I'm going to throw my two cents in on this as I haven't seen anyone make what seems to be a very logical suggestion.
I for one don't want to lose pieces that are useful, but I find that I don't use any of the legacy stuff that you're talking about because it does, in fact, look absolutely awful. Pixelated textures on tights just doesn't cut it. I say go in and revamp everything that has texture or pixelation issues, make it look nice, make sure new textures match up to the corresponding other textures in that set. Then take out everything old, unless there are significant changes made to them.
Basically I want a mix of option 1 and 2. As Memphis Bill said earlier, we're already cluttered as is and could benefit from subcategories so we don't need old nasty looking versions of things that have great new looks. However, if say, in reworking the steampunk texture you decide to add some geometry pieces to it and make it something kind of like the resistance chest detail (i.e. an armor piece in steampunk style), leave the old texture option as well. Only do this in the case of DRASTIC changes. If it's just upping the polycount and cleaning up the texture to make it look consistent then in the garbage with the old one.
The number of choices is already high enough that spending dev time on an improved way to select your item (divide lists into groups? or select an item, then extra features like textured surface, scratched etc?) seems like a high priority issue to me.
If that is done well, the problems with option 2 in your poll would be smaller.
The reason I myself lean towards option 2 is that the current rather bland textures are open to use with more imagination than pieces that are "locked" into only being for one particular design.
Let me show an example I tossed together:
I know, it is not a very good costume, but the point I wanted to make is that it uses costume parts in a way that I bet the designer did not originally plan for, and might not take into account during an update.
If you update the "Savage" body texture to improve its looks for the majority that use it "correctly", it might make it less suitable for other uses such as simulating the belly straps here.
If you update the "Horleus" face mask to show wrinkles on the fabric part, it will make it less suitable to be used for things like this, where what was designed as textile fabric is used as the skin and the "skin" showing through in the original mesh part of the texture can be seen as a facial tattoo.
By the way, if you fix the problem several people have been posting about that the ears show through the masks, this character would look like she had very strange ears (or none). That problem is still worth fixing though!
I don't use either of those combos currently, but I do have some more subtle ones on actual characters. Two of those characters already got costume problems by the shininess update making pieces that clipped with each other look like separate sections of different surfaces instead of parts of a whole. Individually the parts look better, but in the combo I used them they were less good than before.
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Problem with that is, David, the same was said about removing 'unused' Patron Power Pools a few issues back.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Anything's possible with enough dev time allocated, but my gut feeling is that almost everyone would prefer the look of 'new tights' and that 'classic tights' would gather dust. The goal would be to polish up the assets you already know and love, so they essentially look the same...but better.
Also, I still feel that this introduces unnecessary clutter into the system, reduces new user-friendliness, and ultimately hurts the game experience. |
Remember the unholy stink that one caused?
Thing is, when it comes to, say, shiny veruss non-shiny...there will be some players and some characters in fact that prefer non-shiny stuff. Say you have a stealth-armour ninja type. Why would he wear shiny armour? Thats a big no-no, cos shine is bad.
Or a big, battle-worn robot? Shiny doesn't last long in war-zone before it becomes, to use an MIB quote, 'old busted hotness'.
In all seriousness, the CC needs a sort out anyway. The Chest details list alone is stupidly long. What it could really do with is a second drop down menu;
-Chest details
____-Solid details (Chest plates, stealth webbing, anything physical)
____- Flat details (All the symbols and images that are used as chest details)
OR...Option 3; Re-texture all the old stuff, but give metallic things a 'shiny' and 'non-shiny' option. I think that's the only one I can see being a real problem, because I know for example the Tech Sleek pieces looked a whole world different from the old tech sleek, and sometimes it just doesn't work. Or maybe a 'matte' option.
I'm undecided. Both sound good. But so long as the new shiny is happening, I don't really mind. Although please, please, please go over the hair options for both make and female; the old ones look so horribly dated it's painful.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I personally lean towards this option.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
HYPOTHETICAL OPTION 2: We leave the old version alone and put the new version immediately below it in the Costume Creator.
Pro: Nothing is 'taken away.' Con: Outmoded art remains, clashes progressively more with newer, modern assets. Menus swell with 2 options for each basic piece, making it harder to navigate. |
First, even if you think the new part looks better in every way, somebody will disagree and prefer the old option. All you can hope for is the vast majority prefer the new costume part and the people using the old clashing pieces are few and far between.
Second, as long as the new menus to separate the old and new pieces are designed intelligently, they shouldn't be that much harder to navigate. Personally, I don't try to fly through the costume editor at speed when creating a costume. It's not a rush process. Either I know the part I'm navigating too, or I'm flipping through options.
Third, there's something to consider that goes with my first point:
Did you ever read Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud? You know how it's easier for people to project themselves onto a simple smiley face instead of a more detailed drawing? I feel something similar happens with costume parts (and not just faces). It's easier for a player to find a costume piece that "works" for what they want to use it for when it's less detailed.
When you guys update the piece and add more model and texture detail, it may not be the detail that the player was filling in with their mind.
