Thank you for soliciting the forum population's opinion! Kudos for being active, too! My 2 inf after reading 501 posts in this thread...
Option 2. Only add.
Thank you, Noble Savage, for confirming that nothing will be removed from the system.
Here were my notes as I read up to that point...
Based on bAss_ackwards's examples of the old vs. new head wings detail, I firmly vote option 2 to keep everything. The new wing looks impressive, yes, but the old wing is exactly as I want it for a costume I actively use and enjoy BECAUSE it is low-rez. It flowed much better with the costume than the new, hi-rez head wing option.
Based on RedSwitchblade's example of the shoulder rings I plead for option 2 to keep everything. I use them to depict energy arcs on some tech/magic-themed characters. Certainly I wouldn't object to more options with more motion in the same form as electrical arcs, but on some of my characters they would still want to have the existing rings option just the way they are, thank you very much.
Based on gigas'S example of the psyche detail, I emphatically vote option 2 to keep everything. The psyche pattern is exactly as I want it for my main character I actively use and enjoy BECAUSE it is the way it is. Yes most people use horrendous, eye-gouging colors. But I choose blue/green for a water look that is my favorite among all the characters I have created. Incidentally, it has also won me quite a few costume contests. A sharper texture would ruin the effect.
Based on repeated emphasis that the new pieces are preferred over the old, I respectfully disagree. My last three characters created all use legacy pieces in preference over (or as a majority in combination with) the shiny new options from GR and booster packs. I was in a mood for a softer, euphoria look. The new pieces are too sharp and too specific for what I was aiming for. Will I use the new pieces? Sure, when the mood strikes. Until then, I'm still enjoying mostly classic options.
Sorry, the votes and logic for Option 1 did not personally make me believe the game would be better for having the old legacy options gone.
Will option 2 make a lot of clutter? Yes, but clutter will only be adding to an existing problem not creating a new one. If clutter is the only thing keeping all the legacy costume options from being available, then adding another tier to the submenu is the solution.
*** The versatility in the costume creator is one of this game's big strengths. More options inspire more creativity. And more creativity encourages longer interaction. Bottom line: More costume options can encourage more game subscribers to play longer.
Of all the reasons people leave CoH, having too many options in the costume creator is one so rare I have yet to hear it.
Joe might think that legacy and modern costume pieces are the same except for graphics upgrade, but Jane will want both because she sees two separate options and plans a costume for each.
*** Avoiding menu work may be preferable to you, Noble Savage, as it will take up resources available for redos. But please, please, consider that it may be equally preferable to the general player base that the UI is upgraded rather than (or at least along side) the costume pieces. What good are new shiny pieces if they (1) replace old favorites which are begged to be left alone and (2) cannot be found at the tailor because of an outdated UI?
/end notes
Thank you once more, Noble Savage, for being the most interactive Devs on the boards currently. It's one of the reasons these forums are the best in the industry!
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I'd like to throw in a vote for this. This would be EXCELLENT, and help a lot of theme issues where you really want a certain type of character's body (say, monstrous fur) but you'd also like them to wear clothes (like say, a tank top.)
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Originally Posted by Tannim222
I was thinking how great it would be to have some of the "skin-type" costume pieces be moved from the costume setting and changed to an actual Skin category. The Skin category would include such pieces as Stone, Metallic, Monstrous, Plant, Zombie, etc...
This way, more costume pieces can be chosen to go over this new skin type, instead of the skin type just being the costume piece itself. |
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This TBH!!!|
Originally Posted by Equation
David,
If we are talking about the evolution of how this works, why not try and do what the story team did? make a tool for players to craft some of our own costumes, and like dev choice, the best submitted go in the game. only problem would be the loading of patterns. other folks, ideas? |
And add tools for other sorts of asset creation, seriously there are some extremely talented people out here in User Land, while many wouldn't use/submit stuff many would, and some would be good enough for inclusion.
So add tools (or addons for existing programs) that allow asset creation in a format you need, add a peer review thread/board. The best of the peer reviewed stuff can then be reviewed by Devs and added to game.
Otherwise Option 3...
That is option two but with extraneous textures removed a while later.
Oh and can you make Steampunk chest look somewhat steamier... and punkier...?
After some thought I would choose option 1.
Thought having old stuff kind of faded works on a concept character I have that's a homeless man so having flashy stuff is a bit off with him. That said I still would like updated graphics because I can get the bum look still with proper color choices. Besides one Alt out of ... (lost count) many is a small price to pay!
