How many times must I die to ambushes before I can re-complain?
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2011-02-14 08:05 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Would you propose that content should target the bottom, middle or top of this slider's default setting? Should that target be consistent, or wander across the slider's dynamic range, such that the player is recommended to regularly adjust that slider?
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Originally Posted by brophog02
I think I'll go put a suggestion in the Suggestions/Ideas forum for a difficulty slider. I envision it allowing players to choose not only the level, but the numbers, and maybe I'll even add a boss option.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I'd contest that by saying the sort of gameplay you are after would still be easily in reach, even if changes were made to the mobs. That was the entire purpose of the difficulty settings. While you may currently find the +0/x1 settings as they are a fun challenge, a not insignificant number of people obviously find them so much outside the curve of the norm (Arcana included, which surprised me) as to not be as fun as they should be.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I get that you don't like the new content, but again, I do feel strongly that you're not opening yourself up to the possibility that the Incarnate trials aren't for you. This last issue added an arc from Ray Cooling from 20-29. I finally did that in Ouro last weekend. Most boring crap I've ever played. But you know. It wasn't made for me, so I'm not going to complain about it. I'm tired of that kind of content. I like what the devs are doing. So yes, I'm going to argue against you and others when you try to turn it into content that I don't like. Why can't we all have some things we like in the game?
Of course, but by the same token, the devs need to know that not everyone feels the same way as you all do. Typically, I believe the devs actually discuss these things and I'm sure that there are constituencies arguing for your position and for mine in Paragon Studios. I argue as I do because the folks arguing for a vibrant, difficult endgame, need to see that people on the boards support them too. If all the devs get are, "Oh this is too hard." "The game is cheating, stop it." Then they are going to act accordingly. By contrast if they see that there is a substantial number of people who are having a good time, then perhaps they will act to allow BOTH types of playstyles to exist. |
If that were changed, you would still have the option to have the difficulty you crave. Increase the mobsize or mob power as you see fit. The only option for the flipside players is to lower the diff to -1 (and even then I don't know if that would do it in some cases...)
Challenge and 'quick reactions' and all that is fine and dandy in the End Game, an End Game that is even now seeing the light and, IMO, is very good for it. Yes, I got beaten up a lot even on Alpha in the ApexTF, but that is 1)the fault of MMs not fairing too well in comparison to otehrs versus mass AoE and higher mobs and, 2)It's the end game. It's the Praetorian Invasion. I EXPECT it to be hard.
Not true for what is mean to be a new starting zone, one that was touted as being better than the others and also supposed to be the starting zone for trail accounts and new players. New players who will NOT have your or my level of experience, will be getting to grips with basic things like simply moving around, learning why aggro hurts and how to slot things. I'm a frankly quite skilled player who knows very much how to slot powers and which powers to take, and how to manage aggro and deal with most situations. And, despite all of that, through sheer biased numbers Praetoria takes me and smacks the ever loving snot out of me. One Syndicate LT and one minion = facedeath for my Kin/SR scrapper at level 18 unless I make liberal use of insps. I think the first time kinetics in NPCs shows up red of Blueside is Tsoo, in the mid 20s or 30s? NOT ay level 16-20.
I'm not adverse to challenge. I'm adverse to it where it doesnt belong, however. And Praetoria has more than it's fair share, that detracts from enjoying the story and, for new players, getting to grips with the game.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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learn to kill faster or run away quicker
Thelonious Monk
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This is the last I'll say about it to avoid completely trashing my own thread: I don't need to avoid the boards in their entirety, because I have the tools given to me to avoid just you. I do not, however, want to do that, because I have more respect for you than to just up and decide you're not worth hearing from. In some small way, I hope I can make you see reason and get you to stop micromanaging the forums so much, but I don't intend to make a scene out of it if you refuse.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
You shouldn't give me or anyone that much power over you. As I understand it we live about five or six time zones away. Screw EvilGeko! He's a jerk. And that's not some rhetorical flourish. It's me telling you that I am a jerk and that you shouldn't feel the need to avoid the boards because of anything I say.
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This is not the sort of discussion I want to have, and it is not the sort of discussion I will take part in.
*edit*
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
learn to kill faster or run away quicker
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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If it helps, I've always found Pretoria far more difficult than Blueside and Redside starting areas. The worst one was a case when I created an Earth/Earth Dominator (who was neither my first Dominator nor my first Pretorian, so I knew the class and I knew the mission), and got killed by the very first spawn in Praetor White's very first mission.
