Solo content.

People who wanted stuff fast would do the new stuff. People who wanted to run TFs would run TFs. People do what they want to do. Forcing them to do something else is not a good idea.

If you did "the Alpha path" and did various TFs and the WST each week it would still take six months.

If you insisted on only doing the ITF it would probably take years. And frankly, if people want to take years to earn the new incarnate stuff that's their business. Let them. What's wrong with that, in fact?

I'm curious what your answer is. Is it "nobody would ever run trials despite their insanely huge advantages over spamming the ITF because I think that all people are predictably drawn to what I personally consider to be easier content" ?

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

A fair point. Then they decide to use those resources for a third trial rather than provide a solo path.

Probably to give the trials a period of exclusivity. That way the folks who would have ignored them out of hand at least give them a try.

My answer is that there is a non-zero number of people who would never touch the trials if they didn't feel "forced" to. And within that group of people there are two subgroups. One are the folks who after doing the trials would still never have done them for whatever reason (their machine, playtime, etc.). Another group after trying the trials would find they enjoy them and add them to the basket of content they consume.

That latter group justifies annoying the heck out of the former group in my opinion.

Extra Credit talked about the differences between "writing" and "narrative" in their Video Games and Bad Writing video. In large part, they point out that a game's narrative can be carried by more than just its writing, more than just text on the screen or voice-over exposition. And in large part, I agree. A great many aspects of gameplay can carry that distinction, as well.

City of Heroes has a rather... Messed-up difficulty curve, but it inadvertently serves to create a very good narrative about player strength. You start the game with only a couple of powers, no utility and very crappy stats. And though you have a whole host of "beginner's buffs" to help you along and most low-level enemies (outside of Praetoria) are pretty weak, we still start out at a disadvantage and being barely able to do much of anything. As the game progresses, the enemies get harder, but through our powers and our knowledge, we get to move quite a bit ahead of the curve. At level 1, I shudder to fight more than three enemies at a time. At level 50, I cackle like a madman as I leap amid a mob of 15 enemies, confident of my victory.

Incarnates don't really need any special writing to speak of (though DECENT writing, for a change, can't hurt) so much as they need special narrative. The Incarnate powers themselves deliver this, in quite a few instances, such as how much stronger they make us than ordinary, old-content NPCs. A good way to deliver the narrative of our power is through the use of comparative strength. Say the content to unlock Incarnate status includes a certain one enemy who shows up as an elite boss and is incredibly strong. Now say I'm 10 Incarnate levels later, and I'm fighting dozens of that same enemy with about the same disinterest as I fight a common minion, while much more fearsome enemies have taken on the role of lieutenants, bosses and up.

For bonus points, keep throwing old-content NPCs at incarnates from time to time. Not buffed up and 4 levels higher than the player, not cheating and as part of cheap scripted sequences. Just as regular enemies. Yes, they would be very easy, but that's kind of the point - to remind the player that "Hey, remember these guys that gave you trouble? Well not any more, ha ha!"

---

Think of something like, say, Crey, and how they progress through the levels. When you first face them in the 30s, you're fighting roughneck security guards and basic unarmed scientists. There are the occasional agents, but they're very dangerous lieutenants. There are also scientists armed with actual sciency weapons, but they're dangerous, too. And then you have the scuba diver dudes, the Crey Protectors. They're the only people you see in power armour, and they're STRONG!

Then a few levels pass, and all of a sudden you're fighting agents left and right, and scientists with freeze cannons and flamethrowers are now just cannon fodder. The dudes in power armours are lieutenants - still tough, but fairly common. And you're starting to see better, more advanced power armour, too. Sometimes REAL tough power armour, like Power Tanks. But the true big bads are the Paragon Protectors. Those guys are NASTY!

Then some levels later you stop meeting unarmoured people at all. It's all Tanks in advanced power armour. The old boss-level Power Tanks are now mere lieutenants. They're just not tough enough any more. The only thing left that can challenge you are the Paragon Protectors, but the aren't the same ones as before. Crey have improved them, and you're now fighting Paragon Protector ELITES!