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We've never gotten a consistent answer as to whether or not this is even mechanically possible. Right now, most "with skin" options use a full-on skin texture with nothing more than colour mask patterns. What you're asking for is multiple texture layering, such that you have a fabric-looking texture overlaid over a stone-looking texture, just as a random example. I'm not sure precedent exists to prove the engine can even do that.|
Originally Posted by Feycat
I'd like to throw in a vote for this. This would be EXCELLENT, and help a lot of theme issues where you really want a certain type of character's body (say, monstrous fur) but you'd also like them to wear clothes (like say, a tank top.)
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HOWEVER
Go and check out the Science Booster Pack head gear, the ones that have straps that meet around the back of the head. These have unique geometry on the front where the visors and plates are, but the straps themselves appear to be nothing more than a texture overlaid over over the skin texture of the head. If this is indeed true, this provides precedent and evidence that the engine can, in fact, do this, which in turn empowers us to suggest just that, at the very least.
The only way to handle clothes over non-smooth, non-human skins that I can think of is to use Jackets and Skirts/Shorts approach of putting independent geometry over the base model. The problem is that in order for this geometry to not clip and meld with the body, it has to be offset by quite a bit, making skintight clothes impossible to make with it, and producing items which end up making the body VERY bulky.
It's up to the art team to tell us (hopefully directly here on the forums) what can and cannot be done or, optionally, what will and what most decidedly WON'T be done, so as to steer us into knowing what to expect.
*idle point of fact*
Champions Online does not, in fact, have the ability to layer textures as described, or at least did not last time I tried it. I'm not sure any game does. The best I can quote is decals in most games, and I haven't even seem much of those since the original Half-Life which managed to curve explosion scorching around complex shapes.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Opt 1
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There's always the option of going with something similar to the Roman armor chest details.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The only way to handle clothes over non-smooth, non-human skins that I can think of is to use Jackets and Skirts/Shorts approach of putting independent geometry over the base model. The problem is that in order for this geometry to not clip and meld with the body, it has to be offset by quite a bit, making skintight clothes impossible to make with it, and producing items which end up making the body VERY bulky.
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Option 1 all the way
If you can replace an old piece with something extremely similar but with crisper textures, updated shaders, etc. I really don't see why the old piece would need to exist. And I don't want to have to look at them on other characters 
Ok so in regards to updating stuff, I really think some of the weapons could stand some updating. Lots of cool swords options; axe has some cool options and unlocks...I would like to request some additions to the rifle and mace section. Mace really is limited in a way especially if you prefer tech looking toons.
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They're still bulky and they still leave a gap between skin and armour. Decent for an armour plate, but really not something you can use for skintight clothing.
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Originally Posted by Shadow State
There's always the option of going with something similar to the Roman armor chest details.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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As long as the items don't change (see: old thigh-high boots versus new thigh-high boots), I vote for option 1. I'd like to see the old items in the new hotness.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
But as always, I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about this. Do me a favor and please keep your posts short and to the point.
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--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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I've spent a few hours reading this thread now (my poor defender waiting patiently in his tip mission for me to get back to him) because I felt this subject important enough that when I responded I wanted it to be as informed as possible, as opposed to a "drive-by commentary." In reading 22 pages, I've seen many points I wished to counter or support, as well as make a few myself. This response has made that all unnecessary, you've wasted most of my afternoon with you measured and reasonable response, and I appreciate it greatly |
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Hey, guys. Just wanted to thank everyone for casting a vote and for helping us get a better picture of what the playerbase is thinking. Here's my takeaway from reading the 22+ pages of thoughts on the topic: Arguments on both sides were compelling to the point where a third option, perhaps involving the menu setup, seems like the best way to satisfy all parties. This is NOT a promise of future action, but it's the view I'll express on your behalf.
So yay--everyone wins.  We'll make every effort to create new pieces that give you all better options in areas that might be lacking. And don't worry, Option 2 folks--nothing will be removed from the system. If anyone would like to comment further about specific costume pieces, please don't hesitate to post in the All Things Art thread. Cheers, Noble Savage |
I think the one thing more people agreed on than anything else in this thread is that a cleaner, better organized CC menu is needed. Individually, and even as sets, I like most of the newer costume pieces much better than most of the older ones, but there are exceptions. I like many of the revamps, like the Gladiator shoulders... I was very happy with those and couldn't imagine why anyone wouldn't also be, though clearly many others were. I would never support depriving someone of the choices that allow them to make their characters look the way they want them to. For instance, I have a character that's fully greyscale, because he's a black and white TV serial character brought to life, and that just wouldn't work if Ted Turner got on the art team and made it mandatory that Sam the Space Ranger was "colorized." Everything can suit a purpose.
