Castle, explain THIS running mob. Nosferatu is a wuss.
By
ArwenDarkblade,
Posted on: 2010-09-10 06:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Well if you would stop wearing all those scanty costumes they wouldn't charge so much for the custom tailoring. |
Originally Posted by Castle
Good thing, too. These bullet proof vests are expensive.
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Wait, that's Charlie's Angels. Nevermind.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Maybe, Nos was running away because 3 of his AV buddies were defeated and he didn't want to be next.
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WAI. This was changed back about two, maybe three issues ago at player request due to snipers being virtually invulnerable to taunt. If the tank taunts ranged enemies they will come into the tank although it may take more than 1 taunt to get them to do so.|
Originally Posted by Canine
Is used to be that Carnie Attendants and Jugglers would stand at range and throw things at you and Marksmem/Riflemen would stay at range and shoot, forever. To deal with these mobs as a melee toon, you had to either move to them all individually, or find a piece of geometry to use to break LoS and force them to close on you.
Now, if I take my Stone/Fire scranker into a Carnie mission, I can lumber into a spawn, Taunt the one next door, and then just stand there and burn things, and as the number of mobs around me is reduced, the ones still at range start to run into melee. The same works with Council marksmen, but not Nemesis snipers. Yes, I've reported this. I also keep reporting my own bet bugbear. |
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Originally Posted by Canine
Mastermind pet AI. Specifically the Robotics pet AI, which INSISTS on running into melee range to fire a ranged attack, thus annoying the living wossname out of me, since I'm Bots/Traps/Mace and fully capable of keeping things at range through the application of Webs and caltrops.
Bots used to have an AI that was slightly screwy, but on the most part they'd stay at range and shoot. Not any more, and not for several issues now. It doesn't matter what orders I've got them on. They run into melee, and the only reliable way I've got to get them out of melee is Follow/Passive, any other order set leads to the pets going all over the place. |
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Mobs fleeing at the drop of a hat is unfun and sucks. MM pets doing stupid things is unfun and sucks.
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I fixed that for you - if pet AI wasn't so stupid, I'd fall asleep playing MMs.
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Originally Posted by Emberly
Mobs fleeing at the drop of a hat is unfun and sucks. MM pets doing stupid things is the only reason a MM needs to even look at the screen.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I love your accent, you should redo the voice over but this time add in color phrases in your native tongue.
Something like @#$%#$ Nosfertu what a @#$% coward
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Nah this crap happens quite frequently with alot of avs such as the clockwork king who just about always runs if you have any debuffs on the team. They should really make running away extremely rare. I understand the need to make things more realistic and interesting but you shouldn't have to chase npcs all over the map.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
Looks like he's bugged. I can't imagine why he wouldn't at least offer a token attack.
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I do not use "color phrases" no matter the language, unless I am truly angry at something. Profanity cheapens the soul and weakens the mind.
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Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
I love your accent, you should redo the voice over but this time add in color phrases in your native tongue.
Something like @#$%#$ Nosfertu what a @#$% coward |
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It also bolsters the ego and promotes the societal perception of worth, so I'd say it's a fair trade!
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But this would assume that all the AVs are tied as a single mob.|
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Maybe, Nos was running away because 3 of his AV buddies were defeated and he didn't want to be next.
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Since they are different spawn triggers for them, if they are tagged as a single mob, wouldn't all of them appear when only one was to be triggered?
As to Phantom Army, don't have one but have taken my MM up against the Master Illusionist version, and my pets would just ignore the MI and try and only take out the decoy, not the Phantom, Illusionists or Dark pets.
And, yeah, before i18 Nosferatu would pop in and immediately start his attacks, not run.
Has anyone tried this issue in the Nemesis Arc with Nosferatu? And seeing the same thing? Since super-sidekicking hit I now try and out-level that mission and turn down the difficulty just to clear it, because you can't drop the mission itself.
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nto too long after Villains came out, I chased a Deathsurge all over Cap Au Diable. I only had 4 bots at the time, and wasn't using any of my Traps. Never had a chance. Except for Web Grenade. The stupid thing wouldn't stand still. That was back in Issue 7.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
A friend and I were leveling two MM's together a while back. Robot/Storm (me) and Robot/Pain. We made Scrapyard run from us. That's right, a Giant Monster. He ran all over the place only a few seconds after we engaged. We eventually gave up. We didn't have the damage output at level 30 (that's right, 30) to kill him, and he didn't seem to want to stand still and let us try anyway.
I agree with Leandro, there is something seriously wrong with the run away code. |
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Originally Posted by Ura Hero
.If you want to see really poor MM pet behavior, make a Ninja MM. Those guys are just freaking nuts.
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There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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However, it also fills my fury bar.
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Originally Posted by Leandro
I do not use "color phrases" no matter the language, unless I am truly angry at something. Profanity cheapens the soul and weakens the mind.
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I've seen this Nosferatu behavior since i14. See my post here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...9&postcount=76
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Originally Posted by Janlee
And, yeah, before i18 Nosferatu would pop in and immediately start his attacks, not run.