That was an extreme case, of course (it hasn't happened again) but it's something that never happened at all as a hero or villain. (I immediately deleted that character and re-made him as a Villain, and had little trouble).
Even the Praetorian tutorial makes you go directly through a huge group of Ghouls, which must be a little much for a brand-new player.
The Resistance in general have that curious energy attack that they seem able to pull off with no more tech than a fingerless leather glove. Without that, or with Brawl instead of that, the Resistance would be far less deadly. They'd still be more dangerous than, say, the Skulls, considering Skull Minions have one irrelevant ranged attack and one melee attack while the Resistance still have at least two ranged attacks, but they wouldn't be as far out of line. similarly, I've seen PPD Somethings who displayed at least three different melee attacks, at a level when Hellions have all of one.
It's as if we're fighting Vahzilok all the time, only without the courtesy of poor perception radius and vulnerability to lethal damage.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I've said it more times than I can count. Adding more NPCs and upping their levels doesn't make the encounter more interesting. Yes, it makes it 'harder' but not in a good way. Not in a way that is memorable.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
If that were changed, you would still have the option to have the difficulty you crave. Increase the mobsize or mob power as you see fit. The only option for the flipside players is to lower the diff to -1 (and even then I don't know if that would do it in some cases...)
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I think there are few rather grumpy problems at play, specifically with Sam's situation.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Not true for what is mean to be a new starting zone, one that was touted as being better than the others and also supposed to be the starting zone for trail accounts and new players. New players who will NOT have your or my level of experience, will be getting to grips with basic things like simply moving around, learning why aggro hurts and how to slot things. I'm a frankly quite skilled player who knows very much how to slot powers and which powers to take, and how to manage aggro and deal with most situations. And, despite all of that, through sheer biased numbers Praetoria takes me and smacks the ever loving snot out of me. One Syndicate LT and one minion = facedeath for my Kin/SR scrapper at level 18 unless I make liberal use of insps. I think the first time kinetics in NPCs shows up red of Blueside is Tsoo, in the mid 20s or 30s? NOT ay level 16-20.
I'm not adverse to challenge. I'm adverse to it where it doesnt belong, however. And Praetoria has more than it's fair share, that detracts from enjoying the story and, for new players, getting to grips with the game. |
Stalkers + Ambush = Fail. This is just frustrating and annoying for them. I just wish they would do more of the Ambush to Location Of, instead of Ambush Player. Would still be difficult, and maybe a bit of metagaming solution to allow Stalkers to still kind of benefit from being stalkers. But this mechanic will always suck for stalkers.
The other being just too many ambush waves, too frequently. The diff slider, as said, may be able to help with clearing a group before wave 2 arrives, but even that feels bleh. 10 Waves in a story-arc mission is excessive. About the only time I think 10 waves is reasonable is Katie though.
As you said, the Praetorian groups feel far more like mid 30s mob groups in terms of their abilities than 1-20. It does a good thing in trying to get people in the habit of using their inspirations, sure, but it's a bit too harsh.
Let's Dance!
Lets be honest here for a second . . . . . .
Blue side 1 - 20 = easy mode
Red side 1 - 20 = easy - medium mode
Gold side 1 - 20 = challenge mode
Now if we are purely looking at ambushes then we have to ask the question of at what level do ambushes become "ok" for them to be in the game?
Low level [while i do find them VERY fun i can understand why people dont] is possibly the worst place to have them due to a lack of powers.
High level is again possibly the worst place to have them due to the gap of difference between every single AT, in that it'ld be impossible to create an ambush that at least 50% of ATs would be able to handle in order to make it difficult.
This leaves us with the mid level, the 20 - 35 range where players are just starting to flesh out in their powers. Now currently there arent that many ambush missions in this range [red caps missions and the titan class EB ambush aside] so would people agree that this is the best place to have the Praetoria level of ambushes? Or would you have them removed from the game entirely?
