How many times must I die to ambushes before I can re-complain?
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2011-02-14 08:05 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Considering I'm about to take a server full of alts through Praetoria, I better learn to love ambushes. From what I've played, I remember the ambushes being pretty hard, but I've not yet played the missions with either Stalkers or Defenders.
Still, I have to agree with Bosstone that the Praetoria 1-20 is more enjoyable for me than Red or Blue side, for all the same reasons.
To answer my own post, I think Praetoria is harder to a certain extent, but the things that make it harder also make it more interesting. I don't think it was made needlessly hard, either; both because it was also made more interesting, and also because it was introduced at roughly the same time the Incarnate system is being introduced, and the Incarnate stuff is very, very different from typical City of Heroes. So the new players (and the old) needed some training on the new mission paradigm being employed in endgame.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
I did Praetoria with a Defender - the ambushes weren't too bad. But she was a Traps Defender, and Traps is pretty much an anti-ambush set.
I always thought that ambushes should work differently for Stalkers. The ambushes should still charge, but not directly at you. Perhaps to some random point nearby you.
The effect would be that, they know you're there somewhere, but they can't see you. So they have to roam around blindly. There could even be NPC dialog about how they can't find you and how frustrating that is.
If one of them gets aggro, then you can get something like, "He's here! He's here!"
Ambushes should definitely not see through stealth. They've been able to do so ever since I can remember on this game, and it's never not been frustrating.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Quote:
Headshot and Griefer don't appear in the mission - they take up sniper positions and help you out with the Manslayers a little differently.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Oh, great, and now my mission is bugged. I was supposed to give the cure to the "Ghoul King" and defend him from Manslayers with the help of Headshot and Griefer. Neither of the two showed up, I died to three Manslayers and went back inside. The King was up and about, I spoke with him... And my objective never changed from "Talk to the Ghoul King." Resetting the mission does not help.
|
But otherwise, I completely agree. I have to wonder how many people claiming the ambushes were okay played on an non-Scrapper/Brute AT or on a team.
Me and my friends took two 3-man static teams, one Loyalist, one Resistance through Praetoria and we loved the stories, but hated the mission design. The number of times we got flattened by overlapping ambushes, which sometimes included bosses, was extremely noticeable.
We also weren't a fan of how often Praetorian tilesets spawn every possible spawn they can, which didn't make missions more challenging or fun, just tedious as all get out since the groups usually didn't vary much either.
We also noticed that all of these problems suddenly multiplied once we got to levels 15-20. Ultimately, I'm under the impression that Neutropolis' higher rate of bugs, poor writing, and poor mission design stem from it being under-tested due to Going Rogue's supposed rushed schedule.
All that said, it's possible inherent Stamina might've helped. One of our biggest problems was running out of endurance since it's completely infeasible for a level 15 character to keep up against hordes of continuous enemies. (Plus all of the ways endurance can be subtly sapped at that level, such as needing to spend more endurance to put Ghouls down if you let them keep healing each other.)
Though I find it quite interesting that everyone seems to have a different group in Praetoria that they have trouble with. Our team never had a serious issue with Ghouls, actually. And PPD prior to 15-20 were fairly innocuous. Resistance and Syndicate on the other hand...
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
Quote:
And this I can agree with completely. My stalker was born in Praetoria. And though I didn't mind the ambushes so much, I did hate how I couldn't get out of LOS and hide no matter what I did or how far away I got from the mobs.
|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Ambushes should definitely not see through stealth. They've been able to do so ever since I can remember on this game, and it's never not been frustrating.
|
lrn2ply n00b.
....JUST KIDDING, sam! =P
ambushes in GR are pretty over the top, and they're always especially annoying on stalkers.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Stalkers getting a small amount of unsuppressable stealth would help in some small way with this problem. It won't help if all the ambushes are zeroing in on the stalker but it will help mitagate the problem somewhat when a stalker is dealing with an ambush and wanders into the perception range of some mob the stalker had no intention of fighting in the first place.