Has anyone tried this issue in the Nemesis Arc with Nosferatu? And seeing the same thing? Since super-sidekicking hit I now try and out-level that mission and turn down the difficulty just to clear it, because you can't drop the mission itself. |
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At least not on the forums |
Originally Posted by Leandro
I do not use "color phrases" no matter the language, unless I am truly angry at something. Profanity cheapens the soul and weakens the mind.
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@MARTy McFly
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It's not just Nosferatu. There is at least one repeatable instance where if you attack a group of four enemies, one of them will take off running even if it's several levels above you. I'll post a video of that in a few hours; look for a thread called "Run Leo Run".
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Originally Posted by NordBlast
I've seen this Nosferatu behavior since i14. See my post here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...9&postcount=76
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This is what 3700 heroes in a single zone looks like.
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Even if NOT taunted (and I paid enough attention to know that they hadn't been when testing this out) then the various mobs will run into melee after lobbing a couple of attacks. And I saw nothing in any patch notes about it at the time I started noticing the behaviour.|
Originally Posted by Ura Hero
WAI. This was changed back about two, maybe three issues ago at player request due to snipers being virtually invulnerable to taunt. If the tank taunts ranged enemies they will come into the tank although it may take more than 1 taunt to get them to do so.
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It doesn't affect snipers at all. Nemesis snipers (Comets, Tirailleurs) will NOT move from their spawn location at all, the same with the infrequent Crey snipers.
It's also consistent - lumber into a large spawn of Council/5th/Council Empire for example, and while there are more than 3 or 4 other Council still in melee with me, the marksmen/rifles stay at range and shoot. As soon as I get to the last few mobs in melee, then the rifles stop shooting and start moving into melee, almost as if they're filling some invisible 'melee the tanker' quota.
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| Again, WAI. This was Red Name quoted back some years ago. MM pets are not designed to be invulnerable or to sit back and mind perfectly. If you want to see really poor MM pet behavior, make a Ninja MM. Those guys are just freaking nuts. |
If MM pets don't follow the MM's orders, then what's the point in them? They may as well be autonomous Controller/Dominator style pets if I can't use positioning and my secondary in combination to leverage their supposed ranged attribute to my advantage. You know, like any other AT can leverage positioning and any useful effects in their power pools to their advantage.
Anyway, I'm not totally sure that this is the best thread to continue discussing this, but I'm about to head out the door to work right now, and can't think of a better place to put it
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
As other people said, Nosferatu has always run, back in the over-rewarded nictus insurrection days I fought him a few times solo as an EB on my nova form PB (I couldn't do enough damage in dwarf form to kill him).
He often ran all over the map then which was really irritating when you were depending on a limited pool of insps to kill him before they ran out.
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Not in many cases. The old behavior for the Merc MM's Medic was wonky. He LOVED to brawl enemies, and even trying to use some kind of healing/buff/debuff power from his tricorder on the enemy he was brawling (the power never seemed to do anything, he just pulled his tricorder out, aim it at the enemy mob and then go back to brawling). Eventually his brawl was deleted from his moveset entirely.|
Originally Posted by Ura Hero
Again, WAI. This was Red Name quoted back some years ago. MM pets are not designed to be invulnerable or to sit back and mind perfectly. If you want to see really poor MM pet behavior, make a Ninja MM. Those guys are just freaking nuts.
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I don't mind that the little bots will run into melee to punch things, they have a punch attack, so they should use it. It's just odd that they get a little retarded trying to use it, even to the point of ignoring GoTo orders.
What's more is that the Protector Bots, who have no melee attack will blindly rush into melee! Why are they doing that?! They have no brawl, no short ranged blast, and they do it even when no other bots are in melee range to heal, beyond that their heal has a pretty good range on it already, so they wouldn't have to close in to heal like Merc's Medic would.
If that's WAI, why would they modify the Medic by deleting his Brawl attack? They both serve the same general purpose, and while odd and somewhat annoying the Medic's brawl was removed to alleviate the issue of his never ending attempts to punch the enemy.
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We're probably noticing the running of AVs and GMs more so simply because they're so immune to immobs and other mezzes that would keep them in place and they take so long to put down.
Throw a debuff anchor on a grey minion and it too will immediately run off.
The problem is that we expect an AV/GM not to have their morale break so quickly.
Also, and Castle acknowledges this is problematic, when they do run, they're going too far.
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I've been playing toons with immobs / other dirty tricks lately, so I haven't had many runners at all.
But, to throw a couple things out ...
Critter AI's always been wonky. Always. Mobs haven't been using powers given to them. Pets inheriting +recharge end up not using some powers. And so on.
We know that, ever since the dev team has grown, there've been coders poking around the engine, and, presumably, cleaning things up from the "Git 'er done" days -- presumably so that new features can be implemented. Sometimes, the changes have unforseen consequences.
Conjecture: maybe, just maybe, a dev tweaked something in the engine that had the unintended consequence that mob AI is /now/ WAI according to some "As Intended" model from years ago, and the devs have been making mobs based off an AI model that was brokety-broke ... and, now, no longer is.
Wild conjecture: we know the devs have been playing with timing issues for the last little while (OSA). Maybe someone tweaked a low-level timing issue that's had unforseen consequences?