This kind of enemy class downgrading as the levels go up is a far, far, FAR better way to demonstrate apparent power than any length of text telling you in words how awesome you are.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

you know, i always feel kinda sketchy about sharing things told to me by developers unless they explicitly say its official company line and not just the opinion of one or a few people. because that statement, outside of any real context appears to short-sell the trail systems(which without bogging down on who has the bigger group, on liberty certainly is engaging MOST of the long time players on the lb channel) and looks unfairly damaging. can you give full context of it and whether this was someone who actually worked on the full implementation of it, or was just a worker making a flippant comment under the implied condition of it not negatively affecting his co-workers efforts and reputations? It just seems, as related to us by a person who has been heavily critical of the system, to be a little too black and white .

Your opinion is weird if you're all for intentionally annoying your playerbase (incidentally, lots of "annoyed" players have canceled subs and left the game over the system; I personally have dramatically reduced my playtime and would probably take a hiatus if my account wasn't on a three monther) on the off chance you can get a "non-zero" (which could easily be "one") number of people to enjoy a system they might've overlooked before (and even had just as much fun doing something else, like the solo/alternate path).

PS: parenthesis

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Definitely not disagreeing with that, but considering the genre and setting of comic-books, I feel the writing has to be there and to of a high standard as well.

In a perfect world the narrative story and the narrative action would blend seemlessly. We'd have conclusions that can't be explained by in-game mechanics and events explained to us in reference to what we actually did and achieved. You wouldn't -have- to read them or any story part, but the level of writing quality and its incorporation into your own gameplay should at least pique your interest.

Unfortunately, that's in a perfect world. And don't get me started on what I'd like in a perfect CoH.

Be careful where you draw the lines, for things are never as simple as having just two sides to an issue.

There's also another fact to consider: There's a non-zero group of people who will not run the trials regardless of what you hide behind them. I know this group consists of at least one person - me - because I would not bother with that crap if you paid me real money. Well... Possibly if you paid me enough money, I might consent or.

To me, this demonstrates a profound disrespect for the players' intelligence, and I sincerely hope that this is not the official development team position. I don't pay a subscription fee to be treated like a child.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: are you Dispari?
[Team] Sudona Forte: Yup
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: figured when you said guides. I wanted to talk to you about the Incarnate progression actually
[Team] Sudona Forte: Oh yeah?
Barrier Core Epiphany is recharged.
[Team] Sudona Forte: I'm working on the guide now, recording the Destiny slot information
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: I've seen you post about grinding the two trials for progress, just wanted to remind that there are extra ways to get components aside from threads, ways that take no inf at all.
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: But granted, it is a bit of a grind no matter what.
[Team] Sudona Forte: The Apex/Tin?
You activated the Barrier Core Epiphany power.
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: No, not Apex/Tin - on trial completion you get a reward table that lets you pick any component of a given rarity
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: Additionally, for every badge you get, you earn a random component
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: and if you complete a Master Of badge, you get your choice of rare component.
[Team] Sudona Forte: Yeah. My only concern is that the new trails are the only way to get componets though. Unlike Alpha you can't go do, like, an ITF and get anything useful for Judgement or Destiny. All the rewards are in the trials.
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: it's true. if we put the new rewards in the old content though, people would just grind that instead, because it's so much easier
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: regardless of the number of paths we make, the easiest one will be ground the most.
[Team] Sudona Forte: I dunno, I'd do the trials since that's the only way to get iXP or get uncommon/rare/very rare components.
Barrier Core Epiphany is recharged.
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: as is, there's only one path, but it's definitely the proper challenge level
[Team] Sudona Forte: I do think at the very least the Apex/Tin should give more than 2 threads.
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: Yeah, I mentioned that to BS a couple days ago
[Team] Sudona Forte: That's good, as long as it's thought about. =D
[Team] Sudona Forte: Just a common for any of the non-Alpha powers takes 60 threads, so 2 threads isn't much progress toward that
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: right. You can still do the 10:10 conversion from shards though. so if you do a hami raid, that's pretty much effectively 10 threads.
[Team] Sudona Forte: Yeah, I'll probably do some of that. Just shards take a while to earn and it costs inf too. But my main char has over 60 shards, so after I unlock a slot I can at least get started.
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: One thing is, those threads don't DR on Apex/TM
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: so if we gave 10 threads per complete, people could just avoid the trials completely for common/uncommon powers
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: we basically don't want to craft a system which incentivizes people away from the new content
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: because the more people who are playing the trials, the faster LFG queues go for everyone, etc.
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: it's kind of a compound problem
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: Tell you what though, if you can make a succinct list of all of your concerns with the rewards and put it in the feedback section, i'll have something to point at
[Team] Sudona Forte: Hm, I dunno, you'd still have to do it 6 times just to get one common, not counting the 30 threads you need to unlock the slot. I see what you mean, I just don't like how there's only one real way aot advance over Alpha's "do whatever" approach.
[Team] Sudona Forte: I feel like the trials have enough incentive (iXP, uncommon/rare/very rare components)
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: well, threads = ixp
[Team] Sudona Forte: Oh I think I put some stuff in feedback anyway
[Team] Sudona Forte: anyway = already
[Team] Sudona Forte: I know I put some under the new salvage/component feedback thread
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: Yeah, I have a hard time keeping track of what's where. I'll just search for your posts. :P
[Team] Sudona Forte: I put down about how much money it'd cost and how long it'd take to unlock stuff if you didn't do the trials
[Team] Sudona Forte: Cause even if the trials are the intended way, not everyone can do them (or wants to do them), so there should be good alternatives, like how Alpha works
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: Well one thing is that the marginal utility of rares vs. uncommons is not that high if you don't do the trials
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: the main benefit to upgrading from uncommon to rare is the incarnate shift
[Team] Sudona Forte: Yeah I was looking at some of the Judgement stats when I compiled the info earlier today
[Team] Sudona Forte: For some jumps the only diff is like, 24 max targets changes to 32
[Team] Sudona Forte: Probably not something I'll devote threads to
[Team] Sudona Forte: So I don't necessarily need very rare or even rare Judgement
[Team] Sudona Forte: It doesn't give shifts anyway
[Team] Sudona Forte: And with Interface not giving a shift and capping at 4x stack I might not go too high in that one either
[Team] Sudona Forte: Destiny stands to gain the most from higher tiers, having looked at them all.
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: Lore gets significantly better at high tiers as well.
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: Just doesn't show well in the info.
[Team] Sudona Forte: Yeah, I saw how the buff pet becomes invincible on one side, and how the damage pets get a +50% damage power
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: Alright, I'm going to queue up for some trials.
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: PM me if you have any other questions
Warworks Total Core Improved Ally is recharged.
[Team] Sudona Forte: Have fun! I'm going to add a bunch of numbers to my guide.
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: Enjoy
[Team] Sudona Forte: You can PM me on the forums if you need
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: oh, need inf?
[Team] Sudona Forte: Uhh, I might!
[Team] DEV NAME REMOVED: there's 2 bil
[Team] Sudona Forte: Hehehe, thanks

