How many times must I die to ambushes before I can re-complain?

Someday people will realize that there's a keen difference between "these encounters are too difficult considering their context" and "I want an I Win Button". Someday. Also someday people will realize that forcing difficulty on the player for the sake of it instead of giving them a choice is a dumb idea.

Funny, I find that a lot of times Ambushes totally get lost and give up looking for me. Majority of them are syndicate ones though, so it may be some AI issue specific to Syndicate than actually not targetting me.

They're not the oly mez-resistant early game foes (try taking an earth/storm controller through th Hollows nad learn to curse Igneous and their slow res)

Did it with a MM, blaster, corr, and stalker. I have no problems with the ambushes. I do not find the content much more difficult than what we have seen in heroside or villside.

Slow resistance (slow isn't really a mez anyway, it's more a debuff, although it's one where Defenders and Controllers share the same modifiers) isn't as severe a handicap as the protection Big Dogs have.

Even Dominators with Dominate up can't stack enough holds to stop the buggers. Iggies are a pain but they aren't in the same league as Big Dogs are in terms of totally nullifying your primary (holds and knockdown still affect Igneous)

I have to agree with Arcana here. Praetoria is so far outside the scope of difficulty for the low-level game it's amazing, to the point where returning to Primal Earth and taking post-20 missions there feels pleasantly relaxing, and the post-20 game is supposed to be harder than the pre-20 game. And I'm not talking about SOs, even.

Praetoria strikes me as a repeat of the Hollows - content clearly designed for not just late game, but actual END GAME, which then for various reasons was scaled down to low-level content, but with powers still designed for "complete" characters. With the Hollows, they at least had the good sense to remove the imps and the super powers from the 1-10 Hellions and Trolls, but Praetoria was never rebalanced, and it doesn't look like it ever will be.

Going Rogue's stated objective was to get new players into the game. As such, it should have been designed for new players, especially considering brand new accounts are (or at least were) forced to make a Praetorian before they could make anything else, supposedly so they could start with the good, recent content. It's really not a good idea to throw content designed with experience veterans with resources and contacts accumulated when that content is intended primarily for new players.

I've always believed that late-game content has no place in the lower-level game. The lower-level game should be there to ease us into new characters of types we may have never played, and to get us accustomed to said characters before actual challenges begin. That's why AT mods scale with level from essentially the same basic values at level 1, until they finally settle into their actual values at level 20. The low-level game is the time when the game itself should help us along so we can get used to the controls, the powers, the systems and out characters. Not the time to be tested to extremes.

The sad truth - and this is something that took me a long time to realise - is that either through shoddy design or cautious balance, Stalkers have ended up being just that: Slightly weaker Scrappers who get to fight slightly less dangerous spawns. You do have first strike capability, and Placate does help (when it doesn't get invalidated), but trying to rehide and inflict additional criticals, while possible, is so inefficient as to be pointless, especially within a team setting.

What made my Stalkers far easier to play was finally admitting to myself that I'll be spending most of my time scrapping anyway, and so trying to compress my "assassination" within the first few attacks so as to have fewer things to scrap with. It helps... Somewhat, in that ambushes notwithstanding, Stalkers still make for very solid characters. You just have to not play them how they look like they were designed to be played, because they weren't designed very well to play like that.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I soloed through Praetoria with multiple squishies. What does that have to do with anything?

Geko, please don't read this as an insult or a personal attack, but I'm seriously starting to wonder if you're ever going to post something I want to read again. It seems like everything you've posted for the last several months has been put-downs for people who don't enjoy greater challenges, and I'm simply losing my stomach for it.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

It's more difficult that comparable content in Paragon or the Rogue Isles, yes. It is not difficult however. I've seen similar ambush style encounters in multiple MMORPGs. MMORPGs that tend to be significantly harder on average than CoH. As I argued during beta, high expectations force you to improve.

Our devs are TIGER MOMS!

Brutes are pretty easy mode there as well.

A little frustration is good.

STAY STRONG TIM!!

Your bud with the scaly skin has your back!

Frankly, I'm starting to feel similarly. I haven't put anyone down. Read the quote again. I insult no one. I'm responding to the suggestion that this has anything to do with casual gamers or soloers. Just because someone is a soloer or a casual game doesn't mean they want an easy game. You're reading insult into my vigorous disagreement with that idea.

I was not particularly happy after GR. I felt that the devs had basically ignored our request for an endgame. I was wrong. The devs have come back strong and I feel the need to defend their efforts because I'm more excited about the game than I've been since Inventions. But so much negativity because people are being asked to take tip toes out of their comfort zone.

Praetoria ramps up the difficulty and quickly, but honestly, that's not a bit different than many MMOs. I've played MMOs that by level ten you run smack dab into a wall where you really have to learn. Sure that's not what CoH is all about, but neither then is Praetorian anywhere near that difficult. I've said it before. So many times, folks complain but when you drill down on their tactics you see deficits there that can correct the problem.

It's been acknowledged, they just don't really know how to provide a solution.

The Praetorian encounters aren't too hard for their context and I didn't say anyone wanted an "I Win" button. People are asking for the difficulty to be lowered by lowering, removing or changing the ambushes. Which would make it significantly easier. I do not wish to see that happen. I don't mind being defeated once in awhile. I do mind having content so easy that defeat is barely even possible.

The difficulty slider is not legitimate fix for that. That ups the numbers, not the difficulty. The difficulty is basically a side effect of creating more and higher level enemies. Debuffs, ambushes, interesting encounters are fun difficulty.