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Possible grist for the mill: --non-animated tails were left in Costume Creator when Animated Tails were added. Do any of you use the non-moving ones at this point? |
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Leaning towards option 2 myself with submenus to help manage the costume database.
This is based on the new thigh high boots whose geometry changed in subtle but significant ways according to many characters. (I'm still on the fence about those items but the din from the uproar over it was enough to make me want to /sighquit CoX for about 3 months. 
)
Additionally, the tank top example Noble Savage links to shows me that some things that are nice textures and cutouts for graphic, classic looking superhero outfits may no longer work as simple tights patterns if bump maps and textures become too refined.
One area that sorely needs updating though, were you to be taking opinions on legacy items, are the full mask eye items. Firstly, these should be available for masks with hair. Secondly, the color mapping on them is pretty abysmal. Thirdly, the geometry is often a bit wonky. Yet these sort of Scarlet Witchy and Wolveriney three dimensional mask details are standard fare in classic hero and villain costume design. Makes sense that they were included with the i0 release of CoH. But they've never been updated nor added to in the 6+ year lifespan of the game.
So my vote again is option 2, with submenus to manage the costume item lists. And an unsolicited vote that the i0 full mask details be high on the reworking (and adding to!) priority list and availability for these be expanded to masks with hair.
Option 2 and created two drop downs one for legacy outifts and one for new outfits to reduce the clutter!
Option three: Overhaul the UI (it's so sorely needed) for better organization. You may need to add more dropbars but individually they'd be shorter and easier to navigate. To that end, leave the legacy stuff that people want under the Legacy tab and let the rest of us have the new bright-and-shineys.
Otherwise option 1.
Hello, my name is @Caligdoiel and I'm an altoholic.
Option 1.
I would rather have higher resolution models made, aswell as higher resolution textures created for those new high resolution models, and have them replace the old ones. By keeping the costume options that use lower polygon counts just show the age of the game. Yes that might ruin people's concepts, but concepts evolve, and don't NEED to remain exactly like it was in Issue 1. Some people will get upset, but I am sure they will get over it.
CHAMPION!
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Female leather sleeves for jackets still got the see through part between the sleeves and the gloves.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
5. Fix missing and broken pieces. I don't know how it can be justified for the Dev team to spend time up-rezzing pieces and not fixing what's been broken for a long time - a very long time. Really, I hate to be rough with you, David, but you've been pointed to a really broken part of the costume system and under your watch it hasn't been fixed yet. I regard that as a failure on your part and the other Devs involved. When are you going to fix the cape problem outlined here? |
Female widows still got the arachnos pattern broken in the inner legs...
Since I12... lol
Would be nice to see fixes for this, I reported this 3 times in the costume fix thread but sexy Jay doesnt read my post
Option 1.5. Update stuff like the tank tops and simple leather belt and whatnot, get rid of the old low-res versions. However, make shiny versions of ALL metallic items (like Robotic Arm -> Large Robotic -> Tech) while leaving in non-shiny Legacy options. Maybe add some glowmap versions for older stuff like the Circuitry/Electron textures/patterns, too.
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What about improved model detail? The tank tops and t-shirts in the game so are tight they look painted on(|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Sure. Not saying that this is in the queue or anything, but take a look at the tank top. Currently, it's a simple cut-out without any details. Now look at a real-world tank top (like this one http://www.undershirtguy.com/wp-cont...n-tank-top.jpg) and note the trim and stitching along the edges and bottom. Also note the subtle folds and even subtler fabric texture. These are things that could be improved in an updated texture. Would it still be a plain white tank top? Of course! But it'd be a lot more realistic and convincing.
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)!Even guys who wear tight shirts to show off their pecs have folding and bunching around their waist that texture doesn't suffice for.
On the female side of things, their tank tops and t-shirts cling like they came from a wet t-shirt contest, but without the see-through. Of course, I know some players who don't see that as a negative thing...
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Option 1
I don't use the ancient stuff, it looks hideous, especially on my machine with ultra mode cranked up.
As long as the updates are one or one, I see absolutely zero reason to hold on to the old stuff.
Short answer: option 1. If pressed for choice, I prefer consistency. New is better and I've started using less pre-NCSoft parts in almost all of my outfits.
Long answer: option 1 if things truly looked 'the same'.
Mentioning the tails: I don't use them as often as the new animated ones, no. However as pointed out in the 'Lost costume pieces' thread; somethings do get 'improved' rather than simply revamped like the thigh high boots parts. This is something I'd be against; alterations to the model that detract from it's original feel.
Conversely, I do think that the older pieces do need their textures updated. The 'tanker' top is a perfect example of this. On a male or huge body it is a solid cover, white is white, black is black, etc. On a female body; it looks like they've been in a wet t-shirt competition when you use lighter colours because of some overlay that adds a hint of skin-tone. And then there's the hair pieces. When we got a set of new ones they were done to a more detailed standard and some of the others just look shoddy.