I think a lot of the graphics upgrades on costume parts look wonderful, and in a case-by-case basis, I can see some old ones being removed in favor of new ones, but it's probably not a great idea to turn that into broad policy.
Dear NCsoft, if you go through with this shutdown you've guaranteed you'll not see another dime from me on any project you put out, ever.
http://xx-starhammer-xx.deviantart.com/
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I need sub-menus. I love sub-menus. I think we need more sub-menus for existing items. Like you know how we have sneakers with and without socks? I'd like to see a third option added in there of sneakers with tights instead of socks. And while we're at it, certain items that have room for sub-menus but don't should be given this kind of treatment. I'm definitely talking about bracers here! I want bracers with tights under them... up to the wrist and also covering the whole hand. I hate that bracers are bare arm only.|
Originally Posted by Angelxman81
6 years playing this game, hours creating toons, tweaking costumes and you guys still think we need sub-menus and stuff? I got all memorized!
I also want devs to take hair "to the next level" (WW favourite phrase) and they give us animated hair like Belladonna Vetrano. I got a crush on her  |
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Honestly, I don't see that "Eden" top getting anything but maybe stitching around the border. I think it's conceptually part of the idea that it is just hanging in space with no way to support it. Strings would not be required.
It's probably glued down. |
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
I would support this. In fact, I'd say that a lot of the "tight" legacy pieces could be ported into a menu called "body paint" and left basically as-is.
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Thing is, in both of those examples the low res version is more versatile.
That's why I like that legacy tailor suggestion, which is the best of both options. |
IMHO I would have to select option #1. Also while you are in there tweaking stuff bring nipples back!
Option 1.
Honestly, if all your doing is giving higher res textures to the old stuff, there is no reason to keep the low res items still there. Who would use it? As long as your not changing the texture or look, as people already discussed with the metallic pieces.
IMO the tights in this game, all need a drastic update. They were good in2004 but now, compared to all the new stuff in the game, they just don't stack up. They dont color right, they don't look like fabric, they look like colored skin.
And honestly, they don't look good. If the game is going to stay up to date, some of the old stuff needs to be purged. Some people won't like it, but it's better that the game as a whole looks good.
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
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In certain instances, I would, as would any number of people here. There is a beauty in simplicity, especially when used as a bridging piece between more complex costume parts.|
Originally Posted by Ice_Wall
Honestly, if all your doing is giving higher res textures to the old stuff, there is no reason to keep the low res items still there. Who would use it? As long as your not changing the texture or look, as people already discussed with the metallic pieces. |
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| IMO the tights in this game, all need a drastic update. They were good in2004 but now, compared to all the new stuff in the game, they just don't stack up. They dont color right, they don't look like fabric, they look like colored skin. |
Well, you got one thing right.
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| And honestly, they don't look good. If the game is going to stay up to date, some of the old stuff needs to be purged. Some people won't like it, but it's better that the game as a whole looks good. |
I will never support the removal of any costume options, even if I personally may never use a piece, or think it's ugly. No matter what the devs do, or how pretty the individual parts are, you will still have ugly-looking costumes. There is an art to making a good costume (and some of the best I've seen are very simple). Some people just don't have the talent to do so on their own.
P.S. Yes, I realize that David has already decided what his recommendation is, and that to some extent the discussion at this point is moot, but the above post is almost completely counter to my thinking.
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Don't know if anyone addressed this, but I can say that with only one exception I have changed all my tail-"equipped" characters with the new animated tail version of what they used to have. HOWEVER, the one exception is really a bad situation. I have a character named The Grey Reptile, who is Huge body type. I looked at the animated reptile tail, but I wouldn't use it if you paid me. It looks like a thin snake is dangling from his back end. For Huge body type, there should be a wider version of that tail. Preferably one that has less and slower oscillation.
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Originally Posted by Novapulse
That said, to answer your question, I can't see any reason I would ever choose one of the older non-animated tails. |
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Hi David, thanks for looking out for everyone's interests. With a game where its difficult if not impossible to please everyone, you're doing a great job at trying to make as many players happy as possible. That's quite a feat!
A thought did occur to me though, if the recommendation is going to be an update the costume creator UI, and add new, updated art pieces, then would it be possible to create another option as well?
I was thinking how great it would be to have some of the "skin-type" costume pieces be moved from the costume setting and changed to an actual Skin category. The Skin category would include such pieces as Stone, Metallic, Monstrous, Plant, Zombie, etc...
This way, more costume pieces can be chosen to go over this new skin type, instead of the skin type just being the costume piece itself.