My main issue with the ambushes got fixed by being able to run at -1, but they can be annoying.
That, and usually having a partner helps tons.
Quote:
Fun fact: during I14 I abused the heck out of the ambush mechanic while testing the architect, and I think in no small part because of me they reduced the number of ambushes you could add to a mission to 3 (its now 6 I believe). I was told that adding that many ambushes to a mission was simultaneously abusing, and potentially exploitive.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't know, I haven't tried. I can't imagine enemies who ignore stealth and interrupt Assassin's Strike will be any less annoying, however, nor will the fact that I'm forced into fighting multiple spawns at the same time a lot of the time.
But none of that addresses the problem of the development team abusing the ambush mechanic to outright absurd levels. Even the new CoV and CoH missions are rife with those. |
The number I was using at the time? Twelve.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
It is more of a cohesive storyline. There's a downside to that though, in that you have to solo or turn off XP to see the entire storyline for a path, due to the linear nature of the contact introductions. If you make another alt to go through the stuff you missed....you end up having to run through contacts you've already done, then turn off XP or solo to see the contacts you missed.
|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
To be honest, although constant ambushes peeve me, I consider Praetoria Easy Street compared to blue or redside. The missions flow far better and the levels are much, much easier to attain. Moreover, Praetoria is actually fun to play through.
|
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
There are currently two different forms of ambush. One type rushes to the place you were when they spawned, and don't have any special awareness of you. The other type knows where you are, has aggro on you, and will not lose aggro unless you die or somehow manage to placate them all. The one most people are annoyed with on Stalkers or any character with strong stealth is pretty obviously the latter.|
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
I always thought that ambushes should work differently for Stalkers. The ambushes should still charge, but not directly at you. Perhaps to some random point nearby you.
The effect would be that, they know you're there somewhere, but they can't see you. So they have to roam around blindly. There could even be NPC dialog about how they can't find you and how frustrating that is. If one of them gets aggro, then you can get something like, "He's here! He's here!" |
Stealth in any form, including that given by [Hide], is a means of avoiding being detected by mobs. If they cannot detect you, they will not aggro on you. The problem with the second ambush type is that they bypass the detection step completely - they spawn knowing where you are.
If more ambushes worked like the 1st kind, I think there would be less annoyance. Sometimes the "heat seeking" ambushes make sense, but they seem to be used willy-nilly with no real convention by Dev mission authors.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I find myself agreeing with every one of your points, Sam.
I wanted to enjoy Praetoria, but I couldn't enjoy the stories because the missions made me really, really angry to the point that I just did care why I was there anymore.
I mean, I played through each arc, and was taking a character through Praetoria recently because they were a dominator, and for RP Purposes I kinda didn't want to have them as a villain for 20 levels.
By level 13 or so, I decided I wasn't going to do any more Praetoria content. I was done with the zone! I'd done all the arcs, and actually decided that not even RP, which I enjoy, was worth slogging through these missions again.
Quote:
About as many that will eventually force you to type an OP that's less than 1 paragraph long |
Originally Posted by Sammy
How many times must I die to ambushes before I can re-complain?
|
Some great points here that I agree strongly with. One of my friends fired up a trial account a while ago, and, whilst they liked Praetoria, they found the unending ambushes very off-putting.
Personally, however, I feel these ambushes are on another level. I've gone beyond calling them 'heat seekers' and more of 'Magic omnipotent missile'. It has repeatedly been the case that, even AFTER i've been flattened and the ambush has run WELL out of LOS, I'll use a wakie a- Oh hello ambush.. and i'm back eating dirt. I don't get how that is fair in that you can't even resurrect in a mission, because ambushes will appear out of literal nowhere and slam you back down.