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Im the opposite view completely, I would much rather fight a Resistance boss than a Skulls boss low level purely due to the -tohit and +dmg self buffs they do. I've wiped so many times against a skulls boss that if i see one while flying through kings row, i have to take it out purely as payback.|
The Resistance in general have that curious energy attack that they seem able to pull off with no more tech than a fingerless leather glove. Without that, or with Brawl instead of that, the Resistance would be far less deadly. They'd still be more dangerous than, say, the Skulls, considering Skull Minions have one irrelevant ranged attack and one melee attack while the Resistance still have at least two ranged attacks, but they wouldn't be as far out of line. similarly, I've seen PPD Somethings who displayed at least three different melee attacks, at a level when Hellions have all of one. It's as if we're fighting Vahzilok all the time, only without the courtesy of poor perception radius and vulnerability to lethal damage. |
Sam, serious question. At what level in Praetoria do you feel like you are starting to become one of the top dogs in Praetoria? I know that at first every single enemy has a high chance of defeating any AT, but at what level do you feel like you are now superpowered and it is them that should fear you?
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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The rank-and-file Resistance do Lethal and Smashing generally, with the exception of the Heavy Hands who have some Energy Melee attacks (bone smasher). The Officers (who are bosses) have energy attacks. Looking at their powers on Paragon Wiki the Resistance aren't that bad (I've found them ok ingame too, along the lines of groups like Outcasts or Trolls. Bit mean off the bat but inline from level 6ish onwards).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The Resistance in general have that curious energy attack that they seem able to pull off with no more tech than a fingerless leather glove. Without that, or with Brawl instead of that, the Resistance would be far less deadly. They'd still be more dangerous than, say, the Skulls, considering Skull Minions have one irrelevant ranged attack and one melee attack while the Resistance still have at least two ranged attacks, but they wouldn't be as far out of line. similarly, I've seen PPD Somethings who displayed at least three different melee attacks, at a level when Hellions have all of one.
It's as if we're fighting Vahzilok all the time, only without the courtesy of poor perception radius and vulnerability to lethal damage. |
The PPD have 2 attacks each (some have an immob as well) which are Smashing/Energy, which is a bit nasty early on given that melee types tend not to gain their defenses vs Energy until the teens.
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That's exactly what ambushes do, however - they add more NPCs, with the nasty tendency to be +1 to the mission. That's it. That's all they do. There is no functional difference between having spawns come to you in a steady stream vs. you going to them in an unbroken march. Yes, when the initiative is yours, you can choose to stop and rest in-between battles, but I would assume that someone who wants the challenge wouldn't.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I've said it more times than I can count. Adding more NPCs and upping their levels doesn't make the encounter more interesting. Yes, it makes it 'harder' but not in a good way. Not in a way that is memorable.
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The problem is that ambushes essentially force overaggro on me, something I can achieve by training several spawns together. Something, as a point of fact, which I did with Crash, my SS/Inv Brute towards the end of her career simply because I thought I could handle it. Dropping this on me in such a way that I cannot opt out of it, however, especially since I firmly believe the game is built around single-spawn combat of even con at least in the early stages of the game, does not count as the above.
If we have to disagree on one major point, it appears to be on the difficulty settings, more specifically on the notion of intentionally increasing difficulty. From everything you've said so far, I infer you find some intrinsic benefit to having forced, unavoidable challenge that isn't present in challenges you opt in and can easily opt out of. At this point, I will have to disagree. I have no problem with the game being very challenging at any level, so long as I have the ability to opt out of it without the game calling me a dunce.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I say "energy punch" because the power they use looks like Energy Punch from Energy Melee. I don't know what it is or what damage it does (I haven't checked), but I do know it deals a LOT of damage, much more than your average Brawl does.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
The rank-and-file Resistance do Lethal and Smashing generally, with the exception of the Heavy Hands who have some Energy Melee attacks (bone smasher). The Officers (who are bosses) have energy attacks. Looking at their powers on Paragon Wiki the Resistance aren't that bad (I've found them ok ingame too, along the lines of groups like Outcasts or Trolls).
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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How about a warning sign at the creation screen letting everyone know that "Praetoria is designed to have periodic challenges that will tax your gaming skills. Paragon City or Rogue Isles might be a better choice if you are unable to handle ambushes and midly complex gaming situations."
I really dont understand the issue at hand...the game delt the user a defeat or multi defeats? Having to apply multi holds on Lts? Stalkers being seen? Really these are issues that trouble the user base...really?
I'm sorry but I'm old, usually drink an adult beverage or two, play with almost zero game volume, listen to the Cape radio and chat on the phone all while playing and have almost zero issues with 99.9% of the content teamed or solo and to boot im not the best gamer nor am i loaded with io's. Play more peeps play more!