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

I still don't agree, in that I don't see Incarnates as deserving of good story telling any more so than any other point in the game. If you want to postulate that THE ENTIRE GAME needs better writing, then I would agree with you wholeheartedly. But to pick on one specific system and level range and present it as having a greater need for good writing, that I cannot agree with.

Incarnate stories are like every other story in the game - they're as good as the writer making them. Yes, they're in a different theme and ideally you want someone who can work with absurd and exaggerated storylines while still keeping them grounded enough to be relatable, but that's "better" storytelling as much as it's just a different kind.

Yeah, Incarnate story arcs would bomb if the writing sucked, but that's true for any story arc in the game. Yes, I'm sure lots of people like the mechanics of the I19 20-30 story arcs if they ignore the actual writing, but you'll find few people who actually enjoy reading their text boxes. Yet apparently not having a writer on staff at that particular time didn't seem to stop the development team from cranking out Roy Cooling's arc.

Better writing is always a good thing, but lack of it shouldn't be used as an excuse for lack of content. Not indefinitely.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Which is just what I've been saying

Trials are the main feature of Incarnate content, so they need to have priority - smaller scale Incarnate stuff will come eventually.

I agree.

I've never played a trial in this game, and that includes the respec trials. I'm not going to be playing the Incarnate trials no matter what they unlock.

Which is fine - but you mustn't then complain about not being able to get the rewards linked to the Trials.

I have a theory. It's risky, but I believe that people who like the game, but quit over the Incarnate trials will come back. /ragequits aren't usually permanent in my experience. Because like I've been saying for months. If you liked the game before the Incarnate trials, I don't see what's changed to make you suddenly stop being able to find fun in the game.

Especially since, as folks have mentioned the trials have slowed down since people have capped out and moved back into other content.