Now, that was a while ago. Recently, however, my hatred for ambushes was flared again. I was with a team of people, playing as a Mastermind, doing the valentines missions. Now, ambushes spawn, yes, but with a notable difference. They will completely by-pass ANY sort of aggro grabbing ability to get to me. The Brute taunted them: nothing. My pets rip one down to half health: Still coming for me. I leap across the map: They chase me.
This came to the point where I could literally not enter the mission, because if I did, an ambush I had NO hope of defeating would come out of nowhere and violate me horribly. And if I used a wakie? Well, its easy to guess what happened next.
Simply put, ambushes should never do that. Homing in, fair enough, but not on Stalkers. But to simply ignore the (What i percieve as broken) aggro mechanics is appaling, especially on a Mastermind where their pets are their defence.
I was doing some playthroughs of City of Heroes. Now they will serve as memories of a better time ...
Quote:
This, I like "head for a location" ambushes. The heat-seeking ones are annoying though.
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
There are currently two different forms of ambush. One type rushes to the place you were when they spawned, and don't have any special awareness of you. The other type knows where you are, has aggro on you, and will not lose aggro unless you die or somehow manage to placate them all. The one most people are annoyed with on Stalkers or any character with strong stealth is pretty obviously the latter.
Stealth in any form, including that given by [Hide], is a means of avoiding being detected by mobs. If they cannot detect you, they will not aggro on you. The problem with the second ambush type is that they bypass the detection step completely - they spawn knowing where you are. If more ambushes worked like the 1st kind, I think there would be less annoyance. Sometimes the "heat seeking" ambushes make sense, but they seem to be used willy-nilly with no real convention by Dev mission authors. |
And there's two versions of the heat-seeking kind, I believe. One spawns and targets one specific person on the team no matter what. Who gets picked feels like it may be attached to who triggers the ambush. IE, the Blaster getting the killing blow on the boss will get him the ambush aggro. Or the Stalker scouting ahead trips the invisible line that spawns an ambush. But I'm not 100% sure on that.
The other is the kind seen in Mayhem missions. The Longbow ambushes there will split evenly between the team. This obviously has its own problems since they'll still go after Stalkers with no problem, but it's better than a death squad coming out of nowhere to smack down a random squishy.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
Quote:
Not always. I ran The Unusual Suspect last night with a friend who was idling at the entrance while I did the work. When Silent Blade and the doppleganger spawned, both went right for my friend.
|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
And there's two versions of the heat-seeking kind, I believe. One spawns and targets one specific person on the team no matter what. Who gets picked feels like it may be attached to who triggers the ambush. IE, the Blaster getting the killing blow on the boss will get him the ambush aggro. Or the Stalker scouting ahead trips the invisible line that spawns an ambush. But I'm not 100% sure on that.
|
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Quote:
I don't know for sure about the highly personal type you describe, but maybe I just haven't clearly experienced it. I duo my own missions a lot with dual accounts, and if I leave one character somewhere, part of the heat seeker ambushes always seems to seek out each character. But like I said, maybe I'm just not running the right missions.
|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
And there's two versions of the heat-seeking kind, I believe. One spawns and targets one specific person on the team no matter what. Who gets picked feels like it may be attached to who triggers the ambush. IE, the Blaster getting the killing blow on the boss will get him the ambush aggro. Or the Stalker scouting ahead trips the invisible line that spawns an ambush. But I'm not 100% sure on that.
|
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I realise now what is putting me off Praetorian missions a little.
I love the mechanics. I adore the plot. The characters are great.
But I cannot stand the blasted mobs! They all seem to have ungodly high accuracy, multiple stacking debuffs in the same one enemy, and are just so far detached from the standard difficulty that it's unreal.
Fighting Syndicate just now, at +0/x0, I had to use a small green, small yellow, mid purple and a big green....just to beat one minion and a Pyrokin. The minion has a gun that has high acc and -def. And a sword that has -def. And then the kin hits me with Siphon Power, and then BOTH of them are spanking me around like my defences dont matter and I'm trying to fight +4s!