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Oh, don't get me started on those homing bombs... they should be a location AoE, not a targeted AoE! |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
. This is achievable by a decent "goto" bind, and by watching Blast Masters to see when they're about to throw an incendiary bomb. Moving the henchmen as the bomb is being thrown usually lets them clear the burn patch before they take much, if any, damage.
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Also, Geko, Tell me how my stalker can effectivly stalk a mission with a constantly spawning homing Blast Master tracking me. And by constantly spawning I mean that there would be up to 3 on the map at any one time. Homing Bombs negate stealth, take away my best power meaning I have to scrap to beat him giving the next 3 time to catch up who I then have to beat. Running doesn't help, they just follow. Stealth... whats that?
Consider me firmly in the Ambushes are overpowered camp. The rest of the area was very good though.
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Two different responses.|
Originally Posted by EU_Damz
This leaves us with the mid level, the 20 - 35 range where players are just starting to flesh out in their powers. Now currently there arent that many ambush missions in this range [red caps missions and the titan class EB ambush aside] so would people agree that this is the best place to have the Praetoria level of ambushes? Or would you have them removed from the game entirely?
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Praetoria's starting area is the new recruiting land, it's the shiniest, and it should be the best foot forward to recruit. Now it may be that we're trying to 'recruit' challenge players, but I think that effort will fail will the massive drop off in difficulty as you leave Praetoria.
10x ambushes is excessive. Unless you're talking about Katie, it's just plain excessive. Chain ambushes are just really frustrating. Endurance runs are fine, when that's really the extent of the mission [Katie is a good example I feel actually], but they really feel overplayed in Praetoria.
Let's Dance!
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Which does nothing to help a brand new player who has no option other than Praetoria. Telling them "Hey, since you're new, we're going to drop you in by far the hardest content in the game. I hope you can swim! Har har har!" does not strike me as a good strategy to get the casual gamers City of Heroes was famous for to stick around.|
Originally Posted by Exodus_V
How about a warning sign at the creation screen letting everyone know that "Praetoria is designed to have periodic challenges that will tax your gaming skills. Paragon City or Rogue Isles might be a better choice if you are unable to handle ambushes and midly complex gaming situations."
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Furthermore... Yes, Stalkers being seen bothers me, and from what I've seen bothers many other Stalker players, as well. Hide is the cornerstone of their AT. Without it, a Stalker is not a lot more than a somewhat weaker Scrapper with almost no AoE. Having significant stretches of content where that is irrelevant makes one feel like he just brought a knife to a gunfight, and that is rarely a motivating feeling.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Aye, it looks like that. But it's not. Looks can be deceiving. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I say "energy punch" because the power they use looks like Energy Punch from Energy Melee. I don't know what it is or what damage it does (I haven't checked), but I do know it deals a LOT of damage, much more than your average Brawl does.
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PPD and Resistance I find are fine from level 6 or 8 onwards. Ditto with Syndicate from 10ish onwards. There's no real 1-6 group in Praetoria though (just downscaled higher level ones)
Ghouls are very binary I've personally found. Some of my characters absolutely slaughtered them, others got eaten alive by them or struggle.
Destroyers and Clockwork I bloody hate though. Clockwork have exotic attack types and never close in for melee. Destroyers are just cheating swine.
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| Furthermore... Yes, Stalkers being seen bothers me, and from what I've seen bothers many other Stalker players, as well. Hide is the cornerstone of their AT. Without it, a Stalker is not a lot more than a somewhat weaker Scrapper with almost no AoE. Having significant stretches of content where that is irrelevant makes one feel like he just brought a knife to a gunfight, and that is rarely a motivating feeling. |
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As Sam has said, though, that is ALL Ambushes do. They throw more than the mission settings worth of mobs at you, gutting any stealth or flight tactics you might otherwise have. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I've said it more times than I can count. Adding more NPCs and upping their levels doesn't make the encounter more interesting. Yes, it makes it 'harder' but not in a good way. Not in a way that is memorable.
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I would mind less if they actually obeyed standard spawning rules. But they don't. Fighting Ghouls at +0/x1 the mobs seem quite large as it is in comparison to other mob types. But I can deal with that. When I get ONE ambush that has the same number as two or three of those oversized mobs? That I can't deal with, no matter what powers or slotting I have at that level.