If I had to choose, I'd go with option 1. I'd prefer some of the older parts to go if it meant they got a new updated part to replace it.
Tyger (50), Mutation-Controller Mind/FF - oldest Mind/FF on Union
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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My vote is for Option #1.
Later on,
Gate
@Generator
Mostly Pinnacle, with scattered alts on Liberty, Freedom, and Justice.
I had a great time playing with you!
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After reading this, I am fully behind Option 1. Always love new costume pieces, but it drives me nuts how long it takes sometimes to find stuff in the massive costume editor. Avoiding clutter is worth some minor change on a few of my costume pieces (and it seems likely in almost all cases I'd prefer the newer look anyway).
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Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Duly noted. If shiny finish and/or geometry were altered, I wouldn't have a problem with leaving the legacy version.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Option 1 for me too.
I'd love to see some updated tech, steampunk, etc. Especially updated hair!
If we go Option 1 everything will look shiney and new to a new player. The vets will just adapt like we have for the last 6 years.
@Radmind - Justice Server
ClintarCOH - Twitter
ClintarCOH - Twitter
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I agree that this should be seen to, but in the meantime, I've always used the left arrow for those. I didn't think of it initially, but if you're currently on 'none', (which is easily gotten to by pressing reset), pressing the left button will take you to the bottom of the list, and normally onto the matching overlay. I've found it dreadfully useful. |
Originally Posted by Red Valkyrja
I concur with Bill about the pieces that have associated patterns, that specific pieces pattern should be at the top of the list not the bottom. It's rather annoying to select Bio-Organic head/chest/etc and the have to scroll to the bottom of the pattern list for Bio-Organic.
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Option 1
To steal a line from someone who's completely fabulous, Option 1, cause I have to look at you.
"I used to make diddly squat, but I've been with the company for 16 years and have had plenty of great raises. Now I just make squat" -- Me
Pediatric brain tumors are the #1 cause of cancer related deaths in children.
Option 1
'nuff said
I vote Option 1 all the way. Update those suckers!
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I prefer option 1, but not exactly as stated. I am in favor of rotating out obsolete elements as fresh elements come in, but it need not be an absolute black-to-white change. The change should be sculptable as a sequence of gradients.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
How would you, the players, want to approach this issue?
HYPOTHETICAL OPTION 1: Old assets would be removed from the Costume Creator menu and you'd have the newer, updated ones instead. HYPOTHETICAL OPTION 2: We leave the old version alone and put the new version immediately below it in the Costume Creator. |
How about adding a system that works like this:
- when a new issue goes live, included in the issue is a list of costume elements under consideration for 'going out of fashion'.
- whenever a player logs into a character, the game checks that character's costumes against the list and sends an alert to the player that their costume is 'going out of fashion' (alerts like: a chat message aka the market 'you have x sold items', or maybe even a popup saying 'Serge from Icon wants to see you'. Heh, he might even have a new mission for you which could give you a tailor discount as a reward.)
- whenever a player brings up his costume change selection gui, any of the listed costumes having elements that are 'going out of fashion' include a yellow warning icon, and any of the listed costumes having elements that have 'gone out of fashion' include a red warning icon.
- when that character is brought to an icon/facemaker and enters the gui, the yellow 'going out of fashion' and red 'gone out of fashion' icons are included next to any gui control that controls the element that is in fashion danger.
- the player may click on either fashion state icon to open a petition gui (as a new type of petition) to request the element be retained or brought back 'in fashion'.
- a window of time is opened after the issue release for devs to consider any fashion petitions. the going-out-of-fashion list may be altered and resubmitted as devs feel benefits the players based on the feedback.
- once the window is closed, a patch is added to finalize removal of all going-out-of-fashion items for that issue.
This seems like enough to make seasonal rotations of items workable for both the players and the devs.
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Possible grist for the mill: --non-animated tails were left in Costume Creator when Animated Tails were added. Do any of you use the non-moving ones at this point? |
I suppose it's possible that even if one has such data it is not negative to ask this kind of question on top. And in my case I would say I don't need the static tails and I don't mind them going away. But I do hope that you're not lacking the in-game data for this question.
option 1
without a second thought
Option 1 please sir.
I'm officially ambivalent - I see the pros and cons of both sides quite clearly, and it's not my place to say that someone using the old "head wings" as cranial ridges should have that functionality removed. Meanwhile, the look of the game as a whole is beginning to suffer from "art drift." Making the game uniform is going to mean making it crisper all the way around.
That said, I came here from the Dev Digest. The post from Noble Savage that comes before the first post of this thread deals with new costume pieces losing functionality if shader options are turned down to a certain level.
Would revamped costume pieces be fully compatible with lower graphics options? Some of my friends (virtual and real) have to run the game on lower settings if they want to run it at all. I may be showing my ignorance of graphical design here, but if replacing old/adding new costume pieces could finally push the game into "unplayable" on low end systems, I'm not sure I could support it at all.
In other words, no matter what the choice, I hope you guys have a legacy system in the back somewhere to try it all out on.
--Einstein