It's not like we even have SOs before we leave! And this is from someone who, while no powergamer, is far from a bad player. I don't bite of more than I chew. I'm fully slotted on this char (KM/SR Scrapper)
And yet I'm still getting spanked about just for DARING to look at a mob.
The 'Hunt Down Shen' mission from Bobcat is an example of the problem:
1) Endless ambushes
2) Homing, stealth ignoring ambushes
3) Ambushes that drop nothing
4) Add just one Kinetic Syndicate LT and you pretty much insa-die, because thye just buffed about 18 minions.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
Hi all,
Just wanted to stop in and let you know we've passed this concern along.
Thanks for the feedback everyone!
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Dear gods, I realise now what is putting me off Praetorian missions a little.
I love the mechanics. I adore the plot. The characters are great. And I cannot STAND the blasted, god-******* haxing mobs! They ALL seem to have ungodly high accuracy, have multiple stacking debuffs in the same one enemy, and are just so far detached from the standard difficulty that it's unreal. Fighting Syndicate just now, at +0/x0, I had to use a small green, small yellow, mid purple and a big green....JUST to beat one minion and a Pyrokin. I mean, sorry? The minion has a gun that has high acc and...-def. And a sword that has...-Def! And then the kin hits me with Siphon Power...and then BOTH of them are spanking me around like my defences dont matter and I'm trying to fight +4s! It's like they let whoever designed the god damn freaking cheating god damn ****ing Vahzilok go nuts in Praetoria! It's not like we even have SOs before we leave! And this is from someone who, while no powergamer, is far from a bad player. I don't bite of more than I chew. I'm fully slotted on this char (KM/SR Scrapper) And yet I'm STILL getting spanked about just for DARING to look at a mob! It's bloody stupid! EDIT: Ok, no. Seriously, GO TO HELL! Whoever designe the 'Hunt Down Shen' mission from Bobcat should be taken out back and be god damn beaten over the head with a bat for how ****ing bad this mission is! Lets see, shall we? 1) Endless ambushes? Check! 2) Homing, stealth ignoring ambushes? Check! 3) Ambushes that drop NOTHING for defeating, making any inspirations used a complete unrecoupable waste? CHECK! 4) Add just ONE Kinetic Syndicate LT and you pretty much insa-die, because thye just buffed about 18 minions beating your face in ON BLEEDING +0/x0?! CHECK! Seriously. BULL-****! Whoever made that mission, go and kick yourself in the face, please. Save me the trouble... /Hacked Off About Now |
Praetorians are, what's the word I'm looking for, somewhat overdesigned.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
If something genuinely gets done, Zwi, then you are as big a star as Avatea (considering I hold her as the Champion of all things EU, that means a lot (to me, anyway |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Hi all,
Just wanted to stop in and let you know we've passed this concern along. Thanks for the feedback everyone! |
))If it was a case of having level 50s facing this...well, even then I'd find the ambushes excessive.
I think the main points, for brevity, are thus;
1) Homing ambushes, which ignore Stealth, effectively negating the entire Stalker AT
2) Overuse of -Def and high accuracy attacks early in the game, when defence sets are low performance anyway
3) I remember people mentioning the Big Dogs negating mez ATs a lot (not a personal gripe, but hey)
4) Overpowered power combinations. Syndicate Kineticists definitely fall into this category (SS/Kin is just wrong on so many levels)
5) Ambushes. Too many ambushes, too fast, too often. They make +0/x0 feel like x8, or even x9
Thanks for the attention to this though, it really is appreciated!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
But is it needlessly hard? For that matter, is it really hard at all?
To be honest, although constant ambushes peeve me, I consider Praetoria Easy Street compared to blue or redside. The missions flow far better and the levels are much, much easier to attain. Moreover, Praetoria is actually fun to play through.
...Well, okay, except Ghoul missions. Man I hate Ghouls. Every time I see them I know the mission's going to be an interminable slog. But everything else is fun!
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.