Do you honestly think Positron sits down and says "Ok guys, we want the story going forward to be utter crap. You, mission writers...go write me some crap. I'm gonna come up with a premise for the Incarnate system that is as absolutely terrible as I can make it. I want the players to hate it"?

No. We're getting crappy writing because either they're incapable of coming up with something better or they honestly think what they're churning out is good. Or they just don't care. Saying "we need better writing" isn't going to make it happen, especially when a certain very vocal subsection of the playerbase has their lips firmly planted to the developers' behinds and keeps telling them how much they love it, and a far greater section of the playerbase doesn't even read anything.

No, it isn't. It is a bit of effort on the part of the organizer. For everyone else, it's just a timesink. It is far from hard to shoot someone a tell and stand around in the RWZ.

Yeah, it's a compound problem that could have been avoided if they hadn't insisted on basing the end-game around multi-team raids. And as an added bonus, people who dislike the trials due to performance issues wouldn't dislike them as much, so they'd be available to team with too.

Epic is hard to write. Go too far, and it becomes cheesy. Don't go far enough, and people complain that it's underwhelming. Incarnate storylines must account for a greater power level on the PCs' part than anything that has come in the game before, but must still be grounded in the existing world. At the same time, character concept must remain firmly in the player's hands. If that was easy to write, we'd have it already.

Incarnate story arcs would bomb if the rewards sucked. Most people don't bother reading the text boxes. Sorry Sam, we're a minority and you know it. That doesn't excuse the crap they've been shoveling out and calling a storyline though.

I promise not to make any negative (or positive) comments about the content of the trials.

If somebody asks me about the quality of those trials, I'll just decline to comment.

This is a nice theory, but it doesn't hold up completely in practice.

I used to think this too, until I was placed in situations that made me consider quitting for a while, or even actually quit for a while (I've taken more than one hiatus). The flaws in your theory are as follows:

1) Maybe they do come back. Maybe they don't. But it doesn't matter. Players don't have to permanently quit to equate to negative results for the devs. Every canceled sub, even if it's only for a month, is a loss in revenue. Ignoring people because they're "probably going to come back" is ignoring the loss in money each person who leaves is resulting in.

2) Maybe people have already done nearly everything there is to do. Maybe people are waiting on the next big thing to come. And when it sucks, they have nothing left to do. It's easy to say people either love the game or they don't, but it's not that black and white. There could be people who would like the game if they had more to do, because they already did everything else (having 1100 badges and purpled out characters, I'm one of them). "Go back to the stuff you enjoy" is impossible if there's no stuff waiting. People betting their subscription fee on the next issue will just leave if the next issue doesn't do it for them. There's always a pressure to provide more content, because believe it or not content does run out.

3) Maybe people are hanging on because they enjoy the community. If the community is hurt, argumentative, or split because of things, it could damage their reason for being here. If their friends quit, they have nothing left keeping them here. I played RO for years because of the community alone, and that game sucked.

4) It's illogical. People can quit for reasons that don't even make sense to you, but make sense to them. I've quit over things as trivial as us not getting any new free costume parts in too long a time. You can try to explain it or say they would've quit otherwise, but human nature isn't that easy to predict. If I'm quitting because the new incarnate system sucks, it doesn't matter why or for how long. What matters is that the system and I don't agree.

You said earlier that a non-zero number of people would enjoy the trials if they just gave them a chance. I also happen to know that a non-zero number of people have quit the game because of the trials and the participation system. So the real question is if your non-zero number is larger than that non-zero number. Is the system convincing more people to stay than it is to leave the game? And is that net loss or net gain more or less than not having that system at all? And is it more or less than an alternate system would result in? Because if you don't know the answer to those questions, arguing that the system is cool for a non-zero number of players is pretty much irrelevant.

I thought I would love the trials -- until I actually tried them. I enjoy teaming. I do not however enjoy crashing constantly, or being told I'm not playing my character correctly. I also don't enjoy not being able to do anything to work toward the rewards I actually need.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

All right. I tried them. I hate them even more than I thought I would. The reward structure is about the worst I've ever been involved in, across any of the MMOs I've played. So bad I've been driven to posting in the forums to make sure the devs at least have a chance of hearing that not everyone likes their shiny new monstrosity.

A couple of my SG mates have cancelled, even more don't want anything further to do with the trials at all - save, perhaps, posting in the forums in self defense themselves. How is any of this at all good for the game? A few more people posting in the forums about how they don't like the latest content is not really a net positive.