By curbing just how many spawn and how fast, you could still easily replicate the current settings with the difficulty settings.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Put it this way - I've seen companion NPCs of mine, lieutenants, go down to as little as three Resistance punches, one each from the three Resistance NPCs in a regular spawn. I've been brawled by these people to lose two thirds of my hit points in a single salve. I have not seen this in the old game, and back then I used to go +0x2/Tenacious as soon as I hit level 20. Hatchets and baseball bats never did this to my Scrappers or Brutes, but Resistance punches do.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Aye, it looks like that. But it's not. Looks can be deceiving.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Ah, the P.O.K.E. I've always hate NPC 'Brawl'. But this is so much worse...
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Put it this way - I've seen companion NPCs of mine, lieutenants, go down to as little as three Resistance punches, one each from the three Resistance NPCs in a regular spawn. I've been brawled by these people to lose two thirds of my hit points in a single salve. I have not seen this in the old game, and back then I used to go +0x2/Tenacious as soon as I hit level 20. Hatchets and baseball bats never did this to my Scrappers or Brutes, but Resistance punches do.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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This reminds me of an anecdote, one intended to highlight why I prefer location-aimed ambushes as opposed to player-aimed ones.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
As Sam has said, though, that is ALL Ambushes do. They throw more than the mission settings worth of mobs at you, gutting any stealth or flight tactics you might otherwise have.
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On the same Stalker in question, I ran the mission where Virgil Duray captures Crow and Helix, and that one started sending TEST ambushes at me. TEST are 30% resistant to everything, so they take a while to kill, but the ambushes wouldn't see me as they came. So I'd take on one, wait for the announcement of the next overlapping ambush, then pull the one I'm fighting aside and finish them elsewhere. That way, when the next ambush came, they came to the spot I was before, not to the spot where I was fighting at the time, allowing me to finish up, rehide and have just enough time to assassinate and pull them away before the next ambush came about.
That was, I'll admit, an interesting fight, because it didn't let me rest up and it was a fight with many enemies, but the benefit of that one was that my Hide wasn't being rendered irrelevant, giving me enough power to fight these guys AND still feel like I was holding my own. Sadly, very, very, VERY few ambushes anywhere in the game are location-targeted.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Wait did they get rid of the options to choose between Paragon City, Rogue isle and Praetoria the at the creation screen? A simple sign stating the potential for a real challenge lies in Praetoria might help...or hey new casual gamer try these zones first before opting into Praetoria.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Which does nothing to help a brand new player who has no option other than Praetoria. Telling them "Hey, since you're new, we're going to drop you in by far the hardest content in the game. I hope you can swim! Har har har!" does not strike me as a good strategy to get the casual gamers City of Heroes was famous for to stick around.
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If you're a new account on the GR edition your very first character HAS to be a Praetorian. |
Originally Posted by Exodus_V
Wait did they get rid of the options to choose between Paragon City, Rogue isle and Praetoria the at the creation screen? A simple sign stating the potential for a real challenge lies in Praetoria might help...or hey new casual gamer try these zones first before opting into Praetoria.
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So there is certainly a push from the Devs side for new people to go yellow side.
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Any new player has to make a Praetorian character before they get any other options. That's entirely new player who hasn't made other characters before. It does not apply to old players who buy Going Rogue.|
Originally Posted by Exodus_V
Wait did they get rid of the options to choose between Paragon City, Rogue isle and Praetoria the at the creation screen? A simple sign stating the potential for a real challenge lies in Praetoria might help...or hey new casual gamer try these zones first before opting into Praetoria.
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The intent behind this was to "coerce" new players to make characters in Praetoria, because that's where the latest, best content was, so as to give them a very good impression of the game, before they were allowed to go through the seven-year-old starter content of the hero-side game.
As I understand it, solving this is as simple as making a Praetorian and then abandoning that character in the tutorial to go make a new one, but again - a new player is unlikely to know enough to do that, just in the same way as people believed they HAD to do the Hollows content for years, simply because they were sent there on a mission.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I get that you don't like the new content, but again, I do feel strongly that you're not opening yourself up to the possibility that the Incarnate trials aren't for you. This last issue added an arc from Ray Cooling from 20-29. I finally did that in Ouro last weekend. Most boring crap I've ever played. But you know. It wasn't made for me, so I'm not going to complain about it. I'm tired of that kind of content. I like what the devs are doing. So yes, I'm going to argue against you and others when you try to turn it into content that I don't like. Why can't we all have some things we like in the game?
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But know, that I will respond to any thread I see that I disagree with. As I said I'm an unrepentant jerk. I certainly wouldn't allow myself to get angry at anything that jerk EvilGeko says, but only you control your emotions, not I.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.