And ... ummm ... if I were a mob under +7 (I've been on teams that could street sweep +6s) and saw a Repeat Offender style team (all [de]buff) come my way, I'd high tail it. Seriously. I'd be gone, other side of the map, out the door, renouncing my evil ways. Some mobs, especially from groups like Crey and the Council, should take off. In those cases, some control should be especially handy.
This game, as it is, is awfully simple with little or no thought to tactics needed for most situations. I'd /love/ to see mob AI get tweaked up.
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Yes, I know that others run too. IMO, Boss and higher shouldn't run at all. |
Originally Posted by Leandro
It's not just Nosferatu. There is at least one repeatable instance where if you attack a group of four enemies, one of them will take off running even if it's several levels above you. I'll post a video of that in a few hours; look for a thread called "Run Leo Run".
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But my post was specifically about Nosferatu. Out of 108 AVs and 2 DE Monsters I have in these 2 arcs, Nosferatu is only one who refuses to fight at all.
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This behavior was captured directly from a Pug team doing a Positron 1 TF.|
Originally Posted by KianaZero
Not in many cases. The old behavior for the Merc MM's Medic was wonky. He LOVED to brawl enemies, and even trying to use some kind of healing/buff/debuff power from his tricorder on the enemy he was brawling (the power never seemed to do anything, he just pulled his tricorder out, aim it at the enemy mob and then go back to brawling). Eventually his brawl was deleted from his moveset entirely.
I don't mind that the little bots will run into melee to punch things, they have a punch attack, so they should use it. It's just odd that they get a little retarded trying to use it, even to the point of ignoring GoTo orders. What's more is that the Protector Bots, who have no melee attack will blindly rush into melee! Why are they doing that?! They have no brawl, no short ranged blast, and they do it even when no other bots are in melee range to heal, beyond that their heal has a pretty good range on it already, so they wouldn't have to close in to heal like Merc's Medic would. If that's WAI, why would they modify the Medic by deleting his Brawl attack? They both serve the same general purpose, and while odd and somewhat annoying the Medic's brawl was removed to alleviate the issue of his never ending attempts to punch the enemy. |
Sorry, they coded it into your Bots.
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It also bolsters the ego and promotes the societal perception of worth, so I'd say it's a fair trade!
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Had this exact issue in the Mender Lazarus arc with my Katana/Regen scrapper|
Originally Posted by Quasadu
Yeah I think Nosferatu is bugged. When Issue 18 went live, he started doing this in the Mender Lazarus SF too.
I usually run one or two of those a week on my Dark/Elec brute and he didn't start running like that until Issue 18 dropped. I have heard that he was doing it in the past and must have been fixed at some point - but it looks like I18 broke him again. |
Very very frustrating as i would chase him, last some hits but he would just keep using his self heal. 20 mins and i only got him to half health before i lost patience and quit the mission. I initially thought it was because id used purple insps and parry to get my defence up to a level where he had severe trouble hitting me.
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I was ready to die against him, because I remember he was very hard to fight in an Ouro arc. So imagine my surprise when he started running all over the map. He didn't even attack me! Nosferatu has some really nasty attacks, but he decided to practice for a marathon instead.
Nosferatu: 1 2 3 4 5
Players of COH know that the above quote does not reflect the reality of the game. Critters run away whenever they feel like. Maybe you could somehow break the morale of a level 10 minion by killing a boss next to him, but come on. Nosferatu? A level 50 archvillain? I didn't even attack his minions! I was too busy running all over the place to try to get his attention.
He eventually found the entrance of the room and ran away towards the exit, until I lost his targeting reticle. I hate fighting in caves, so I didn't follow him, knowing he'd eventually be back. He did, and just stood there in the room looking at me (I swear: I moved location, and he turned around to face me). But he didn't attack me at all. So I dropped Phantom Army on him... and he immediately started running all over the place again!
After he disappeared out of the room and I lost target of him again, I started Fraps to record a video of it. While I was setting up, he came back and one of my pets attacked him, so I had to start the recording rather quickly in the middle of the fight.
Here is a link to the video. I added an introduction to it (basically what I said above) so it would have some context on YouTube; his crazy running starts at the 30 seconds mark.
Maybe I should have used the Crey Pistol.
When AE was just released, I made two MA arcs called "AVs, AVs, AVs..." Part 1 & 2 to be able to fight AVs on my ill/rad without doing flashbacks.
Each arc has 5 missions on the Demon farm map. Each mission has 11 named crates you can destroy. After destroying the crate, corresponded AV will be spawned on the map.
Spawned Nosferatu exhibited exactly the same behavior. He started to run from me without attacking, and I couldn't make him to start fighting. (IIRC it was Council version. I don't remember whether 5th column version exhibited the same behavior, I probably fought him on different (small) map)
Initially, I thought, that maybe I somehow screwed up the settings for Nosferatu. So, I exited arc, opened editor to see whether flee flag was set (it wasn't), saved arc, republished, went in... and the same behavior again. After that I decided to put Nosferatu on old Hess radar map where he has no place to run. Only there I was able to fight him.