternate option even if it was slower. What you're saying is people would always take the easier path. Which because trials can be stupidly fast, and give every single kind of component and iXP, would always be the fastest and easiest (they're even pretty short).|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Many players will do that rather than actually play the game. People will always take the path that they perceive to be the one of least resistance even if it isn't the most fun. Many people want a solo option. But for a large subset of those folks, it has nothing to do with thinking the trials aren't fun. It's because soloing is easier, even if it's slower.
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I even mentioned all this to the dev I spoke with. Trials already have huge advantages over other systems like how Alpha advances; you can't go earn uncommons or very rares with the Alpha system. Any equivalent system still wouldn't have the advantages of iXP or randomly getting a very rare. But they still didn't want to add the possibility of people not playing trials.
Think about it for a minute; they introduced an entire new system that revolves around trials rather than something that is equivalent to the Alpha system. If it still worked off the Alpha system it would require you to run enough task forces or earn enough shards to get 64 common components. You'd have to earn 24 rare components (24 WSTs, which is a minimum investment of 6 months). Rather than offer an alternative that would take six months to finish, they forced us to play trials that you could complete in just one week (I know, because I did), entirely because they were afraid people wouldn't play the trials.
I would gladly do almost any alternative option they could possibly introduce because I A) can't run trials without severe system problems, B) just plain don't enjoy the trials because of the system. If what you said was true, they would have nothing to fear by adding the Alpha path as an option, because nobody would ever use it because it's significantly slower. But plenty of people have plenty of reasons to want to run something other than trials.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Wow.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
True story: A dev told me in beta they were afraid people wouldn't run the trials they put so much work into if there was an alternative (even if the alternative was slower).
Instead of just making sure the trials are fun and stand on their own merits, they decided to force play of them by making them the only way to advance. |
That's incredibly discouraging. So the Devs acknowledge they don't want to give us options. That's just....wow. Honestly, words fail me.
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Slower doesn't mean it's not still the path of least resistance. Soloing even if slower is almost always easier than any group option. Just the organizing makes it so. Soloing is almost always easier because it's designed to the lower common denominator where group content need not be. Solo content is often easier, even if it's pretty hard because it can be grouped. See e.g. Ramiel arc which is beyond trivial with even one more person on the team.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
If that was universally true it would contradict what I said and what I was told. I was told they didn't want to have an alternate option even if it was slower. What you're saying is people would always take the easier path. Which because trials can be stupidly fast, and give every single kind of component and iXP, would always be the fastest and easiest (they're even pretty short).
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Of course, none of this is necessarily set in stone. You could make solo content that is actually harder. I just don't think that would be considered a legitimate solo option by some folks. See again e.g. Ramiel arc.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I'm not just talking about soloing (I specifically mentioned the Alpha path which requires mostly task forces). I'm saying they declined adding absolutely any alternate method whatsoever because they wanted to guarantee that if people wanted incarnate stuff they had to play trials. There were tons of suggestions in beta, ranging from "use the Alpha method" to "use the Alpha salvage and shards instead," to "let us get thread drops on +4 difficulties" to "reduce the costs so they're more reasonable to earn," to "let the Apex/Tin TFs drop stuff for the new slots," and the devs weren't interested in any of them.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Slower doesn't mean it's not still the path of least resistance. Soloing even if slower is almost always easier than any group option. Just the organizing makes it so. Soloing is almost always easier because it's designed to the lower common denominator where group content need not be.
Of course, none of this is necessarily set in stone. You could make solo content that is actually harder. I don't think that would be considered a legitimate solo option by some folks. |
The people you're talking about are looking for the fastest and easiest method. The path of least resistance would be to run a few half-hour trials and be done with everything in a few days, rather than run missions for six months. As long as we're talking about fastest, easiest, path of least resistance, and whatever, trials will always win. You would be crazy to think that people looking for the shortest route to the end would opt for the one that takes 24 times longer.
And people who want to solo will solo; that has nothing to do with what alternative methods are available to them. If people's preference is one type of content, they'll do that type of content even if it's not the most efficient. My preference is "anything but trials," so as soon as we get another option I'll unretire my other incarnates to get started.
And "organizing" a trial is not hard. Only one person has to do any organizing. Idle in RWZ or Pocket D and someone will do all the organizing for you.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I'm unsure why you keep stating this. I decide one day to lead a lambda. I felt that I had done it enough that it wouldn't be a big deal.| Soloing even if slower is almost always easier than any group option. Just the organizing makes it so. |
Organizing it was nothing more than broadcasting, "Lambda starting, X spots left." Once full, we ran it. This is not more difficult than anything else in the game. It took X amount of time, yes, but that is all.
What about running it? I repeated the same instructions that I had seen other people use. I faceplanted once that trial. We finished in average time. Where's the "more difficult that soloing," EG?
Now compare it to me soloing the Lambda. Which would be more difficult again?
Please cease stating something that is so obviously untrue.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Organizing, even if easy, is harder than selecting a mission and entering. Why you choose to come up with the irrelevant analogy of soloing a Lambda is beyond me.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Please cease stating something that is so obviously untrue.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Let's say they had allowed people to do ITFs for threads/thread components. Would people decide to do a TF they've done a hundred times before and know like the back of their hand, or would they take the time to learn two new encounters designed to be more difficult, even if those missions would eventually become as easy as an ITF. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
I'm not just talking about soloing (I specifically mentioned the Alpha path which requires mostly task forces). I'm saying they declined adding absolutely any alternate method whatsoever because they wanted to guarantee that if people wanted incarnate stuff they had to play trials. There were tons of suggestions in beta, ranging from "use the Alpha method" to "use the Alpha salvage and shards instead," to "let us get thread drops on +4 difficulties" to "reduce the costs so they're more reasonable to earn," to "let the Apex/Tin TFs drop stuff for the new slots," and the devs weren't interested in any of them.
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I know what I think the answer is. I'll leave it to you to come up with your own.
FYI: As I was writing this, I also put a post up on the DCUO forums arguing for solo content. I have no beef with solo content, or non-trial content or any of it. My point is to give the devs a break. What they're doing isn't as crazy or as mean-spirited or controlling as you all are making it out to be. Even if they are ultimately making a mistake, let's see what they do because over time they have always given us what we wanted eventually.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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How is it irrelevant? Because its difficulty would make it impossible to solo for 99% of the playerbase? Because it would be far more difficult to gather enough people willing to start it but not do it?
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Organizing, even if easy, is harder than selecting a mission and entering. Why you choose to come up with the irrelevant analogy of soloing a Lambda is beyond me.
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Be well, people of CoH.
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That's the point, EG. If the devs are going to give us what we want eventually, why do they insist on dragging it out when they could have put in both the faster, easier path of trials along with the slower (but not idiotically slow,) harder solo path at the same time?
| FYI: As I was writing this, I also put a post up on the DCUO forums arguing for solo content. I have no beef with solo content, or non-trial content or any of it. My point is to give the devs a break. What they're doing isn't as crazy or as mean-spirited or controlling as you all are making it out to be. Even if they are ultimately making a mistake, let's see what they do because over time they have always given us what we wanted eventually. |
Be well, people of CoH.
Because they don't have the resources to do both at the same time, perhaps?
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Also...
ITF lag > BAF lag