I think I'll go put a suggestion in the Suggestions/Ideas forum for a difficulty slider. I envision it allowing players to choose not only the level, but the numbers, and maybe I'll even add a boss option.

There's "so much negativity" because not everyone is as happy as you. In fact, I've never been LESS excited about City of Heroes in all of the seven years I've been with the game, and I've contemplated just cancelling my account multiple times since Going Rogue came out, precisely because the game is being made more difficult and more elitist and more raid-centric. You should know me well enough to know that I don't say these things lightly, yet you've made it a point to contradict me at practically every step, to the point where just seeing your name at the head of a post makes me apprehensive to get into it.

You may or may not realise it, but your constant insistence that this is great for the game and those of us who aren't happy about it are doing it wrong or aren't trying hard enough or are somehow at fault in another way is a large part of why I don't feel like coming to the forums these days, to the point where I'm considering taking steps I don't want to take. At the very least, you need to realise the effect you - and that's you personally, not "people like you" or "your position" or anything of this nature - are having on me and at least several people like me. What you do about it is your call, but you need to realise the devastatingly negative effect you are having. You personally.

You also have to understand that, many times over, you act like you're trying to shield the development team from the feeback of people who aren't happy with things. I know that's not your intent and we both know that's not how things work, but that's how you act - like if we choose to complain about raids or difficulty or content or anything regarding the direction of the game, you "feel the need to defend [the developers'] efforts" as though you're trying to shield them from criticism for fear of them changing their minds. You don't need to police the forums like this. If you trust the developers, then trust them to make the right decision based on direct feeback, not just feedback deemed acceptable.

Let people express their agreement or disagreement with the changes, and let the people whose job it is to assess these changes assess the feedback. You would have nothing to argue if you did not consistently force people to defend their right to hold an opinion they hold, because many of us would have simply stopped at "we don't like this, and we wouldn't like to see more of it" were we not pressed to explain ourselves. I shouldn't have to elbow my way past the forum linebackers before I can make my grievances known to the development team.

Again, please don't read this as a personal attack. This is what you can consider my final attempt at brokering some kind of peace between us. If this fails, then we will have to never say another word to each other ever again, because I am tired of fighting with you at every turn. You know how I feel, I know how you feel, so unless we can find something else to discuss, there's nothing left to say.

---

And to stay on topic, if tangentially - "that's not what CoH is about," sums up my feelings on Praetoria neatly. It's not a question of how much more difficult it is. I've demonstrated that I can beat the content, by virtue of completing all four Praetorian arcs, and most of those at +0x2, no less. It's not a question of direct difficulty, but more a question of bottom line. There is no reason to elevate the difficulty of the low-level game, because the low-level game is not where one looks for challenges. The low-level game is the time when the game should be easier so as to allow one to familiarise himself with his character and get a grasp on the game.

That you and I don't need to familiarise ourselves with the game after seven years is irrelevant, because you and I can't pay for the game by ourselves. We need new players, and new players need to be given a new player experience, not a jaded veteran challenge. It's bad form to put excessive difficulty in the early stages of the game, and this is something Cryptic Studios understood and rectified with the Hollows. If Praetoria were level 40-50 content, or even 30-40 content, I'd have little issue. Our characters are able to look after themselves at that point. But it's not. It's level 1 content, and this is a mistake.

Moreover, ambushes in general are badly overused. An ambush rush once in a while really isn't something I'd complain about. I might not be happy with it, but it's a challenge I can meet. Ambush rush after ambush rush, mission after mission, that is what I have a problem with. Ambushes are not an inherently fun mechanic because they take the game away from the player's hands and because they cheat. Used sparingly, they provide variety and challenge. Used irresponsibly, they create hostile, unpleasant gameplay even when you win. And I won out against all of those ambushes, even if some killed me in the process.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Perspective is needed, and many of these threads get one sided. That doesn't do anyone any good, and without counterarguments there isn't a solidly developed feedback. When two sides are taken, the quality of the feedback benefits.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Pre-level 10. Big Dogs are, in my opinion, the single nastiest enemy in Praetoria.

And then they throw another wave at you. And this time you've burned all your insps, and the ambushes don't drop any. And then another wave. And then ANOTHER.

And yes, the TPN mission was an absolute shite, simply because the 'Weakened' Destroyers seemed to toally ignore my Scrappers defences and smacks me about with the P.O.K.E. (Punch of Kill Everything) that nearly all NPCs have instead of Brawl. I ended up having to kite the little buggers using the Kinetics ranged cone...on a Scrapper!

I love the mechanics. Hate the numbers mobs use. Because they simply cheat.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I disagree. "Taking sides" never makes an argument better, it just devolves into faction warfare where arguing takes over fact and opinion. I always find that an outsider's opinion, one who isn't invested in the "argument," is usually the most useful, because it isn't marred by angles and prerogatives and agendas. When a person comes in and says "Man, I love this! This and that was great!" or "This was terrible. I'm never doing this and that again." I find that to be more useful than one guy trying to convince another guy why he's wrong to feel the way he does. A developer takes nothing away from a flamewar. That's why official Feedback threads discourage direct replies.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Feedback != 'I found this easy, L2P' or 'I like this challenge, so everyone else should suck it'

Yes, those are slightly extreme examples of some of the responses, but that's been the underlying curreny I've got for quite some time now.

I don't mind challenge. I like new mechanics. I Loved the BM fight, despite the cheating hussy making me run around with my pets in fast tow more than actually shooting (and totally negating Traps)
I DO mind when that same level of challenge is smacked into an otherwise fun 1-20 experience. These are not the levels to have enemies with that many aces up their sleeves.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.